How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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Washington Post
The hidden history of the CIA’s prison in Poland
On a cold day in early 2003, two senior CIA officers arrived at the U.S. Embassy in Warsaw to pick up a pair of large cardboard boxes. Inside were bundles of cash totaling $15 million that had been flown from Germany via diplomatic pouch.

The men put the boxes in a van and weaved through the Polish capital until coming to the headquarters of Polish intelligence. They were met by Col. ­Andrzej Derlatka, deputy chief of the intelligence service, and two of his associates.

The Americans and Poles then sealed an agreement that over the previous weeks had allowed the CIA the use of a secret prison — a remote villa in the Polish lake district — to interrogate al-Qaeda suspects. The Polish intelligence service received the money, and the CIA had a solid location for its newest covert operation, according to former agency officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the interrogation program, including previously unreported details about the creation of the CIA’s “black sites,” or secret prisons.

The CIA prison in Poland was arguably the most important of all the black sites created by the agency after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. It was the first of a trio in Europe that housed the initial wave of accused Sept. 11 conspirators, and it was where Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the self-declared mastermind of the attacks, was waterboarded 183 times after his capture.

Much about the creation and operation of the CIA’s prison at a base in one of the young democracies of Central Europe remains cloaked in mystery, matters that the U.S. government has classified as state secrets. But what happened in Poland more than a decade ago continues to reverberate, and the bitter debate about the CIA’s interrogation program is about to be revisited.

The Senate Intelligence Committee intends to release portions of an exhaustive 6,000-page report on the interrogation program, its value in eliciting critical intelligence and whether Congress was misled about aspects of the program.

The treatment of detainees also continues to be a legal issue in the military trials of Mohammed and others at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

And in December, the European Court of Human Rights heard arguments that Poland violated international law and participated in torture by accommodating its American ally; a decision is expected this year.

“In the face of Polish and United States efforts to draw a veil over these abuses, the European Court of Human Rights now has an opportunity to break this conspiracy of silence and uphold the rule of law,” said Amrit Singh, a lawyer with the Open Society Justice Initiative, which petitioned the court on behalf of a detainee who was held at the Polish site.

Wanted: A better location

The story of a Polish villa that became the site of one of the most infamous prisons in U.S. history began in the Pakistani city of Faisalabad with the capture of Zayn al-Abidin Muhammed Hussein, better known as Abu Zubaida, in March 2002. The CIA needed a place to stash its first “high-value” detainee, a man who was thought to be closely tied to the al-Qaeda leadership and might know of follow-on plots.

Cambodia and Thailand offered to help the CIA. Cambodia turned out to be the less desirable of the two. Agency officers told superiors that a proposed site was infested with snakes. So the agency flew Abu Zubaida to Thailand, housing him at a remote location at least an hour’s drive from Bangkok.

The CIA declined to comment, as did Polish authorities through their country’s embassy in Washington. Derlatka, the Polish intelligence officer, did not return messages seeking comment.

Several months after the detention of Abu Zubaida, the CIA caught Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, suspected of ties to an al-Qaeda attack on a U.S. warship in Yemen. He, too, was taken to the Thai site.

With the prospect of holding more and more captives, the CIA required a better location. “It was just a chicken coop we remodeled,” a former senior agency official said of the facility in Thailand.

The CIA reached out to foreign intelligence services. The agency’s station chief in Warsaw reported back with good news. The Polish intelligence service, known as Agencja Wywiadu, had a training base with a villa that the CIA could use in Stare Kiejkuty, a three-hour drive north of Warsaw.

Polish officials asked whether the CIA could make some improvements to the facility. The CIA obliged, paying nearly $300,000 to outfit it with security cameras.

The accommodations were not spacious. The two-story villa could hold up to a handful of detainees. A large shed behind the house also was converted into a cell.

“It was pretty spartan,” the agency official recalled.

There was also a room where detainees, if they cooperated, could ride a stationary bike or use a treadmill.

On Dec. 5, 2002, Nashiri and Abu Zubaida were flown to Poland and taken to the site, which was code-named “Quartz.”

Five days later, an e-mail went out to agency employees that the interrogation program was up and running, and under the supervision of the Special Missions Department of the Counterterrorism Center (CTC).

Officials then began shutting down the prison in Thailand, eliminating all traces of the CIA presence.

Harsh interrogations


Agency executives tapped Mike Sealy, a senior intelligence officer, to run the Polish black site, according to former CIA officials. He was called a “program manager” and was briefed on an escalating series of “enhanced interrogation techniques” that were formulated at the CIA and approved by Justice Department lawyers. These included slapping, sleep deprivation and waterboarding, a technique that involved pouring water over the shrouded face of the detainee and creating the sensation of drowning.

“I do believe that it is torture,” President Obama said of waterboarding in 2009.

In Poland, Sealy oversaw about half a dozen or so special protective officers whom the CIA had sent to provide security. The number of analysts and officers varied. Polish officials could visit a common area where lunch was served, but they didn’t have access to the detainees.

There would soon be problems in the implementation of the interrogation protocols.

Agency officers clashed over the importance of Nashiri’s alleged role in the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen in 2000; the attack killed 17 U.S. sailors.

“He was an idiot,” said the former CIA official, who supported the program. “He couldn’t read or comprehend a comic book.”

Other CTC officials thought Nashiri was a key al-Qaeda figure and was withholding information. After a tense meeting in December 2002, top CIA officials decided that they needed to get tougher with him, two former U.S. intelligence officials recounted.

A decision was made to dispatch a CIA linguist who had once worked for the FBI in New York. Albert El Gamil was of Egyptian descent and spoke Arabic fluently, but he was not a trained interrogator.

Gamil flew to Poland, where he subjected Nashiri to a mock execution and put a drill to the head of the blindfolded man, according to several former CIA officials. The CIA inspector general also reported on those events.

Top CIA officials learned about the incidents in January 2003 after a security guard at the facility sounded the alarm. Sealy and Gamil were pulled out of Poland and dismissed from the program, according to several former agency officials. They left the CIA a little later.

Both Sealy and Gamil declined to comment.

‘Dramatic positive results’

In March 2003, Khalid Sheik Mohammed was captured in the Pakistani city of Rawalpindi and brought to Poland. He proved difficult to break, even when water­boarded, according to several former CIA officials. Mohammed would count off the seconds, between 20 and 40, knowing that the simulated drowning always ended within a certain period. An agency official said that one time, Mohammed fell asleep on the waterboard between sessions. But agency officials have said that he finally crumbled after extended sleep deprivation.

CIA officials assert that while in Poland, Mohammed, who has a sizable ego, began talking. He liked to lecture the CIA officers, who would then steer the conversations in ways that benefited them. He also liked to joust with his inquisitors. Once a female officer, who was later killed in Afghanistan, questioned Mohammed in Poland. She told him that she knew everything about him and that he shouldn’t lie to her, two CIA former officials said.Mohammed leaned back in his chair and said, “Then why are you here?”

Abu Zubaida also provided important information to his interrogators, officials said. He identified people in photographs and gave what one official called “hundreds of data points.” Officials said Abu Zubaida was even willing to help get new detainees to talk. “Allah knows I am only human and knows that I will be forgiven,” a former official recalled him saying. Former agency officials directly involved in the program, such as the CIA’s former deputy director of operations, Jose Rodriguez, have said that the harsh techniques produced “dramatic positive results.”

The Senate Intelligence Committee intends to challenge such assertions when its report is made public. Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), the committee chairman, said her investigation “will provide a detailed, factual description of how interrogation techniques were used, the conditions under which detainees were held, and the intelligence that was — or wasn’t — gained from the program.”

Eventually, the CIA had to leave Poland, fearing that maintaining one location for too long risked exposure.

In September 2003, the Polish site was emptied. The CIA scattered detainees to Romania, Morocco and, later, Lithuania. Looking for a long-term solution, the CIA paid the Moroccans $20 million to build a prison it never used that was code-named “Bombay.”

In 2005, The Washington Post reported that the CIA had operated secret prisons in Eastern Europe. Human Rights Watch soon identified locations in Poland and Romania, and multiple European officials and news accounts have since confirmed the presence of these sites.

Before Porter J. Goss stepped down as CIA director in May 2006, the facilities in Romania and Lithuania were closed. Some of the detainees were sent to a Moroccan jail that had been previously used, and others were sent to a new CIA prison in Kabul called “Fernando,” which had replaced one known as “the Salt Pit.”

From those locations, 14 high-value detainees were shipped to the Guantanamo Bay military detention center in September 2006. Obama ended the interrogation program in 2009. The previous year, Polish prosecutors opened a criminal investigation into what happened at the training base. They also quietly issued arrest warrants for CIA officials who had visited the black site. It is not clear whether the warrants are still in effect.
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It is another thing to sell them a center for torture.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by K. A. Pital »

I'm not even surprised anymore. In the past decade the CIA had to deal with what they had and left too many footprints. But I have literally zero hopes that this will ever change: they will just learn to hide detention and torture centers better, to truly dissappear people into nowhere for decades.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Kitsune »

Hasn't anybody at the CIA read about the witch hunts either in Europe or in Salem?
You torture somebody and they will tell you what you want.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Simon_Jester »

Every pack of torturers knows this. However, they all tend to:
1) Convince themselves that they will be able to extract the real truth under all the fake stories the torturer tells.
2) Know perfectly well that they're not dealing with 'ticking bomb' scenarios, and know that they have plenty of time to follow up false leads and find out that they are false, then go back and beat another story out of the guy.
3) Not particularly care about innocent victims, and accept that a dozen people will be falsely accused and jailed due to confessions under torture for every rebel/terrorist/witch they capture, and believe that this is the price for the greater good (protection of the regime, preserving SPARTAFREEDOMURCA, and/or poking Satan in the eye)
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Purple »

You forgot 4) Are sick sadists who enjoy torture or watching people get tortured and don't really care about the results as long as they get their jail free all expenses paid access to fresh victims.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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Or just 5) good old revenge. (Think I am kidding? Just look at the celebrations that unfolded in the USA after OBL got killed).
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Flagg »

Thanas wrote:Or just 5) good old revenge. (Think I am kidding? Just look at the celebrations that unfolded in the USA after OBL got killed).
Not the greatest example since we didn't torture him, just executed him. A better example would be the fact that that cunt from the Abu Graib pictures is considered a fucking hero in her home town and by quite a few people across the rest of America. The fact that torture doesn't you know, work is ignored by these people as well. That's why you will always hear the fucking "ticking clock" scenario used as an example by pro-torture advocates who watch 24 thinking it's anything but a goddamned live action cartoon.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Lolpah »

Or maybe 6) They torture a large number of people and cross-reference the information gained, which is more likely to succeed and will also tell them which of them they can rely on to provide accurate information.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Flagg »

Lolpah wrote:Or maybe 6) They torture a large number of people and cross-reference the information gained, which is more likely to succeed and will also tell them which of them they can rely on to provide accurate information.
Right. :roll: Give me a flathead screwdriver and 15 minutes and I can get you to swear on everything you believe in that the moon is purple. That's why torture doesn't work.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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Lolpah wrote:Or maybe 6) They torture a large number of people and cross-reference the information gained, which is more likely to succeed and will also tell them which of them they can rely on to provide accurate information.
So what you're saying is that if torture isn't working, you're just not torturing enough people?
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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Lolpah: less advanced than Nazi interrogators.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by loomer »

The purpose of torture is rarely information, even when information acts as the apparent purpose. It serves instead as a means of intimidation and to reinforce a power structure. Any useful information - and it's really quite rare that it'll be extracted through torture, you want non-coercive interogation to actually get results - is largely incidental, but makes a great justification. Or do people think the Stalinists were conveyor-belting people for information, or that Israel really thinks its prisoners know anything of value?
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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Purple wrote:You forgot 4) Are sick sadists who enjoy torture or watching people get tortured and don't really care about the results as long as they get their jail free all expenses paid access to fresh victims.
I don't think this actually explains entire organizations of torturers. The actual torturers may well include a (disproportionate) number of sadists, but a large organization of secret police can't be made up entirely of genuine sadists from top to bottom.

People like Heinrich Himmler come to mind- personally rather mild, sick at the sight of actual massacres, and yet capable of masterminding enormous atrocities that would stagger the imagination of a merely ordinary sadist.
Thanas wrote:Or just 5) good old revenge. (Think I am kidding? Just look at the celebrations that unfolded in the USA after OBL got killed).
Torture as a means of extracting revenge explains certain things, but not others- it can come up though, yes.

[P.S. Under what circumstances, if any, would it not be wrong to celebrate the death of the leader of an enemy force?]
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Lolpah wrote:Or maybe 6) They torture a large number of people and cross-reference the information gained, which is more likely to succeed and will also tell them which of them they can rely on to provide accurate information.
So what you're saying is that if torture isn't working, you're just not torturing enough people?
Thanas wrote:Lolpah: less advanced than Nazi interrogators.
Er... what I think he's saying is that the information which comes from torture isn't 100% inaccurate, so that if it is cross-referenced and used by a chillingly organized, Stasi/NKVD/Gestapo-like bureaucracy, they may find that it accomplishes some of their goals and periodically tells them things they want to know.

And Grumman, I don't think that summarizes the way you tried to present it. I think it summarizes as "if the institution of torture is widespread enough, and used with careful attention and followup, it can sometimes tell the torturers things that they want to know."

I mean, I am well aware that torture results in the victim lying. A lot. But those of us here who are saying or implying that it is 100% ineffective... I think that's taking it too far for ideological reasons. We want to think torture is completely useless, because it means we don't even need to ask ourselves the utilitarian question, "would it ever be right?" We get to shortcut past that ethical issue, rather than confronting it.

Me, I'm willing to look at that, and I believe torture is always wrong, but I do not believe that it always accomplishes nothing. Armed robbery is always wrong too- but that doesn't mean that you never make any money at it.
loomer wrote:The purpose of torture is rarely information, even when information acts as the apparent purpose. It serves instead as a means of intimidation and to reinforce a power structure. Any useful information - and it's really quite rare that it'll be extracted through torture, you want non-coercive interogation to actually get results - is largely incidental, but makes a great justification. Or do people think the Stalinists were conveyor-belting people for information, or that Israel really thinks its prisoners know anything of value?
Now this, THIS, is a huge deal. This is massively important, I missed this in my post and I feel kind of dumb for having done so.

The purpose of torture is torture, the purpose of power is power, to quote 1984. Torture serves to assert the state's power over the victim, just as cases of torture associated with serial killings are the result of the serial killer's desire to assert power over their victim.

As a side-effect, if people know the secret police torture people, it may make them a bit more likely to cooperate with the state rather than trying to hide anything and risking even appearing on the secret police's radar. And that cooperation happens not just in interrogations, but even when they are not prisoners, by submitting to blackmail attempts, informing on friends or relatives, and so on. Torture creates a climate of exceptional fear, which evil governments use to their advantage- acts of state terrorism directed at the populace.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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Simon_Jester wrote:Me, I'm willing to look at that, and I believe torture is always wrong, but I do not believe that it always accomplishes nothing. Armed robbery is always wrong too- but that doesn't mean that you never make any money at it.
If the nazis who had much larger sample sizes of interrogations to draw on than any CIA program decided that torture was less effective than real interrogation techniques then you have no case for effectiveness of torture.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Grumman »

Simon_Jester wrote:And Grumman, I don't think that summarizes the way you tried to present it. I think it summarizes as "if the institution of torture is widespread enough, and used with careful attention and followup, it can sometimes tell the torturers things that they want to know."

I mean, I am well aware that torture results in the victim lying. A lot. But those of us here who are saying or implying that it is 100% ineffective... I think that's taking it too far for ideological reasons. We want to think torture is completely useless, because it means we don't even need to ask ourselves the utilitarian question, "would it ever be right?" We get to shortcut past that ethical issue, rather than confronting it.

Me, I'm willing to look at that, and I believe torture is always wrong, but I do not believe that it always accomplishes nothing. Armed robbery is always wrong too- but that doesn't mean that you never make any money at it.
I do not dispute that torture can sometimes get the information you're looking for. The issue I was referring to is that the validity of the decision to torture itself is treated as unfalsifiable. If you're torturing someone and they're pleading innocence, they're lying and you need to torture them some more. If they start spouting bullshit to try to make you stop, you need to go torture more people to verify it. Even if they tell you the truth, Lolpah thinks "Aha! If we torture them some more, more secrets will fall out!"
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

IIRC the idiots behind Guantanamo thought something similar to Lolpah: to make a 'network of information' of sorts for any given area. For example, learn who is influential in some village in Afghanistan, who might be a Taliban sympathizer, that sort of thing.

You'll notice how concepts such as 'guilt' or 'innocence' or 'trial' don't figure here. They were literally kidnapping schmoes off the street and hoping they'd be useful. I guess that's why it took an entire decade to find Bin Laden.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Flagg »

I'm sure we waterboarded KSM about 180 times to get more intel. I mean we wouldn't put psychopaths in charge and let them torture the shit out of people for shits and giggles, right? Right? Right.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by K. A. Pital »

I think what is more alarming is the ease... You know, back in the day sending a person to be tortured in some other nation was a fairly complex operation and the choice was limited. Now you can choose any nation. Eastern Europe, Middle East, possibly also Latin America, South East Asia.

The whole world can be used to set up torture centers.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Lolpah »

Thanas wrote:If the nazis who had much larger sample sizes of interrogations to draw on than any CIA program decided that torture was less effective than real interrogation techniques then you have no case for effectiveness of torture.
I wasn't supporting torture - I was just speculating about the CIA justifications for it.

But holy shit. If even the cross-reference strategy doesn't work, it means that the current torturers not only disregard basic Human Rights(right to fair trial and no cruel and unusual punishments, which are made even worse by fact that many if not most detainees are innocent) and all the social and institutional consequences of their actions, but also that it doesn't even help them in their extremely short-sighted quest for information. So they either are wholly incompetent idiots or they just want to punish the people they regard as "enemies". I wonder which one is worse.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by energiewende »

Torture seems to have worked in the past when US agents have been captured and tortured, eg. William Buckley in Lebanon. Is the US lying about the effect of torture on its operative (why?), or does it sometimes work?

My expectation, based on no experience and very little reading, is that torture will eventually induce the victim to tell the torturer everything that he knows and believes to be true. It will also induce the victim to tell the torturer things that he does not believe to be true - things that he believes that the torturer believing will hurt the torturer's cause, things he believes the torturer wants to hear, things that he believes will lead the torturer to view him as a higher value prisoner and stop torturing him, and nonsense produced by the stress of the ordeal. The effectiveness of torture therefore depends on the ability to filter the true signal from the noise. That seems non-trivial but not impossible, especially if there are other sources of information against which claims can be verified.

Perhaps others are more knowledgable than me - it would not be difficult on this subject - but I am a little sceptical of claims of the complete uselessness of torture.
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

Post by Irbis »

Thanas wrote:It is another thing to sell them a center for torture.
By "Poland" you mean 'government that is not in power for decade, and in fact is under investigation by Polish prosecutors for potentially highest possible charges'?

Anyway, this is heinous, but the above is not exactly news, this had been mentioned on this board repeatedly, including by me. The only new element is leaked sum paid for cooperation of ABW. But the thing is, Poland actually investigates it. Out of curiosity, what about investigation of similar black sites in Ramstein and Rhein-Main US air bases? Did it move forward, or was is quietly killed by Merkel like investigation of CIA officers responsible for abduction and torture of German citizens were? Any mention how much BND got from Americans, or is that information too secret for general public?
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Thanas
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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Irbis wrote:By "Poland" you mean 'government that is not in power for decade, and in fact is under investigation by Polish prosecutors for potentially highest possible charges'?
Yes, just like anytime Merkel does something Germany does something. Should be obvious, no?
Anyway, this is heinous, but the above is not exactly news, this had been mentioned on this board repeatedly, including by me. The only new element is leaked sum paid for cooperation of ABW. But the thing is, Poland actually investigates it. Out of curiosity, what about investigation of similar black sites in Ramstein and Rhein-Main US air bases?
Not our territory, can't do anything about. Sovereignty of the USA, you know.
Did it move forward, or was is quietly killed by Merkel like investigation of CIA officers responsible for abduction and torture of German citizens were?
I assume by quietly killed you mean having 10 CIA officers on an interpol order to detain as soon as they set foot outside the USA, aka actually having international arrest warrants out for those scumbags?
Any mention how much BND got from Americans, or is that information too secret for general public?
No, actually Spiegel wrote a lot about cooperation with the BND. Too bad for your case that money is not mentioned in the documents Spiegel obtained.
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Welf
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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Thanas wrote:No, actually Spiegel wrote a lot about cooperation with the BND. Too bad for your case that money is not mentioned in the documents Spiegel obtained.
Is it really better that our secret services commit high treason for free?
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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Welf wrote:
Thanas wrote:No, actually Spiegel wrote a lot about cooperation with the BND. Too bad for your case that money is not mentioned in the documents Spiegel obtained.
Is it really better that our secret services commit high treason for free?
What do you view as high treason?
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: How Poland sold itself to support CIA torture

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energiewende wrote:Torture seems to have worked in the past when US agents have been captured and tortured, eg. William Buckley in Lebanon. Is the US lying about the effect of torture on its operative (why?), or does it sometimes work?

My expectation, based on no experience and very little reading, is that torture will eventually induce the victim to tell the torturer everything that he knows and believes to be true. It will also induce the victim to tell the torturer things that he does not believe to be true - things that he believes that the torturer believing will hurt the torturer's cause, things he believes the torturer wants to hear, things that he believes will lead the torturer to view him as a higher value prisoner and stop torturing him, and nonsense produced by the stress of the ordeal. The effectiveness of torture therefore depends on the ability to filter the true signal from the noise. That seems non-trivial but not impossible, especially if there are other sources of information against which claims can be verified.

Perhaps others are more knowledgable than me - it would not be difficult on this subject - but I am a little sceptical of claims of the complete uselessness of torture.
No one informed will say torture is useless. Torture is in fact highly useful for any number of things. The issue is that for the scenario we are most often presented in the media - the ticking time bomb - it is all but useless for reliable intelligence gathering. If you don't need to know any time soon, it works great. If you want to destroy a man, it works even better. If you want him to go in front of the media and confess to things he never did, why yes, it even works for that. Notice that Hezbollah held the man for fifteen months - not for just a few hours or days.
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