meanwhile in Vietnam

[madd0ct0r]

The gossip mill and poLinux blogs report the ex chairman of da nang city, a notoriously democratic and compent reformer, has not been poisoned with polonium. He has merely had a Fast moving leukaemia and had treatment in America under their leading specialist in radiation poisoning.

It is thought this is unconnected with his failed attempt to join the politburo, leading to heading a anti-corruption commission, with a major report due.

[Jub]

That sounds like good news, at least the bit about him not being poisoned. I hope that the leukemia turns out to be treatable and that the corruption situation is brought under control in a timely fashion.

[White Haven]

And the point saaails by...



In all seriousness, aren't t here a great many easier ways to poison someone? I've never really understood the point of 'Hah, we'll give him cancer!' as an assassination tool.

[Jub]

I haven't follow the situation at all, but generally it's a good thing when it turns out that people haven't been poisoned. If this was being used as a way to point fingers at an opposition party that's fucked up, but I'd still rather see that kind of corruption than outright assassinations.

[SCRawl]

I haven't follow the situation at all, but generally it's a good thing when it turns out that people haven't been poisoned. If this was being used as a way to point fingers at an opposition party that's fucked up, but I'd still rather see that kind of corruption than outright assassinations.

The moderately veiled suggestion by the OP is that the public servant in question has in fact been poisoned, despite reports to the contrary. This is the point that you missed.

[Jub]

I haven't follow the situation at all, but generally it's a good thing when it turns out that people haven't been poisoned. If this was being used as a way to point fingers at an opposition party that's fucked up, but I'd still rather see that kind of corruption than outright assassinations.

The moderately veiled suggestion by the OP is that the public servant in question has in fact been poisoned, despite reports to the contrary. This is the point that you missed.

Shit, I see it now.

That's what I get for posting during a break at hour 9 of a midnight to noon shift.

[Iroscato]

I didn't get it first time either.
Why does polonium keep getting used to poison high-level officials or enemies of the state? Surely it's too much of an instant red flag to be used effectively these days.

[Metahive]

Because death by radiation poisoning is one of the nastiest deaths one can suffer? Imagine your body slowly falling apart all around you, that's what those people are experiencing. The intent is terror and intimidation. Don't cross us or this will be your fate!

[Tanasinn]

Metahive gets it. It isn't supposed to be subtle, it's supposed to be intimidation. No one would believe a subtle method was coincidence, anyway, so you may as well go for intimidation.

[Iroscato]

Yes, I see what you mean.
Apologies, still nursing a hangover that just refuses to die

[Simon_Jester]

Also, a radioactive polonium sample can be placed somewhere and quietly irradiate someone to death over a long period of time, without being detected unless the guy's wearing a dosimeter or waving a Geiger counter around. This allows someone to accumulate a lethal dose of radiation before even knowing they have done so.

Chemical poisons usually have more detectable symptoms in the short term, and for someone with ready access to modern hospital facilities it's a lot harder to actually kill someone with such a poison.

[Broomstick]

The thing is, polonium is expensive. You'd think there was something else radioactive that's a little less pricey.

[madd0ct0r]

it's also a KGB signiture. I'm not aware of any current russian interests in Vietnam, but there is still a large emigre population of Vietnamese in Russia*, quite a few friends in the system studied in moscow, so for the previous generation I'd be ready to believe certain rich individuals who were not at all going to be named in the corruption report may have contacts in the obligarchs



*they only turn up on the news when local skinheads kill a few more

[mr friendly guy]

The thing is, polonium is expensive. You'd think there was something else radioactive that's a little less pricey.

I have no idea about the prices of nuclear isotopes, but from what I remember with the polonium episode a few years ago it was supposed to be pricey. Another suspect thallium, is presumably less pricey. Heck thallium is used in various nuclear medical scans, so it can't be that pricey.

[Irbis]

it's also a KGB signiture. I'm not aware of any current russian interests in Vietnam, but there is still a large emigre population of Vietnamese in Russia*, quite a few friends in the system studied in moscow, so for the previous generation I'd be ready to believe certain rich individuals who were not at all going to be named in the corruption report may have contacts in the obligarchs

There's large emigrant population of Vietnamese in most if not all of ex-Warsaw Pact countries. You know, 'extending helping hand to bombed allied country with lower level of development' commie way. Free spots on universities, orphanages, hospitals, quite a few of them had nowhere to go or liked new country better than old. Hell, in big cities gold-red fast food front will belong to small stylised Vietnamese restaurant more often than to McDonald's.

The thing is, polonium is expensive. You'd think there was something else radioactive that's a little less pricey.

It's not just expensive, but also only available from nuclear transmutation. All polonium we use is entirely man made. Unless these guys stole spent radiation source from hospital somewhere, it also shows big connections.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The thing is, polonium is expensive. You'd think there was something else radioactive that's a little less pricey.

Why would you want something inexpensive? If you are going to go for intimidation factor, nothing says scary like "something only a state actor can readily obtain, ever"

"Hello victim/enemy and anyone who follows him/her. This is The State calling, here to inform you of your horribly painful lingering demise."

[Simon_Jester]

Two other points:

1) It may well be that whoever is responsible for the assassination has only a limited grasp of chemistry or nuclear physics, and went "yeah, polonium, that stuff the KGB used, let's use that, oh, it'll cost a hundred thousand dollars? Well, that's good for intimidation. Radioactive stuff is exotic, right? It can't be cheap." No actual comparison shopping involved by someone competent to determine what would be the most cost-effective means.

2) It may be that this material was procured specifically through some known channel in use by the former KGB or former Soviet bloc, that specifically makes polonium on demand for assassination purposes. In which case its black market price is irrelevant, because if you already have a bunch of bribable people at a nuclear reactor somewhere in Omsk or whatever who will just make batches of polonium in exchange for a retainer fee that they're already being paid anyway... yeah.

[Irbis]

In which case its black market price is irrelevant, because if you already have a bunch of bribable people at a nuclear reactor somewhere in Omsk or whatever who will just make batches of polonium in exchange for a retainer fee that they're already being paid anyway...

Actually, I just looked it up, and it looks like safest, quickest way to get it for a small fee is not in Russia. It's in our favourite land of armed bears, killy stuff with no licence needed:

http://www.unitednuclear.com/index.php? ... &cPath=2_5

Just buy lead pig, load some polonium disc sources inside, put on Vietnamese freighter, ship, done, you have your own wannabe KGB assassin kit

[Broomstick]

It looks like the poloniumin that source you link to is already embedded in something else, and exists only in microgram quantities (if that). You'd have to have a means of pulling the polonium out of that matrix in order to make it an assassination tool.

[Irbis]

It looks like the poloniumin that source you link to is already embedded in something else, and exists only in microgram quantities (if that). You'd have to have a means of pulling the polonium out of that matrix in order to make it an assassination tool.

Microgram quantities, maybe, but polonium can be fatal in as low dose as 50 nanogram. How hard would dissolving or grinding some resin would need to be so you couldn't reliably extract even such small dose?

And besides, you don't even need to do that. If you have reliable access to a place where victim is expected to be often you can hide the discs in furniture or car or something. They are certainly small enough to not be noticed in a lot of places.

[LaCroix]

Polonium needs to be ingested for "die painfully within a few week" assassination purposes. Relying on exposure (hiding it in their chair to give them butt cancer or something) would not work, as it is an alpha emitter. You could sit on it for years without any relevant danger to life - but ingest it, and it fuck you up so properly, you will call for a bullet to the head just to end it.

[madd0ct0r]

well, I should point out this is gossip mill stuff, and polonium may have been picked up on becuase of Alexander Litvenko.

The old man is returning to Da Nang tomorrow, or maybe the day after (papers keep publishing and retracting articles).
Last week there was a crowd waiting for him at the airport. He's corrupt, but the best of a terrible bunch.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It looks like the poloniumin that source you link to is already embedded in something else, and exists only in microgram quantities (if that). You'd have to have a means of pulling the polonium out of that matrix in order to make it an assassination tool.

Microgram quantities, maybe, but polonium can be fatal in as low dose as 50 nanogram. How hard would dissolving or grinding some resin would need to be so you couldn't reliably extract even such small dose?

And besides, you don't even need to do that. If you have reliable access to a place where victim is expected to be often you can hide the discs in furniture or car or something. They are certainly small enough to not be noticed in a lot of places.

This is what happens when someone who does not understand chemistry at all decides to talk about chemistry.

The Polonium is part of the resin, as in, tiny quantities are mixed with the epoxy. They can still be used as an alpha emitter for very small amounts of radiation, but that is about it.

You cannot just grind the resin. All you get then is a bunch of small particles with polonium still embedded in them. Next to useless for assassination purposes, because a piece of paper will block an alpha particle.

They are likely using a resin that is very difficult to dissolve once it sets, and even if you can dissolve it, you then have to purify out the polonium.

[SpottedKitty]

Polonium needs to be ingested for "die painfully within a few week" assassination purposes.

<nod> Look up the Litvinenko case. I can't remember if it was ever worked out for sure how he'd eaten the stuff, but that's the only way his health could have gone downhill so quickly.

Relying on exposure (hiding it in their chair to give them butt cancer or something) would not work, as it is an alpha emitter.

For anyone curious, what this actually means in practice is the radiation would be stopped by nothing more than a few inches of air, or a sheet of paper. Even skin gives pretty good protection, especially since skin is being shed all the time, taking away any lingering contamination with it. Even sticking a chunk of an alpha emitter to your bare skin for a few months might only give a slightly higher chance of skin cancer in several years' time. Not what I'd call an efficient assassination method.

[Tsyroc]

<nod> Look up the Litvinenko case. I can't remember if it was ever worked out for sure how he'd eaten the stuff, but that's the only way his health could have gone downhill so quickly.

I thought they were able to trace lingering radiation back to a cup he had drunk from but I'm remembering this from something I saw years ago.