Ukraine thread -

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Ukraine thread -

Post by madd0ct0r »

BBC News
Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has warned that protests in Ukraine are "getting out of control".

He described violent clashes between anti-government protesters and police as "scary" and accused EU politicians of stirring up the situation.

Tuesday saw an uneasy standoff on the street of the capital after a second consecutive night of clashes.

Young men threw fireworks and petrol bombs at police guarding the road leading up to the Ukrainian parliament.

Police beat some protesters.

Protesters have been camped out in Kiev since late November, angered by the government's turn to Moscow and its rejection of a planned treaty with the EU.
People standing near the fighting reported receiving a text message shortly after midnight on Tuesday, which said: "Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a unsanctioned rally."

Mobile phone operator KievStar denied sending the messages and it is unclear who did.

Meanwhile, peaceful protesters have blamed a little-known far-right group, Right Sector, for carrying out the violence.

Former boxing champion and opposition figure Vitali Klitschko has also accused the government of paying thugs nicknamed "titushki" to delegitimise the protests and create a pretext for the imposition of a state of emergency.

Russia's foreign minister: Moscow does not want to "put oil on the fire"

BBC Russian spoke to several suspected "titushki" detained by the opposition activists.

One, a student called Nikolai Ignatenko, said: "We weren't told anything about what to do. We stood by the metro and waited. They gave us hammers - that's all".

Artyom Nemchenko, a college student, said he had done it for money after seeing an offer online, and that they had been instructed to "stir up trouble".
the Indpedent warns the EU supporting protestors are becoming bitter about being abandoned.

The men and women protesters of Kiev’s Independence Square turn out on the bitterly cold streets of Kiev because they want a future as part of the European Union.

Their anger erupted in November when President Viktor Yanukovych backed out of a trade and political deal with the bloc and instead the former Soviet nation forged even closer ties with Russia. But as the months have passed, and new, repressive laws aimed at crushing the demonstrations have been signed, many are calling for tougher retaliatory measures from the institutions in Brussels that they hold so dear.

In the early days, the familiar gold stars and bright blue of the EU logo were seen on flags, beamed on buildings and even painted on faces.

Now they are harder to spot. A more common sight over the last few days has been smoke and fireworks soaring into the night sky; buses burning on broken paving slabs; riot police crouched on the ground, their shields up and ready for the blows....

...EU officials have condemned the new laws. The Swedish Foreign Minister, Carl Bildt, called them the “most solid package of repressive laws that I have seen enacted by a European parliament for decades”. After a meeting in Brussels, EU foreign ministers urged Ukraine to reverse laws they said would “significantly restrict the Ukrainian citizens’ fundamental rights of association”.

Yet at the same time, the foreign ministers again committed themselves to signing the association agreement Mr Yanukovych backed out of in November “as soon as Ukraine is ready”. It has raised questions about the mixed messages the EU is sending to Kiev.

“The association agreement should still be on the table for Ukraine, but not necessarily for the present administration, which has compromised itself by refusing to sign in Vilnius and now by introducing draconian unconstitutional laws and using violence against the Euro-Maidan [protesters],” Jacek Saryusz-Wolski, Polish MEP and vice-president of the centre-right European People’s Party, told The Independent. He said the agreement should remain and the EU should “wait for a president who is credible and has good intentions – not only to sign but also to implement – which is not the case of Yanukovych,” he added.

BBC again
No compromise

Ever since the crisis began (two months ago exactly, after President Yanukovych announced he was freezing negotiations with the European Union over a landmark trade and political treaty), it has been marked by a notable lack of any conceivable compromise that could break the impasse.

Whether the anti-government movement is justified in its demands or not, it is difficult to see how Mr Yanukovych can submit in any way to a scenario that spells no less than the end of his political life - or maybe worse.
The protestors are media savvy - the catapult (viral gold in itself) also had it's own twitter account. If the far right have joined the protests, I'd be surprised if they were pro EU, meaning that even if the movement wins (unlikely IMO) it'll be fractured very quickly.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by K. A. Pital »

Neo-fascists aren't so much pro-EU as they are anti-Russia. The general logic is that in the EU Eastern European neo-fascism (Hungary, Baltics) is tolerated up to a degree, whereas the current government isn't nationalistic and fascistic enough, although corrupt to an extreme degree.

Ukraine now has the perfect ingredients for the most rapid resurgence of fascism since Golden Dawn in Greece.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Thanas »

Are you saying the protesters are fascists, Stas?
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:Are you saying the protesters are fascists, Stas?
Core of the violent protesters is composed of Ukrainian neo-fascists, yes. I also consider Hungary's Jobbik a neo-fascist political party, and the guys who shout "Bendera forever" and openly praise a fascist collaborator who was behind the Volyn massacre are most certainly even more fascist than Jobbik. It is also true that since they are very radical and anti-Russia, they have dominated the protests pretty much since the "non-violent" component flew out of the window.

The above doesn't mean I think the government of that sorry failed state doesn't deserve to go down in flames and be annihilated by anyone, which includes the fascists. Sometimes it's a strange situation where thugs and bandits are fighting fascists. In any case - if the fall of Yanukovich harms Putin's Neo-Eurasian bullshit empire plans, I don't care who exactly comes to power or brings the current Urkaine government down.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Thanas »

I think the fascists part of the movement is largely overblown by the press, especially the Russian one, who always likes to pain everything as a war against [insert undesirable group here]. IMO the vast majority are people who want democracy and get rid of the Russian-sponsored oligarchs.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:I think the fascists part of the movement is largely overblown by the press, especially the Russian one, who always likes to pain everything as a war against [insert undesirable group here]. IMO the vast majority are people who want democracy and get rid of the Russian-sponsored oligarchs.
I'm getting the information from Ukrainians in Kiev. It's quite certainly "Svoboda" and the ultra-right leading the charge now, since the liberals are too weak while the Nazis have ample and battle-hardened manpower not afraid to go behind bars (which you now can - just today a law went into force which provides a 10 years sentence for obstructing access to government buildings, like the Parliament). The others are watching.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Irbis »

Thanas wrote:I think the fascists part of the movement is largely overblown by the press, especially the Russian one, who always likes to pain everything as a war against [insert undesirable group here]. IMO the vast majority are people who want democracy and get rid of the Russian-sponsored oligarchs.
Yeah, completely overblown :roll:

Let's see, Volyn Massacres? Ethnic cleansing carried out by Ukrainian Insurgent Army with cooperation of Reichskommissariat Ukraine, that killed first 200.000 Ukrainian Jews of that region, then about 70,000-100,000 Poles. Man who inspired it, Stepan Bandera, and his militia, weren't just fascists, they were full blown Nazi collaborators. Some of them, like Demjanjuk, wore SS uniforms all time - and now, modern Ukrainians, in an attempt to distance themselves from this awful past, only gave them several dozen monuments, street names, and museums. List of example ones, just of top guy, his subordinates have their own share. Seen any Himmler monuments recently?

If you check, all of these are in west, extremely nationalist part of Ukraine. None of them are in the east - because these parts actually kept their ethnic mixup and rabid nationalism never took hold there. Do tell, are photos like this or this (the symbol paraded in background is SS emblem, by the way) are Kremlin propaganda too, or maybe, just maybe the accusations (not only from Russia, have Israeli example) have a point? :roll:

There might be people who 'just want democracy' but you'd be hard pressed to find them in most of the demonstrations. Big parts of those are either outright fascists, or supporters of parties that differ from presidential one only in the fact they were made by oligarchs from the west, not east. Yulia Tymoshenko is prime example of these - despite rosy pictures painted in the west, she is almost as bad as Yanukovych, sadly, now there is no one clearly worth voting for. This is how the demonstration differ from 2005 - back then, there was hope, today, Yanukovych is back in power as they turned out to be even worse leaders than him.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Thanas »

Yes yes, and I am sure the greeks are nazis or communists too based on what emblems some loonies in the back of mass demonstrations are carrying. Meanwhile, they are still a minority and the leaders have condemned the violence. Yes, even the far-right leaders.

Now, if you can show some statistics which state that the vast majority of people who demonstrate against the oligarchs are fascists....
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by mr friendly guy »

On a slight tangent. The events in Ukraine is a manifestation of the underlying tensions between the West, particularly the EU vs Russia and Putin's dream of USSR mark II the Eurasian Union. Putin of course has expended lots of effort to try and secure Ukraine back in Russia's orbit and away from the EU. In fact some sources like the Spiegel have pretty much said Putin has outfoxed the West.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 39286.html

I am curious whether people in Russia and Ukraine think Putin has the upper hand in his dealings with the West vis a vis Ukraine.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Thanas »

I certainly think that the Ukraine situation is a masterclass in how ruthless diplomacy can lead to results. The west really is getting schooled there by Putin, as they were on Syria.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Kane Starkiller »

I wouldn't say he outfoxed the West as much as he simply offered much more concrete benefits if they accept and consequences if they refuse than EU did. AFAIK he offered to buy $15 billion of Ukrainian debt and reduce gas price by a third. EU didn't really offer anything in the short term other than demand Tymoshenko be released without any concrete reward.
EU leaders are either comically inept or they judge that, with balance of power swinging from Russia to Germany and France, Ukraine's alignment with EU is ultimately inevitable so there is no rush.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

Can the EU even do anything right now regarding diplomacy? Last I checked they couldn't agree on relatively simple things and their precious Eurozone was a fucked up mess because they never planned for anything resembling emergencies or damage control (AKA: how to prevent Greece from tanking the Euro singlehandedly). How would they persuade Ukraine that they wouldn't austerity them to death? Putin at least has this whole RUSSIA STRONG image.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by The Xeelee »

Well the whole point of the eurozone was you had to meet certain conditions so you couldn't tank the euro singlehandedly. Of course, no one had the bright idea of checking if they were lying.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

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The Xeelee wrote:Well the whole point of the eurozone was you had to meet certain conditions so you couldn't tank the euro singlehandedly. Of course, no one had the bright idea of checking if they were lying.
Or did not want to appear as racists and refuse a doubtful country entry, as was the case with the German Government at the time.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Thanas »

They even resurrected the Roman testudo.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Elheru Aran »

What I love is the picture of a dude with a colander on his head...

Seriously though. It's pretty impressive how shield tactics have held up throughout history.

Now if those protestors had cavalry things could get interesting, but let's not give them ideas... right now I'm honestly not sure which side to be on.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Thanas »

How would cavalry change anything? No modern horse is going to charge into that.

As to the demonstrations itself, I am now convinced that the peaceful element among the protesters has been forced off the streets by the security forces while only the hardcore element remains. There is no good side anymore.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Elheru Aran »

Hm, good point with the 'modern horse'. Now that I think about it, it took heavy cavalry to defeat the legions and that was in the late Western Empire. These guys aren't likely to come up with cataphractii anytime soon.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

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Elheru Aran wrote:Hm, good point with the 'modern horse'. Now that I think about it, it took heavy cavalry to defeat the legions and that was in the late Western Empire. These guys aren't likely to come up with cataphractii anytime soon.
No. Heavy cavalry on its own did not defeat the legions, especially not catafractarii. That is just plain wrong.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by The Xeelee »

Thanas wrote:
The Xeelee wrote:Well the whole point of the eurozone was you had to meet certain conditions so you couldn't tank the euro singlehandedly. Of course, no one had the bright idea of checking if they were lying.
Or did not want to appear as racists and refuse a doubtful country entry, as was the case with the German Government at the time.

Well yes AND that.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by cosmicalstorm »

I like this take on the riots
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=254_1390583871
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Rogue 9 »

Picture 32 is interesting. Why would the police be pitching Molotovs at the protesters? Isn't it generally the other way around, or are the Ukrainian police out of better options?
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Simon_Jester »

The Xeelee wrote:Well the whole point of the eurozone was you had to meet certain conditions so you couldn't tank the euro singlehandedly. Of course, no one had the bright idea of checking if they were lying.
The point of the Eurozone was to make sure you, as a country, wouldn't tank the euro singlehandedly. It did nothing to ensure that you couldn't.
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Re: Ukraine thread -

Post by Siege »

Thanas wrote:As to the demonstrations itself, I am now convinced that the peaceful element among the protesters has been forced off the streets by the security forces while only the hardcore element remains.
Is it though? From what I understood the really violent riots are in a different location from the square where the majority of protesters are, although the mood is far from pleasant there either. No doubt there's some radicalization, that tends to happen when people get beaten, tortured and shot to death, but I writing everybody off as bad sounds a little simplistic and easy to me.
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