Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

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Are ranked ballots a good idea for municipal elections?

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No
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Not Sure
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Total votes: 15

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Tribble
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Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Tribble »

Globe Editorial
Ontario points the way with ranked ballots experiment

The Globe and Mail

Published Thursday, Oct. 02 2014, 6:30 PM EDT

Last updated Thursday, Oct. 02 2014, 7:26 PM EDT

Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne’s announcement that her government intends to allow the optional use of so-called ranked ballots in civic elections starting in 2018 is excellent news. At long last, a Canadian politician is willing to give electors a chance to experiment with something other than the brutal determinism of the country’s long-standing first-past-the-post system.

Let’s use Toronto as an example to explain ranked balloting. On Oct. 27, voters will select one of 65 people for mayor. With that many candidates, in the first-past-the-post system – where the person with the most votes wins, period – it is mathematically conceivable that someone could become mayor with 5 per cent of the popular vote. That will never happen, of course, because the vast majority of the people running for mayor are fringe candidates whose support doesn’t extend beyond their front door – but it does demonstrate the inherent absurdity of the current system.

What will, in fact, happen in Toronto on Oct. 27 is that one of three front-runners – Olivia Chow, Doug Ford and John Tory – will almost certainly become mayor with less than 50 per cent of the popular vote. This will be exacerbated by the low turnout that characterizes municipal elections. Nothing close to a majority of the city’s electors will have voted for their mayor – one of the many factors that causes voter disengagement.

A ranked ballot system, on the other hand, means the person elected mayor has earned 50 per cent of the vote thanks to a built-in runoff system. Instead of a check mark, voters put a 1 beside their preferred candidate, a 2 beside their second choice, a 3 beside their third, and so on (and on and on, in Toronto’s case). Some snazzy computerized tabulation system counts up the results. If none of the candidates has earned 50 per cent of the preferred votes, the second-choice votes are then allocated, and then the third choice votes, etc., etc., until one of the candidates passes the 50-per-cent threshold.

The ranked ballot system is used in various forms in elections in a few countries and a couple of American cities; run-offs are also fairly standard around the world for the election of the leaders of political parties by party members. Advocates for its use in elections say it cures many of the ills associated with the first-past-the-post system. Aside from guaranteeing majority support for the winner, there is less negativity and polarization, because candidates need to reach beyond their base and attract voters who might make them their second or third choice. As well, voters don’t have to swallow hard and vote for a candidate they don’t really like in order to prevent the election of another they despise (i.e., strategic voting).

Toronto councillors last year voted in favour of asking the province to allow the city to hold ranked-ballot elections. It seems they will now get that wish in time for 2018, as will every other Ontario municipality. But Toronto – if it indeed adopts ranked balloting – will be the country’s litmus test for the system’s effectiveness and popularity. Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that it should, however, they need to understand that ranked ballots are not a perfect fix.

Candidates, for instance, can tell their supporters who their second and third choices should be, thereby eliminating the need to reach beyond their base in a meaningful way. And unless voters are obligated by the law to rank the candidates, they can simply put a 1 beside their preferred choice. Ontario, or perhaps each municipality, will need to decide whether this is allowed, or whether voters must choose their top three, or top five, or must put a rank beside every single name on the ballot, and whether failure to do so will result in a spoiled ballot. There are a lot of voters who could be offended by the idea of being obliged to extend even low-preference support to candidates whose views are anathema to them.

Let’s also remember that one of voters’ pet peeves about politicians – especially incumbents – is that they often refuse to take strong stands on issues in the name of expediency. Ranked ballots could result in even more vanilla front-runner candidates who daren’t offend anyone in order to garner as many second- and third-preference votes as possible. The first-past-the-post system has its faults, but at least it gives us a few candidates in every election that are willing to espouse difficult or out-there positions.

The greater issue, though, is that Canadian law-makers have been reluctant to explore alternatives to the first-past-the-post system. Voter turnout is dropping at all levels of government. Something needs to be done to show voters that there are other ways, and that those others ways could restore their confidence. Ontario has opened that door.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-de ... e20898792/

What's not (and should have been) stated in this article is that in 2010 a Toronto councillor was elected with merely 19% of the vote. I'd hardly call that a mandate.

I was wondering if anyone here had experience with ranked ballots? To me it seems an improvement over FPTP, at least for municipal elections.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Tribble »

So, ummm, does anybody have any ideas or experience? Should this be a measure for Ontarians to support, or is it better to stick with FPTP? I think that there are some municipalites in the US that use ranked ballots, and Australia uses ranked ballots extensively.

Incidentally, if this measure is passed and cities like Toronto start adopting ranked ballots, it could potentially have an impact across the rest of Canada if other provinces choose to follow suit.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Grumman »

Tribble wrote:I was wondering if anyone here had experience with ranked ballots? To me it seems an improvement over FPTP, at least for municipal elections.
As someone who lives in a country that makes heavy use of ranked ballots, I'd say the ideal system is one that has you number your X top choices from 1 to X, where X is anything up to the total number of candidates. Your vote is passed around by the usual method, but is discarded once it hits your limit.

This is intended to avoid the stupidity we saw in the last Australian senate election, where you had only two choices: pick one of the parties and let their preferences decide where your vote goes, or rank 60+ candidates from 1 to 60 even if you only support the first ten. Naturally, most people picked the first option, which resulted in people's votes being passed back and forth so much that the Sports Party - a party which only had 3,000 people vote for them - came very close to being one of six senators for two and a half million Western Australians.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Darth Holbytlan »

The article talks about "ranked ballots", but it's clear that what they mean is instant-runoff voting (IRV). I answered the poll in that light, because IRV is pretty bad. I've seen some claims that it is even worse than first-past-the-post (FPTP), although that is a debatable point. It does, however, perform very poorly as far as electing candidates that best match the actual preferences of the voters, tends to produce unpredictable results, and encourages an over-proliferation of candidates (because it has the opposite of the vote splitting problem—running more similar candidates gives them an unfair advantage in IRV), and is easy to game.

The good ranked voting system is one of the Condorcet voting systems. But Condorcet voting is difficult to explain to the electorate so it always loses out to IRV, which is at least easy to explain and tends to sound good to the layman.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by The_Saint »

Conversely to Darth Holbytlan by "ranked ballots" I see Single Transferable Vote which is what is used everywhere in Australia from Federal Parliament down to local council (and by a lot of organisations as well eg my high school Student Executive). From memory Condorcet voting is usually undertaken as STV anyway so go figure?

It's considered extremely fair and easy to use accept for the Federal Senate shenanigans that Grumman mentioned. Where due to the potentially high number of candidates and the requirement to number ALL OF THEM people end up voting 'above the line' for a single political party, there's other issues with that but they're more general party politics issues not of the base system.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Purple »

If having to fill out too many boxes is a problem (people are lazy or something I guess and the government has to accommodate that) why not just make it so that the ones counting automatically assume that everyone whose name does not have a number next to it shares the same place behind everyone with numbers?
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Tribble »

There are no political parties at the municipal level in Ontario, and there is one councillor per ward. Also, although its not stated in the legislation, I believe what they are aiming for is "you may rank up to X candidates."

If that's any help in defining whether its IRV or STV.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Simon_Jester »

Purple wrote:If having to fill out too many boxes is a problem (people are lazy or something I guess and the government has to accommodate that)...
First of all, it increases the logistical burden of handling voting at physical polling places if everyone has to spend half an hour figuring out how to rank obscure, irrelevant parties they've never heard of.

Even if that's not an issue for whatever reason, it's a waste of the voter's time to force them to rank obscure parties they don't like and have never heard of. And an even bigger waste of the voter's time to force them to research such parties.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Purple »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Purple wrote:If having to fill out too many boxes is a problem (people are lazy or something I guess and the government has to accommodate that)...
First of all, it increases the logistical burden of handling voting at physical polling places if everyone has to spend half an hour figuring out how to rank obscure, irrelevant parties they've never heard of.

Even if that's not an issue for whatever reason, it's a waste of the voter's time to force them to rank obscure parties they don't like and have never heard of. And an even bigger waste of the voter's time to force them to research such parties.
Thus my solution to those problems presented in the part of the post you did not quote. Say you have 5 parties named A through E. You fill out the ballot like this:
1 A
2 B
3 C
D
E

In my system, D and E are automatically counted as 4. Solves the voter laziness issue nicely. And if D and E get equal votes in the end which is unlikely you can just have a second round with only them in the game.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Block »

And what if I have no interest in voting for D and E and don't want my vote counted towards them?
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Esquire »

Why not simply have multiple rounds of single-choice ballots, with unpopular candidates not moving on to later rounds? I think the French do that - something like it, anyway. It's not like elections are time-critical affairs, after all.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Purple »

Block wrote:And what if I have no interest in voting for D and E and don't want my vote counted towards them?
Than do not partake in a democratic election system. Every election system has as an integral part of it the fact that if you chose to take part in it than you absolutely must select one of the choices offered. Translated to a ranked system this translates to you absolutely having to assign a rank to every single one. What my proposal does is simply give you an easier way of doing this.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Irbis »

Esquire wrote:Why not simply have multiple rounds of single-choice ballots, with unpopular candidates not moving on to later rounds? I think the French do that - something like it, anyway. It's not like elections are time-critical affairs, after all.
Yeah. In most of Europe, you need 50% votes to win, and if you didn't get that many in the first round, you have second round with top 2 or 3 candidates to pick winner. Of course, such approach does have problems, but less than needlessly convoluted and opaque systems.
Purple wrote:Than do not partake in a democratic election system. Every election system has as an integral part of it the fact that if you chose to take part in it than you absolutely must select one of the choices offered. Translated to a ranked system this translates to you absolutely having to assign a rank to every single one. What my proposal does is simply give you an easier way of doing this.
That's an excellent way to have ~10% or less people voting, with only radical, iron electorate showing up to the polls. Forcing people to vote, if not done wisely, will result in people voting on first person that promises them not needing to vote. Or, even worse, voting for them.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Block »

Purple wrote:
Block wrote:And what if I have no interest in voting for D and E and don't want my vote counted towards them?
Than do not partake in a democratic election system. Every election system has as an integral part of it the fact that if you chose to take part in it than you absolutely must select one of the choices offered. Translated to a ranked system this translates to you absolutely having to assign a rank to every single one. What my proposal does is simply give you an easier way of doing this.
That's less Democratic than the current system.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Purple »

Irbis wrote:That's an excellent way to have ~10% or less people voting, with only radical, iron electorate showing up to the polls. Forcing people to vote, if not done wisely, will result in people voting on first person that promises them not needing to vote. Or, even worse, voting for them.
You seem to have misunderstood what I am saying. I am not talking about forcing people to vote, even though certain countries do that and it works just fine. I am talking about the fundamental principals underlying a democratic voting system. Allow me to try again.

When you chose to partake in the election system you are making a choice to go to the election place, fill out and hand in a valid ballot which will than be counted and used to determine what ever it is you are voting for. Anything else, be that not coming to the election or handing in an invalid ballot is choosing not to take part. A valid ballot in a traditional system is one where you have chosen one of the choices offered. A valid ballot in a rated system is one where you have given your rating for each and every one of the choices offered. Neither of those systems or indeed any other that I am aware of has the option of choosing "none of the above". Doing that is done by choosing to not partake in the election system to begin with.

That is what I was talking about.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Block »

There's often write ins. But you're not understanding that what I'm saying, when I vote, there are certain candidates that I don't want getting my vote under any circumstances, no matter how many other people vote for that person. Therefore I would only want to pick option A and B, and not rank the others, and not being able to do that is undemocratic.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Simon_Jester »

Purple wrote:
Block wrote:And what if I have no interest in voting for D and E and don't want my vote counted towards them?
Than do not partake in a democratic election system. Every election system has as an integral part of it the fact that if you chose to take part in it than you absolutely must select one of the choices offered.
But what if I selected like four of the choices offered? Clearly I have expressed my preferences; why is it somehow forbidden to say "I want no part of this particular party, under no conditions should my actions EVER be interpreted as support for them?"

I mean, isn't it a gross violation of my preferences if somehow my vote ends up counting towards the total votes received by the American Nazi Party or whatever? I didn't want that. It doesn't reflect me saying "I approve of their policies (a little)." It reflects someone asserting by default that my vote can count to bring about the victory of my hated enemy, which spits on the entire concept of the franchise.*

*[Franchise as a word used in the context of the right to vote; look it up]
Translated to a ranked system this translates to you absolutely having to assign a rank to every single one.
Why?

I mean, we routinely let people abstain from a specific vote without demanding that they give up the right to vote at all. Legislators do it all the time. It's perfectly reasonable for a person to say "in a choice between A and B I care about the outcome, in a choice between B and C, likewise... but in a choice between D and E, I want no part of this, a plague take both of them."
Purple wrote:When you chose to partake in the election system you are making a choice to go to the election place, fill out and hand in a valid ballot which will than be counted and used to determine what ever it is you are voting for. Anything else, be that not coming to the election or handing in an invalid ballot is choosing not to take part.
But there is no logical reason why in a rated system, ONLY ballots in which every party is ranked should be considered 'valid.'

See, this is an issue I've had with you before. You will often say "X is the required thing, so people should have to do X as part of the price of [getting desirable thing Y.]" The problem is that there's no logical connection between X and Y.

X is a requirement, but it's an arbitrary requirement, an nonsensical thing that should never have been required in the first place.

There's no reason it should somehow present a problem if someone ranks three or four parties on a ten-party ballot, and then says "if none of these guys win, all the other six do NOT have my support, my endorsement, or my vote, and don't pretend my vote somehow counts as approving of one of them."
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Purple »

Block wrote:There's often write ins. But you're not understanding that what I'm saying, when I vote, there are certain candidates that I don't want getting my vote under any circumstances, no matter how many other people vote for that person. Therefore I would only want to pick option A and B, and not rank the others, and not being able to do that is undemocratic.
That's the thing though. You can not reasonably do that under any sort of ranked system. It just is not in the rules by definition. Although if you are so hell bent on it I do not see why there would not be an option to just cross the name over or something. Sure, why not. Can't do any harm.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by bilateralrope »

Purple wrote:
Block wrote:There's often write ins. But you're not understanding that what I'm saying, when I vote, there are certain candidates that I don't want getting my vote under any circumstances, no matter how many other people vote for that person. Therefore I would only want to pick option A and B, and not rank the others, and not being able to do that is undemocratic.
That's the thing though. You can not reasonably do that under any sort of ranked system. It just is not in the rules by definition. Although if you are so hell bent on it I do not see why there would not be an option to just cross the name over or something. Sure, why not. Can't do any harm.
Do you have a reason, preferably a good one, as to why it can't be in the rules ?
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Purple »

bilateralrope wrote:
Purple wrote:
Block wrote:There's often write ins. But you're not understanding that what I'm saying, when I vote, there are certain candidates that I don't want getting my vote under any circumstances, no matter how many other people vote for that person. Therefore I would only want to pick option A and B, and not rank the others, and not being able to do that is undemocratic.
That's the thing though. You can not reasonably do that under any sort of ranked system. It just is not in the rules by definition. Although if you are so hell bent on it I do not see why there would not be an option to just cross the name over or something. Sure, why not. Can't do any harm.
Do you have a reason, preferably a good one, as to why it can't be in the rules ?
I just figured. I might be wrong. That's why I wrote the rest of that post.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Tribble »

I believe the proponents for ranked ballots were aiming for "you may rank up to X number of candidates."

Assuming that's what the government actually passes, what would be the potential advantages / consequences when compared to having to rank everyone?

For example, if I only choose to vote for one candidate, and Purple decides to rank three of them, does that mean that Purple would potentially have a lot more influence over who wins than I would? Is that preferable over requiring everyone to rank all candidates?
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Grumman »

bilateralrope wrote:Do you have a reason, preferably a good one, as to why it can't be in the rules ?
There are a couple of reasons why it might not be in the rules for a Single Transferable Vote election.

One, this system makes use of the fact that if X votes are cast with Y positions to fill, a requirement for X/(Y+1)+1 can only be met by a maximum of Y candidates. If there is one position, the winner must have 50%+1, if there are two positions, the winners must have 33.3%+1, three positions require 25%+1, and so on. If votes can drop out of the system before you finish counting, it is possible to have positions remaining without anyone reaching the threshold necessary to fill them. On the other hand, since you're only counting votes that people wanted to make and not votes that people were forced to make as in the current system, simply handing the last position to the F-lister with the most votes despite them not reaching the threshold would probably better reflect the electorate's wishes than allowing that last slot to potentially hinge on whether someone gave the Religious Bigots party or the Xenophobic Bigots party last billing when both are equally contemptible.

The other reason is that making voting below the line more annoying makes the electoral commission's job easier. If you vote above the line (using the party's preferences), it means the vote counters can just stick your ballot paper in a big pile with the other ballot papers marked in the same way, and treat it as a single entity that moves as a single entity. Keeping track of a stack of 10,000 ballot papers and discounting its value up to Y times (each time a position is filled, the votes over the threshold return to the system) is a lot easier than keeping track of 10,000 individual ballot papers that still might be discounted in this manner. You can do it if you switch to electronic voting and electronic vote-counting, but there are obvious reasons why you might not want the balance of power to rest on a black box.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by blahface »

Darth Holbytlan wrote:The article talks about "ranked ballots", but it's clear that what they mean is instant-runoff voting (IRV). I answered the poll in that light, because IRV is pretty bad. I've seen some claims that it is even worse than first-past-the-post (FPTP), although that is a debatable point. It does, however, perform very poorly as far as electing candidates that best match the actual preferences of the voters, tends to produce unpredictable results, and encourages an over-proliferation of candidates (because it has the opposite of the vote splitting problem—running more similar candidates gives them an unfair advantage in IRV), and is easy to game.

The good ranked voting system is one of the Condorcet voting systems. But Condorcet voting is difficult to explain to the electorate so it always loses out to IRV, which is at least easy to explain and tends to sound good to the layman.
Yeah, I completely agree. One problem I have with Condorcet voting system though is that strategic burial could lead to someone accidentally getting elected. Even if you could design a Condorcet method in which burying the biggest threat to your candidate never works, you still have to convince voters not to do this and I think that it is probably an intuitive strategy for any type of rank choice voting.

I think the most pragmatic solution is to have two rounds of voting with the first round using approval voting. The top two approved candidates would face off in the general election. Also, parties should never get to decide who gets into the first round. If you get X amount of signatures, you should be in. The top parties should not get any special treatment or be required to get a fewer number of signatures than any other candidate.
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Re: Ontario Municipalities heading towards ranked ballots

Post by Purple »

From what I have read though Condorcet is a complicated nightmare that is too difficult to understand and would thus breed resentment from the average voter who can newer be sure he understands it well enough to be sure he was not cheated.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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