Tamir Rice shooting

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Dominus Atheos
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Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Dominus Atheos »

Man, the hits just keep on coming with this story. I'll try to walk you through the timeline so you can know just how much police are lying about this case. So far we are up to 6 things.

Original story:
November 22, 2014

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A rookie Cleveland police officer shot a 12-year-old boy outside a city recreation center late Saturday afternoon after the boy pulled a BB gun from his waistband, police said.

Police were responding to reports of a male with a gun outside Cudell Recreation Center at Detroit Avenue and West Boulevard about 3:30 p.m., Deputy Chief of Field Operations Ed Tomba said.

A rookie officer and a 10-15 year veteran pulled into the parking lot and saw a few people sitting underneath a pavilion next to the center. The rookie officer saw a black gun sitting on the table, and he saw the boy pick up the gun and put it in his waistband, Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association President Jeffrey Follmer said.

The officer got out of the car and told the boy to put his hands up. The boy reached into his waistband, pulled out the gun and the rookie officer fired two shots, Tomba said.
Note the bolded parts.
1. Police said that Tamir Rice was seated at a table with other people.

2. Police said that as they pulled up, they saw Tamir Rice grab the gun and put it in his waistband.

3. Police said they got out of the car and told Tamir Rice three times to put his hands up but he refused.

4. Police said that Tamir Rice then reached into his waistband and pulled out the gun, and was then shot and killed by Officer Timothy Loehmann.

5. Timothy Loehmann was described as a rookie.
Updated story:
November 23, 2014

The shooting came after a man at the park adjacent to the rec center called police when he saw "a guy with a gun pointing it at people."

The caller twice said the gun was "probably fake" and told dispatchers the person pulling the gun from his waistband was "probably a juvenile," according to audio released by police officials late Saturday.

The caller's doubt was never relayed to the responding officers - one in his first year on the force, and the other with at least a decade of experience, Follmer said.

The rookie officer saw the boy at a park bench pick up what looked like a gun and placed it in his waistband, Follmer said.

The officer ordered the boy to put his hands in the air. Instead, police said, the boy reached for his gun. Deputy Chief Edward Tomba said the boy made no verbal threats to the officer and there was no physical confrontation.
So some very important information was left out when the dispatcher relayed the call to the police officers. I don't know if dispatchers have a legal duty to relay all important information to officers when giving them reports, but I bet that if a police officer was shot and killed because a dispatcher failed to convey relevant information, they would face at least disciplinary action.

So then there was a press conference:
11/24/2014

A 12-year-old boy shot by police after grabbing what turned out to be a replica gun died from his wounds on Sunday, one day after officers responded to a 911 call about someone waving what the caller described as a “probably fake” gun at a playground.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.

“That’s when the officer fired,” he said.

The Cuyahoga County medical examiner identified the boy as Tamir Rice.

An attorney for his family, Timothy Kucharski, said the boy went to the park with friends Saturday afternoon, but he did not know the details of what led to the shooting.

The police department is investigating the shooting.

Both officers who responded, a first-year rookie and a 10-year department veteran, have been placed on administrative leave pending the results of the department’s investigation.

The county prosecutor’s office also is investigating.

Mr. Kucharski said he will conduct his own investigation into the shooting and review the police’s investigation to determine “how exactly an innocent young 12-year-old boy could be killed playing at the park.”

“His mother is devastated,” Mr. Kucharski said.

The shooting of the boy, who was African-American, occurred as a grand jury is expected to make a decision soon over whether to charge a white police officer who shot an unarmed black teenager in Ferguson, Mo., setting off months of protests.

Mr. Kucharski said he did not know the race of the officer who shot the boy, and the shooting did not appear to have anything to do with race.

The important question, he said, was why the officers did not act with more caution because they were dealing with a child.

“The police have to address these things in the proper context,” he said.

“This is a 12-year-old boy. This is not a grown man.

“I’d think you would handle situations with children differently than you would with an adult. They don’t fully understand everything that is going on.”

Police said the weapon was an “airsoft” type replica that resembled a semi-automatic handgun.

The orange safety indicator had been removed, police said.

A man who called 911 told dispatchers the boy was on a swing and pointing a pistol that was “probably fake” and scaring everyone.

The caller said twice that the gun was “probably fake.”

Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen’s Association, said the officers were not told the caller thought the gun might be fake.

The officer called to the playground outside of the Cudell Recreation Center on the city’s West Side saw the pistol sitting on a table or bench.

They watched the boy grab it and put it in his waistband, Mr. Follmer said.

Authorities are investigating what information from the call was relayed to the officers, police spokesman Jennifer Ciaccia said.

The police learned the gun was fake after the shooting, Ms. Ciaccia said.
State Rep. Alicia Reece announced Sunday that she will introduce legislation to place restrictions on BB guns, air rifles, and airsoft guns.

While other states have passed laws regulating the sale of imitation or toy guns, there are no laws in Ohio that place restrictions on them, according to the Dayton Daily News.

Federal law requires that toy or imitation firearms be sold with orange tips inserted in the barrels, but those tips can be removed or painted.


Read more at http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/1 ... 815h3mx.99
As you can see, the press conference makes a huge deal about the fact that the orange tip was removed from the toy gun.

Then the video comes out, and puts lies to 5 things the police initially said:


1. Tamir Rice as not seated at a table with other people.

2. Tamir Rice does not appear to grab the gun and put it in his waistband.

3. Police shot and killed Tamir in less than two seconds and could not have told him to put his hands up three times.

4. Tamir Rice absolutely does not pull the air gun out of his waistband and brandish it in any way. This fact is so crucial.
And 5. Since the police didn't see the tip of the weapon, they had no way of knowing that it had been removed.

The next part doesn't have anything to do with the police, but goes to show just how worthless many people in society consider black, lower-class lives.
Lawyer representing Tamir Rice's family defended boy's mom in drug trafficking case

November 24

...Dan Flannery, a clinical child psychologist and researcher at Case Western Reserve University, said that children exposed to criminal activity could be impacted by that behavior.

"Growing up in such an environment can be confusing for a young person," Flannery said. "They could have questions about how to react in certain situations ...or how to react to police depending on what their previous interactions with law enforcement have been like."
Tamir Rice's father has history of domestic violence

November 26, 2014

LEVELAND, Ohio -- Tamir Rice's father has a history of violence against women.

Leonard Warner, who fathered the 12-year-old boy fatally shot by a Cleveland police officer Saturday, has multiple convictions for the abuse of women, court records show.

On Tuesday, Warner, 34, requested a continuance in his latest domestic violence case now moving through Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court.

He is accused of punching his live-in girlfriend in the head and arms during an incident in August, according to a police record.

The victim's name is redacted.

Warner is estranged from Rice's mother Samaria Rice, who pleaded guilty to drug trafficking last year and assault in 2001.

The same year, on Dec. 8, 2001, she was the victim of domestic violence. Warner was her knife-wielding attacker at a home in the 3800 block of East 92nd Street, according to a court document. The report does not say if Rice was injured.

Warner was convicted in the case and sentenced to one year of probation, records show. The court noted that Warner had a prior domestic violence conviction in Euclid Municipal Court.

In 2010, Warner was arrested again for domestic violence. He pleaded guilty and was sentenced to two years probation.

Samaria Rice was the victim in that case, according to the court.

Even though their relationship ended, Samaria Rice again found herself the victim of violence at the hands of men.

She called Strongsville police twice in 2010 to report abuse from a boyfriend when she lived in that city.

In one case, told police that her live-in boyfriend, Michael Wiley, of Cleveland, had beaten her for two days.

Wiley was convicted of domestic violence and given a suspended 90-day jail sentence, county court records show.

Details about Warner's conviction in Euclid Municipal Court were not immediately available.
Back on the police:
29 November 2014

The police officers who shot 12-year-old Tamir Rice while he was holding a BB gun did not give him first aid and watched him lie in agony for four minutes, Cleveland authorities have revealed.

Footage shows rookie Timothy Loehmann shooting the youngster within two seconds of his squad car arriving at the scene last weekend following a 911 call that said the weapon was 'probably fake'.

However the video does not show how him and his colleague Frank Gramback reacted.

ABC 5 have reported that the boy did not receive medical attention until four minutes after the shooting in the Ohio city, with two other officials coming to the scene to give the boy help.
But I said there were 6 lies in the initial police report, but that's only 5 so what's the other one? Well, officer Loemann is technically a rookie on the Cleavland force, but he had experience on another police force before this.
Cleveland officer who fatally shot Tamir Rice judged unfit for duty in 2012

Thursday 4 December 2014

“During a state range qualification course, Ptl Loehmann was distracted and weepy,” Polak wrote, naming the trainer as Sgt Tinnirello. “[Loehmann] could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal. Sgt Tinnirello tried to work through this with Ptl Loehmann by giving him some time. But, after some talking it was clear to Sgt Tinnirello that the recruit was just not mentally prepared to be doing firearm training.
In recommending Loehmann’s dismissal, Polak listed what he said were other performance shortcomings, including Loehmann’s having left his gun unlocked, lied to supervisors and failed to follow orders.

“Due to this dangerous loss of composure during live range training and his inability to manage this personal stress, I do not believe Ptl Loehmann shows the maturity needed to work in our employment,” Polak concludes. “For these reasons, I am recommending he be released from the employment of the city of Independence. I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies.”
Apparently this type of thing is not uncommon for the Cleavland PD.
Justice Department wants sweeping changes in Cleveland Police Department; report finds "systemic deficiencies"

December 04, 2014

CLEVELAND, Ohio – U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder and the Justice Department delivered a scathing review of the Cleveland Police Department's use-of-force policies and practices, and said sweeping reforms must be put in place.

Holder joined U.S. Attorney Steven Dettelbach and Mayor Frank Jackson to present the findings of a civil rights investigation based on an examination of nearly 600 use-of-force incidents from 2010 to 2013, plus thousands of related documents and hundreds of interviews.

The investigation by six Justice Department lawyers, plus several independent policing experts, found that systemic deficiencies and practices haunt the city's police department. The problems include insufficient accountability, inadequate training, ineffective policies, and inadequate engagement with the community.

The 58-page letter paints a woeful portrait of rogue officers pulling their guns and firing at suspects without justifiable cause, of beating defenseless suspects already in handcuffs, and of covering up their actions by failing to write accurate police reports -- if they write any reports at all.

"The reality is that there are problems," Holder said. "But I also think the people of Cleveland should have a sense of hope ... that these problems have been identified and that they can be rectified."

In the ensuing months, the Justice Department will work with city and police officials, as well as meet with citizens at community forums to help implement the policy reforms and eventually obtain a consent decree to be overseen by a court-appointed, independent monitor, Dettelbach said.

If changes aren't forthcoming, the Justice Department can sue the city to force reforms.

Among the findings:

The Cleveland Police department engages in a pattern of using excessive force in violation of citizens' Constitutional rights.
Officers were quick to pull their guns, often escalating situations, and fired their guns at people who did not pose an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury.
There were incidents where officers punched and Tasered suspects already subdued or in handcuffs – sometimes as punishment. And they used Tasers too readily.
The report also cited the city for failing to adequately investigate and discipline the officers involved in using excessive force. They said that investigators conducting reviews admitted that their goal was to paint the accused officers in the most positive light.

The Justice Department report arrived amid a combustible atmosphere in the city, just more than a week after a police officer shot and killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice in a West Side park as he waved a pellet gun. The shooting sparked public anger accompanied by peaceful protests, in contrast to the riots that followed the fatal police shooting of an unarmed teen, Michael Brown, in Ferguson, Missouri in August.

The shooting death of Tamir Rice illuminated the need for police reforms, and brought the use-of-force problems "to a more prominent light in the country," said Venita Gupta, acting Assistant Attorney General in the Civil Rights Division.

"The reality is that Cleveland is not alone in its need to address police reform," Gupta said in a telephone interview earlier today. "These investigations are keystones of Attorney General Holder's legacy, and I think it's very significant that he is coming to Cleveland with a backdrop of these national issues to talk about community policing and constructive reforms," Gupta said.

Gupta noted that under Holder there has been a re-invigoration of civil rights and police reforms, with 20 investigations and nine consent decrees.

The Justice Department's civil rights investigation in Cleveland was launched in March 2013 at the request of Jackson, Congresswoman Marcia Fudge and other community and religious leaders five months after the November 2012 police chase that ended with two unarmed people killed in a hail of 137 bullets.

Officer Michael Brelo, who fired 49 rounds, is awaiting trial on voluntary manslaughter charges for the fatal shootings of Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams. Five supervisors were charged with dereliction of duty for their roles in the chase that involved 62 police cruisers and 100 officers. More than 70 officers and supervisors were disciplined for their roles in the chase.

The Brelo case, however, was not included in the report's findings, Dettelbach said, and he declined to discuss the case because it is pending in criminal court.

"It could have never happened and we would have made the same findings and recommendations," Dettelbach said.

Nor does the report deal with the issue of racial profiling, "although that issue is a concern among many in the community," Dettelbach said. Tamir, Russell and Williams were all black, and most of the police shooters are white.

Mayor Jackson's comments were brief. He expressed a commitment by the city to make the necessary policy changes in the police department, and was optimistic that a partnership could be formed between the Department of Justice, the city and the community.

The Justice Department investigation is the second of Cleveland police in the last 10 years, during which time some of the same problems from 2004 resurfaced, while others have been exacerbated, Dettelbach said.

"The use of force by police should be guided by a respect for human life and human dignity, the need to protect public safety, and the duty to protect individuals from unreasonable seizures under the Fourth Amendment," the report said. "A significant amount of the force used by Cleveland police officers falls short of these standards."

Among the key findings in the report are determinations that the city police department:

Fails to adequately review and investigate officers' uses of force. For instance, force incidents are often not properly reported, documented, investigated, or addressed with corrective measures. Supervisors endorse questionable and sometimes criminal conduct by officers. Investigations are designed to justify the officers' actions, often with the goal of casting the accused officer in the most positive light possible.
As Exhibit A, Dettelbach cited the "troubling" case of Edward Henderson, who on New Year's Day 2011 was hospitalized with injuries received from police officers who kicked and kneed him while he was handcuffed. Ten officers were present at the scene, yet no one filed a use-of-force report and no one was disciplined. Henderson sued the city and won a $600,000 settlement.

Fails to fully and objectively investigate all allegations of police misconduct. Officers are disciplined for use of force at an unreasonably low frequency. During the three-year time period examined, only six officers were suspended, and 51 officers disciplined, primarily over procedural issues and not for improper use of force.
Fails to identify and respond to patterns of at-risk behavior. Officers fired their guns at people who did not pose an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury, were overly prone to drawing and pointing their guns, and used guns in a dangerous manner, sometimes hitting people in the head with their weapons. Too often, officers fired their guns haphazardly, putting innocent bystanders at risk. Officers escalated incidents with citizens instead of using tactics to deescalate tension. They punched and Tasered suspects already subdued or in handcuffs – sometimes as punishment for verbal or physical resistance, or against people suffering a mental health crisis. And they used Tasers as a weapon of first-resort instead of their intended use as a weapon of last-resort.
Fails to provide its officers with the support, training, supervision and equipment needed to allow them to do their jobs safely and effectively. The police radios don't work well, the cruisers aren't equipped with computers and maintenance is lacking. Office conditions are messy. Over time, this erodes the morale of the police force and can contribute to diminished professionalism when officers face difficult situations.
"The in-service training needs to be fixed," Dettelbach said. "Their passion for police work gets pounded out of them."

Fails to adopt and enforce appropriate policies and implement effective community policing strategies. The officers' use of excessive force interferes with their ability to gain the trust and cooperation of the community. Too often, the tactics used by officers contributes to community distrust and a lack of respect for the officers. The department must undergo a cultural shift at all levels to change an "us-against-them" mentality that the investigators found all too often.
The report goes out of its way to recognize the challenges faced by police officers in Cleveland and the competency of the majority of members of the department. It acknowledges that police work can be dangerous, and that officers at times must use force to protect lives.

The majority of officers used reasonable force in their line of work and were not in violation of the Constitution, the report said.

"The vast majority of officers are seeking to serve the public as best they can under dangerous and difficult conditions," the report said. "These officers deserve the community's respect and gratitude."

Dettelbach praised the cooperation of Mayor Jackson and the police department, which provided "a vast amount of the information on use-of-force information that we asked for."

He said the city was receptive to suggestions along the way, and in some cases made immediate changes to police policies. But breaking long-held faulty policies won't happen quickly, he said.

"These things take a long time to develop and they stay around for a long time," Dettelbach said. "They're baked into how things are done. Bringing about these changes is not going to be easy. We need willing partners. There are a lot of police officers who want to do things the right way."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/0 ... gun-at-all
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014 ... are_btn_tw
http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/1 ... olice.html
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... vel_1.html
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... ry_package
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/0 ... ess-murder
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... _rice.html
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... story.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... later.html
http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/how-r ... 5827139616
http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.s ... _offe.html
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... ry_package
http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/ ... aj-story-1
TheHammer
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by TheHammer »

Presuming by "the video" you are referring to this one:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/vide ... ing-police

Now, my further statements to this will be based around that video, so if there is another one that may affect my view.
1. Tamir Rice as not seated at a table with other people.
An extraneous and irrelevant detail. In any event, the updated story makes no mention of other people, and quite frankly I don't see how that changes anything.
2. Tamir Rice does not appear to grab the gun and put it in his waistband.
The video is too low quality to make that determination. The Pavilion is too far away to see the gun let alone what is being done with it.

Further, the frame rate doesn't show every action he takes. I'm not a video expert, but it seems to me to be about 2 frames per second. Its like bad stop motion animation. For a key example, look at the video at 17-18 seconds. At 17 seconds he's got the gun out and pointed at something. At 18, its gone. You don't see the frame where he tucked it into his waist. But its gone. You also have people appear to "teleport around" because they are moving faster than the video can capture them.
3. Police shot and killed Tamir in less than two seconds and could not have told him to put his hands up three times.
Again, you can't tell that from the video. There is no way to know when they started shouting for him to get his hands in the air. They might have been calling out as they drove up. Tamir is shot between 1:06-1:07, whereas the police car comes into frame at 1:02, certainly within shouting distance. It seems extremely possible that Tamir went to his waist at 1:05 (addressed in my next point) because he was told to put his hands up, thinking perhaps he could show them its just a toy rather than putting his hands up.

Further, even if they had said absolutely nothing until the car came to a complete stop You can certainly yell "Hands up!" three times within two seconds. Try it for yourself, I bet you can do it within one tick of the clock. A lot can happen in two seconds.
4. Tamir Rice absolutely does not pull the air gun out of his waistband and brandish it in any way. This fact is so crucial.
Between 1:05 and 1:06 (just before he is shot) you can see him lift up his white top in a motion that looks like he is going to his waist. The updated story states he reached for the gun, and certainly seems plausible by those frames. He was probably going to throw it down, or simply show them its not a real gun, but there is no way for the officer to know that.

People seem to harp on the fact that the caller said the gun was "Probably fake", but the officers have to treat it like a real gun until proven different. Obviously the caller wasn't sure on that aspect, otherwise why make the call in the first place?
Frank the Tank
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Frank the Tank »

How many Open Carry Advocates have been shot by police officers when openly brandishing real firearms in public? Why do you suppose those guys aren't being shot the same way as black people carrying pellet guns? It can't possibly have anything to do with the way white society is utterly terrified of young black men and perceives them all as criminals, can it?
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Agent Fisher
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Agent Fisher »

Or it could be that open carry advocates carry their weapons in holsters or slung over the shoulder and do not make sudden movements towards them while speaking with the officers, making sure to keep their hands away from the weapon?
TheHammer
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by TheHammer »

Frank the Tank wrote:How many Open Carry Advocates have been shot by police officers when openly brandishing real firearms in public? Why do you suppose those guys aren't being shot the same way as black people carrying pellet guns? It can't possibly have anything to do with the way white society is utterly terrified of young black men and perceives them all as criminals, can it?
Well I think most "open carry advocates" are often extremely careful about not pointing their weapons at, or threatening people in any way. That would quickly get them arrested. I think a lot of them douchebags who like to walk around with their guns as extensions of their penis, but they know the law and I expect if they were approached by police they'd get their hands up when told to do so, relishing the chance to sue the police dept. One of the key issues in this case was the fact that Tamir was pointing the gun at people (per the 911 call) which meant he was using it in a threatening manner.

When it comes to an "active shooter" type situation, I don't think police take race into as much account. If it had been a white kid going for what looked like a gun when told to raise his hands I expect he'd have met the same fate.
Frank the Tank
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Frank the Tank »

I've seen YouTube videos of (white) open carry advocates walking down a street CARRYING a rifle in their hands, and while police officers do approach them cautiously, they don't shoot first and ask questions later.

As far as the "active shooter" scenario, I doubt that 911 call about Tamir Rice was any different than a 911 call about an open carry advocate walking down a street. The difference is the police officers assumed Tamir Rice was a threat, whereas they tend to respond more respectfully toward (white) open carry advocates. The video of Tamir Rice's shooting certainly doesn't indicate he pointed a weapon at officers.

The (black) man in South Carolina who was shot four times by a police officer while reaching for his wallet wasn't pointing a weapon of any sort at the (white) police officer, but the guy assumed he was armed and dangerous and shot him. Thankfully that officer is being charged and the man he shot lived.

My point is simply that police officers are assuming that black males are armed and dangerous, even when they're not, and there is a trend of them shooting and killing black men unnecessarily.
TheHammer
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by TheHammer »

Frank the Tank wrote:I've seen YouTube videos of (white) open carry advocates walking down a street CARRYING a rifle in their hands, and while police officers do approach them cautiously, they don't shoot first and ask questions later.
Please provide a link or citation supporting this scenario.
As far as the "active shooter" scenario, I doubt that 911 call about Tamir Rice was any different than a 911 call about an open carry advocate walking down a street.
Speculation
The difference is the police officers assumed Tamir Rice was a threat, whereas they tend to respond more respectfully toward (white) open carry advocates. The video of Tamir Rice's shooting certainly doesn't indicate he pointed a weapon at officers.
The 911 call reported that he was pointing the weapon at people. The video showed him pointing the weapon at something. He did not raise his hands when approached, and the video appears to show him lifting his jacket and moving to his waist.

I don't believe he ever got the gun out of his waistband, but going for the gun when being ordered to raise one's hands is almost certainly going to be interpreted as a hostile act warranting deadly force. And I don't believe the color of one's skin would change that fact.
The (black) man in South Carolina who was shot four times by a police officer while reaching for his wallet wasn't pointing a weapon of any sort at the (white) police officer, but the guy assumed he was armed and dangerous and shot him. Thankfully that officer is being charged and the man he shot lived.
Yes that officer clearly over-reacted, and as you noted is going to suffer the consequences for it.
My point is simply that police officers are assuming that black males are armed and dangerous, even when they're not, and there is a trend of them shooting and killing black men unnecessarily.
Some police officers might be presuming that yes. In this case the call was specifically about an armed black male pointing a gun at people. It is not an example of racial bias.
Frank the Tank
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Frank the Tank »

Here's an old white guy carrying his gun on his shoulder: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/1 ... 01883.html

And here's another white guy who appears to be carrying his rifle (admittedly it's first person so I can't see how he's actually carrying it): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF8l_gKQ7WI

And another white guy with a guy who wasn't shot: http://www.guns.com/2013/09/26/michigan ... ct-viddeo/

Now, these are all anecdotes, but they illuminating.


To your last statement, what would be an "example of racial bias," in your mind, if the shooting of Tamir Rice is not?
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Me2005
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Me2005 »

Frank the Tank wrote:Here's an old white guy carrying his gun on his shoulder:...
Speculatively, I'd wager white people more frequently open-carry than just about any other race in this country, so having more examples of whites open-carrying may be meaningless as we'd have insufficient data to show that a black person doing the exact same would be treated differently.

Now, as someone who has had the police called on them because of airsoft guns, I can tell you that the burden really needs to be on the parents and kids using them. The police don't care if you, an amateur and unknown witness, think you saw a fake gun or a real gun that someone is pointing at people - they must treat it as if it were real or risk their very lives and the lives of innocent bystanders. On several instances, the cops came to the place we were using airsoft guns (all in very white neighborhoods) guns drawn. The main reasons we didn't get shot are as follows:

1) We were inside and had put away the airsoft guns by the time the police got there. After they knocked on the door and we explained, on officer put his sidearm side-by-side with one of our airsoft guns, you couldn't tell which was real except for the orange tip on the fake.

2) An officer came to one of our games and looked just like everyone else playing - had his gun out and everything. Fortunately everyone was hiding from everyone else, and someone actually shot the officer before he found any of us. That cleared things up and he lowered his sidearm and let us explain what was going on (with our hands up and airsoft guns dropped).

3) The guns were in bags, holstered, or on shoulders, and when approached we didn't go for them. We could see the officers approaching, so knew to be on good behavior.

I'm pretty sure we've been extremely fortunate. This is still a tragedy, but it's been happening often enough that it needs to be beaten into peoples heads when they get started with airsoft - you need to act as though your airsoft gun is real at all times in public. And even frequently in private - 2 of the above 3 instances took place on private property.

And as an aside, around here you are required to be 18 to buy airsoft guns.
Frank the Tank
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Frank the Tank »

Speculatively I'd argue that white people more frequently open-carry because they don't get shot for doing so.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Grumman »

Frank the Tank wrote:Speculatively I'd argue that white people more frequently open-carry because they don't get shot for doing so.
Or it could just be because white people are more frequently not Democrats. It shouldn't be hard to see the correlation between not wanting to open-carry and voting for the party which on occasion says open carry should be banned.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by TheHammer »

Frank the Tank wrote:Speculatively I'd argue that white people more frequently open-carry because they don't get shot for doing so.
Open Carry - Black Guy in a White Area with an AK-47

How you're carrying a weapon is a big deal. They don't point it at anyone, and its out in the open.

Really, this is actually more akin to conceal carry anyway since the gun was concealed, and then revealed prior to the shooting. Which is why conceal carry permit holders have training and know what to do when encountering police...
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Dominus Atheos »

Like I said, the hits just keep on coming.
amir Rice's teen sister 'tackled,' handcuffed after his shooting, mom says

(CNN) -- As Tamir Rice's 14-year-old sister rushed to her brother's side upon learning he'd been shot, police officers "tackled" her, handcuffed her and placed her in a squad car with the Cleveland officer who shot Tamir, her mother and a Rice family attorney told reporters Monday.

The mother, Samaria Rice, was threatened with arrest herself as she "went charging and yelling at police" because they wouldn't let her run to her son's aid, she said.

...

She ran to the scene, admittedly frantic, and arrived at the same time as an ambulance. Officers wouldn't let her check on her son, she said, "and then I saw my daughter in the back of a police car, the same one the shooter got out of." Family attorney Walter Madison said police placed Tamir's sister in the car with Loehmann.

Samaria Rice said she calmed down and asked police to release her daughter. They told her no, she said. Not only would they not release her daughter, but later, she said, they made her choose: Stay with her daughter or accompany her son to a hospital.

She chose the latter but was told she couldn't ride in the back of the ambulance with her son, so she rode in the front seat on the way to the hospital, she said.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Dominus Atheos wrote:Like I said, the hits just keep on coming.
amir Rice's teen sister 'tackled,' handcuffed after his shooting, mom says

(CNN) -- As Tamir Rice's 14-year-old sister rushed to her brother's side upon learning he'd been shot, police officers "tackled" her, handcuffed her and placed her in a squad car with the Cleveland officer who shot Tamir, her mother and a Rice family attorney told reporters Monday.

The mother, Samaria Rice, was threatened with arrest herself as she "went charging and yelling at police" because they wouldn't let her run to her son's aid, she said.

...

She ran to the scene, admittedly frantic, and arrived at the same time as an ambulance. Officers wouldn't let her check on her son, she said, "and then I saw my daughter in the back of a police car, the same one the shooter got out of." Family attorney Walter Madison said police placed Tamir's sister in the car with Loehmann.

Samaria Rice said she calmed down and asked police to release her daughter. They told her no, she said. Not only would they not release her daughter, but later, she said, they made her choose: Stay with her daughter or accompany her son to a hospital.

She chose the latter but was told she couldn't ride in the back of the ambulance with her son, so she rode in the front seat on the way to the hospital, she said.
Why is this another "hit"?

I get that isn't very sensitive but the scene of a fatal police shooting is a crime scene. That means evidence must be protected and entry must be controlled. Obviously, that doesn't give permission for the police to be brutal in how they do this so their use of force here should be reviewed but I'm tired of these stories of how terrible it is that someone wasn't allowed to see their loved one after a major incident. That's just how it is.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Dominus Atheos »

At the time, it wasn't a fatal police shooting yet. Tamir Rice was still alive when they arrested his sister and forced his mother to either stay with the sister or ride in the front of the ambulance.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Flagg »

I love how the scum of the board will come rising out of the sewers to even defend worthless pigs murdering children.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Dominus Atheos wrote:At the time, it wasn't a fatal police shooting yet. Tamir Rice was still alive when they arrested his sister and forced his mother to either stay with the sister or ride in the front of the ambulance.
Do you really think that changes the status of whether or not it is a crime scene and that evidence must be protected?
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Grumman »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:At the time, it wasn't a fatal police shooting yet. Tamir Rice was still alive when they arrested his sister and forced his mother to either stay with the sister or ride in the front of the ambulance.
Do you really think that changes the status of whether or not it is a crime scene and that evidence must be protected?
What possible evidence would you hope to protect to be worth not allowing the twelve year old child you just mortally wounded to spend what might be his last moments with his mother?
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Agent Fisher »

Grumman wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:At the time, it wasn't a fatal police shooting yet. Tamir Rice was still alive when they arrested his sister and forced his mother to either stay with the sister or ride in the front of the ambulance.
Do you really think that changes the status of whether or not it is a crime scene and that evidence must be protected?
What possible evidence would you hope to protect to be worth not allowing the twelve year old child you just mortally wounded to spend what might be his last moments with his mother?
For the issue of sitting in the front seat of the ambulance, alot of ambulance companies and fire departments have started moving away from allowing family to sit in the back when someone is critically injured, it adds an unstable element that the medic in the back doesn't need to deal with while trying to treat the patient. Mainly the issue of them getting in the way while just administering aid, or if the person in the back crashes, you don't want the mother freaking out back there.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Grumman »

Agent Fisher wrote:For the issue of sitting in the front seat of the ambulance, alot of ambulance companies and fire departments have started moving away from allowing family to sit in the back when someone is critically injured, it adds an unstable element that the medic in the back doesn't need to deal with while trying to treat the patient. Mainly the issue of them getting in the way while just administering aid, or if the person in the back crashes, you don't want the mother freaking out back there.
That's a fair answer. The EMTs could certainly have valid reasons to want everyone to stay out of the way.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Mr Bean »

Grumman wrote:
Agent Fisher wrote:For the issue of sitting in the front seat of the ambulance, alot of ambulance companies and fire departments have started moving away from allowing family to sit in the back when someone is critically injured, it adds an unstable element that the medic in the back doesn't need to deal with while trying to treat the patient. Mainly the issue of them getting in the way while just administering aid, or if the person in the back crashes, you don't want the mother freaking out back there.
That's a fair answer. The EMTs could certainly have valid reasons to want everyone to stay out of the way.
This is a valid answer. Ambulances are not hospital rooms. They are build so there is roughly just the amount of room you need to keep an individual alive and have easy access to all the materials to do so. Yes some EMT's will let you ride in the back and hold your son's hand but typically your just going to get in the way of the people trying to save a life.

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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Grumman wrote: What possible evidence would you hope to protect to be worth not allowing the twelve year old child you just mortally wounded to spend what might be his last moments with his mother?
Casing distribution for one. Casing distribution plays an important role in scene reconstruction. Obviously the camera is superior but they may not have known it existed but more importantly this is what forensic experts that have degrees tell the police they should do. So they follow the training.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Dominus Atheos »

So this 1960's ad has been making the rounds in response to this shooting:



You'll notice that those kids didn't get shot to death after the police saw their toy guns. I wonder what the difference between those kids and Tamir Rice is...
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

I doubt the company in question would sale many of their toys if they showed their children pointing these toys at officers and the officers shooting them dead.
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Re: Tamir Rice shooting

Post by RogueIce »

Dominus Atheos wrote:You'll notice that those kids didn't get shot to death after the police saw their toy guns. I wonder what the difference between those kids and Tamir Rice is...
Because it's a staged commercial and those probably weren't even real cops?
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