Insane rant from a German Imman

[Thanas]

Link

Look who just got #1 on the "next to be thrown out" list our security services really not definitely notmaybe have.

[salm]

Ah, just like our grandparents and parents were back in the 50s.

[Thanas]

Ah, just like our grandparents and parents were back in the 50s.

You must have had very conservative grandparents.

[salm]

Ah, just like our grandparents and parents were back in the 50s.

You must have had very conservative grandparents.

Why? There are heavy parallels between the crap this imam is promoting and western society in the 50s.
Women were made equal before the law only in 1957 in Germany. If a woman wanted to move out they needed the agreement of their fathers for example. Their husbands were allowed to deciede if they could take a job and could take the job away from them at any time. If a woman denied to have sex with her husband it was a reason for the husband to get a divorce (which was difficult at the time). If the woman had sex with other partners the husband could get a divorce without having to pay alimony for his kids.
Men were allowed to override most decissions of their wives. (Letztenscheidungsrecht)
Women were not allowed to decide over financial things in a marriage. Not even over the money they brought into the marriage themselves.
The law even went so far that woman had to have sex with their partners in a dedicated way, meaning that they may not only lie there like a corpse but have to activly participate.
Spousal rape was legal until 1997.

So we have both of the imams demands - female employment and maritial sexual nonsense - covered, even in 1950s law. The whole social liberation thing only happened in the late 60s.

Really, our society hasn´t been as rosy as it is now for that many years and this imam would have been a pretty average dude in the 50s if he swapped his funny costume for a suit and a felt hat.

[Thanas]

Really, our society hasn´t been as rosy as it is now for that many years and this imam would have been a pretty average dude in the 50s if he swapped his funny costume for a suit and a felt hat.

I disagree with that. For example, the majority of women were working ever since the war. His opinion might have been acceptable back then but it wasn't reality.

In any case, none of that has any bearing on his ranting now. I mean, 65 years ago it was acceptable to argue for the extermination of undesirables, none of that still flies.

[Thunderfire]

You must have had very conservative grandparents.

salm is southern german AFAIK. Several souther/western germans still think that "Kinder, Küche, Kirche" is a good idea. Lets take a look at woman rights in west germany before 1980.

- Terminating her work contract was an option for her husband until 1958
- She needed her husbands permission if she wanted to work again until 1977

west germany was arch conservative before 1970. The 68er and the sexual revolution in the nineteen seventies slowly changed that.

[salm]

Really, our society hasn´t been as rosy as it is now for that many years and this imam would have been a pretty average dude in the 50s if he swapped his funny costume for a suit and a felt hat.

I disagree with that. For example, the majority of women were working ever since the war. His opinion might have been acceptable back then but it wasn't reality.
In any case, none of that has any bearing on his ranting now. I mean, 65 years ago it was acceptable to argue for the extermination of undesirables, none of that still flies.

Yeah, because onyl very few men were available due to them being dead or captured. However, as soon as normality returned women returned to the stove and cradle and men took over job market.
Obviously there allways was a portion of women in a job but the average family model was husband = bread earner and wife = housewife. That combined with the law being hostile towards women and opinions like the imams being perfectly socially acceptable make 50s society similar enough to me for this to be a valid comparison.

As for this having bearing on his ranting: I think it does because it demonstrates how widely accepted social attitudes can change very rapidly for a whole population or in this case a subset of the population. It is entirely possible (and in my oppinion very likely) that his nuttery will vanish with the next one or two generations of his audience, just like our grandparents nuttery vanished.
Throwing out nutbags like him should not be goal. The goal should be having a society in which nutbags like him don´t matter because nobody listens.

[Thanas]

Yeah, because onyl very few men were available due to them being dead or captured. However, as soon as normality returned women returned to the stove and cradle and men took over job market. Obviously there allways was a portion of women in a job but the average family model was husband = bread earner and wife = housewife. That combined with the law being hostile towards women and opinions like the imams being perfectly socially acceptable make 50s society similar enough to me for this to be a valid comparison.

Do you have a statistic? Because IIRC at least 60% of married women were working and unmarried women working were even higher.

As for this having bearing on his ranting: I think it does because it demonstrates how widely accepted social attitudes can change very rapidly for a whole population or in this case a subset of the population. It is entirely possible (and in my oppinion very likely) that his nuttery will vanish with the next one or two generations of his audience, just like our grandparents nuttery vanished.
Throwing out nutbags like him should not be goal. The goal should be having a society in which nutbags like him don´t matter because nobody listens.

Well, sure. The younger generation already has fewer kids and more "liberal" morals, for lack of a better term. However, to my knowledge, he is not an immigrant. IIRC he was invited to speak there by the congregation. I think we should definitely throw out nutbags who come here to preach this anti-democratic stuff. He is no different as if we would invite a Russian neo nazi to speak about how Islam should be banned.

[Thanas]

And he has been thrown out of the mosque. That was quick.

[Broomstick]

Do you have a statistic? Because IIRC at least 60% of married women were working and unmarried women working were even higher.

That could mean in 60% of marriages the husband gave permission to the wife to work, maybe he liked having the extra household income, but it doesn't mean women were held to be equal, or had equal legal status, or that woman-as-housewife wasn't the societal ideal of the time.

Likewise, I remember when "marital rape" was usually considered an oxymoron in most of the west. Most men probably didn't impose themselves by force on their wives because most men have some affection for their wives and would rather not hurt them. That doesn't erase the fact that spousal rape was pretty much legal everywhere through middle of the 20th Century.

The imman strikes me as one of those people who are imaging some golden age just a generation or two before now and want to return to that paradise, either not realizing or not caring that the reality wasn't nearly as pretty as they think it was.

[K. A. Pital]

Spousal rape was only criminalized in the West at a very late stage in the XX century. There were slight differences between countries, but it was generally very late and this clearly exposes the misogynist nature of societies where Abrahamic religion and Victorian moral codes continually played a major role.

[Flagg]

Spousal rape was only criminalized in the West at a very late stage in the XX century. There were slight differences between countries, but it was generally very late and this clearly exposes the misogynist nature of societies where Abrahamic religion and Victorian moral codes continually played a major role.

Shit dude, I know you probably just mean Europe when you say "the west", but if you're including America, spousal rape is still considered "not a crime" by a lot of people despite the laws on the books.

[K. A. Pital]

You serious? I mean, you are talking about social attitude or a judge just dropping a case because he feels spousal rape's OK?

[Alyrium Denryle]

You serious? I mean, you are talking about social attitude or a judge just dropping a case because he feels spousal rape's OK?

Societal attitudes, depending on where one happens to be. Though I am sure the latter has occurred. Marital rape convictions are almost impossible to obtain unless the victim is visibly beaten.

[wautd]

Link

Look who just got #1 on the "next to be thrown out" list our security services really not definitely notmaybe have.

I wouldn't be surprised if that religious fascist scumbag would be reqruiting ISIL wannabees in his free time

[Thanas]

They are, which is why the mosque has been under fire before. They belong to the salafists.

[Zaune]

Societal attitudes, depending on where one happens to be. Though I am sure the latter has occurred. Marital rape convictions are almost impossible to obtain unless the victim is visibly beaten.

Well, in all fairness, it's not exactly straightforward to get non-marital rape convictions either. Proof beyond reasonable doubt's a bitch to get when the evidence boils down to one person's word against another's.

[Hillary]

Spousal rape was only criminalized in the West at a very late stage in the XX century. There were slight differences between countries, but it was generally very late and this clearly exposes the misogynist nature of societies where Abrahamic religion and Victorian moral codes continually played a major role.

Very true. 1990 in the UK - and it took a female PM over 10 years to finally sort it out.