Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

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Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Soontir C'boath »

CityLab wrote: The cause of Tuesday night’s Amtrak passenger train derailment in north Philadelphia is still unknown. Dozens were injured and six killed among the 243 passengers and crew who were on board Northeast Regional Train 188, which was traveling from Washington, D.C. to New York City.

NTSB officials arrived at the scene this morning. Hundreds of police and firefighters were at the crash site late last night along with dozens of F.B.I. and Department of Homeland Security officials, according to the New York Times.

Amtrak service between New York and Philadelphia is suspended today. Philadelphia mayor Michael Nutter says it’s likely service will remain suspended the rest of the week. Having just returned from the crash site, the mayor told reporters late last night, “t is an absolute disastrous mess. I have never seen anything like this in my life.”

Here is a couple of the images from the article:
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 6 Dead & Over 140 Injured

Post by Borgholio »

Jesus...looks like it got hit by a fucking tornado.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 6 Dead & Over 140 Injured

Post by Dalton »

7 dead now - there was a body found UNDER the train.

Also it was travelling over 100mph when it hit that curve.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Sea Skimmer »

That only seven people are known dead at this point is just a miracle. It is very lucky this train was light on passengers.

The train according to the NTSB this afternoon was going 107mph into a 50mph curve, in a section of track prior in which it should not have gone over 70mph. ATC was on too, so it is unclear how this might have occured except for the driver to have overridden the automatic controls. The emergency brake was hit 3 seconds before the data ends, which is probably when the driver physically saw the curve, which is beside a rail yard with some serious lighting. The curve is located after a long straight across North Phily, and before a very long straight to Trenton which allows 120mph. And would allow higher speed in terms of its total lack of curves, but the track isn't rated for it. The driver may simply have forgotten about this curve, but that still doesn't explain the ATC issue.

On a personal note this was close enough to my house that I could sort of hear the aftermath, though I didn't notice the crash and wasn't aware of it for about a half an hour. From what some people are saying around here ohad I been outside I would have heard it. A friend was in the Lows near the junction and said even inside the store it sounded like a massive 10 second long constant car crash. Which sounds about right.

Sadly the PRR wanted this curve gone close to a century ago, but it never happened. When the track was first built much earlier then that 50mph was very fast for a regular train. They got as far as buying the land to change the alignment to a much shallower angle, but IIRC it was the Great Depression that scuttled the actual work, and by the time WW2 was over the era of big budget investment in railroads in the US was already dead. A lot of people died in a 1943 wreck; but that was caused by a hot box and could have been just as bad on a lesser curve. In that case one carriage slammed directly into a steel tower structure and simply came apart. Rather like the lead passenger car in this crash just came apart. But in 1943 it was completely packed with people.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 6 Dead & Over 140 Injured

Post by Lord Revan »

Borgholio wrote:Jesus...looks like it got hit by a fucking tornado.
there's alot of power on those trains. When I worked in a summer job for the national railway Company here they had a policy that you had to stand quite a distance away from the tracks when working near them so that a passing train wouldn't suck you in. The same reason why train and metro stations have the safety line you're not suppose to cross unless you're boarding or exiting a train.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Sea Skimmer »

http://media.columbian.com/img/croppedp ... -0d49f.jpg
Best single aerial image I've seen. 2952 × 1974 image so be warned
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Gaidin »

Just gonna ask...does it say something of the engineering of the vehicle itself(controls aside) that only 7 have died when it hits that curve at 2x the speed and derails like that?
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Channel72 »

As a side note, Amtrak is so overpriced. It's like, a ticket from NYC to DC or Boston costs almost as much as flying there. Flying is much faster too, but it probably evens out due to the time of waiting to check in at the airport. And Amtrak is totally useless for local trips - because it costs like 5x the cost of the local railroad like NJ transit. Did I mention the US sucks at trains?
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Broomstick »

I started taking Amtak between Chicago and Detroit because

1) door-to-door it was faster than trying to get to the airport, go through security, board, wait, take-off, fly, get off, get through the airport, and then get a ride to my destination. (Except for that one time we were in an accident and wound up six hours delayed, but shit happens)

2) Trains are the very last mode of transportation to stop running in bad weather. As half the time I was traveling in winter this was significant. I really didn't want to spend the night sleeping on a bench at Midway. Again.

Yes, compared to Europe, the US train system sucks.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by FSTargetDrone »

As of early Thursday morning, roughly 12 people are still missing.

NTSB video from the day after:



And a general report from the CBC's The National since I can't find any local coverage I can inline here:

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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Gaidin wrote:Just gonna ask...does it say something of the engineering of the vehicle itself(controls aside) that only 7 have died when it hits that curve at 2x the speed and derails like that?
US passenger cars are indeed very strongly built, but it appears the death toll was not much higher only because the lead passenger car was the business class car and simply didn't have very many people in it at all. It was just not a popular time of night to make that sort of trip. The toll on those who were inside was very heavy.

As well as it was pure luck that the sidings several of the less damaged carriages crashed into were empty at the time. Those tracks are often filled with industrial chemical and oil tank cars. Hitting them might not have started a fire or released toxic gas into the wreck, but even just impacting them would have increased injuries.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Channel72 wrote:As a side note, Amtrak is so overpriced. It's like, a ticket from NYC to DC or Boston costs almost as much as flying there. Flying is much faster too, but it probably evens out due to the time of waiting to check in at the airport. And Amtrak is totally useless for local trips - because it costs like 5x the cost of the local railroad like NJ transit. Did I mention the US sucks at trains?
Amtrak sells tickets people are willing to pay. Also, Amtrak and a commuter railroad like NJT offer different amenities such as more comfortable seats and faster travel. Amtrak also doesn't necessarily want to have a seat taken up by someone who is only taking a short ride from NYP to Newark or Metropark, etc so they can sell tickets to people traveling to Philly/Baltimore/DC/etc. That's what NJT is there for.

If you ever took the LIRR within NYC, you would notice on-peak fare is $8 for that very reason so they get city people to rather take the subway and let the LI commuters have a seat on the train.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Channel72 »

I doubt the LIRR peak fare has much to do with that. The subway doesn't extend east of Jamaica, so the peak-fare mostly affects commuters coming from Nassau/Suffolk during the morning/evening rush hour. People taking the LIRR from within the city, coming from places where no subway is available (like from Bayside or whatever) account for a very small percentage of LIRR commuters. There are few places where commuters have a choice of both LIRR and subway - either you are commuting from east of Jamaica, in which case your only choice is LIRR or bus, or you're commuting from west of Jamaica, in which case the LIRR is only an option if you're close to like Woodside/Kew Gardens or you're in Brooklyn near Atlantic Terminal.

But yeah, anyway, Amtrak is definitely more luxurious than something like NJ transit or LIRR.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Soontir C'boath »

I think you possibly have read my statement wrong. I meant stations like Woodside, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, Flushing, Jamaica, etc which do have subway stations that the LIRR would rather people take. So they charge people $8.25 and make people think of taking the E train to Jamaica instead. But to go with your comment last year, Bayside to Penn Station was ninth highest in ticket sales last year.

Google Spreadsheet by The LIRR Today
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

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The engineer claims he has no memory of the crash:
Amtrak Engineer Doesn't Remember Crash, Attorney Says

DAVID KERLEY

Updated 1 hr 34 mins ago

The engineer of the Amtrak train that crashed in Philadelphia "has absolutely no recollection of the incident or anything unusual" and "no explanation" for what caused the crash, his attorney told ABC News.

The engineer, Brandon Bostian, 32, of Queens, New York, was "very distraught" to learn that the crash killed at least seven people, the attorney, Robert Goggin, told ABC News. He added that Bostian voluntarily turned over a blood sample and his cell phone and is cooperating with authorities.

"I asked him if he had any medical issues," Goggin said. "He said he had none. He's on no medications ... He has no health issues to speak of and just has no explanation."

Goggin noted Bostian suffered injuries in the crash, including a concussion and injuries to his legs that required treatment at a hospital.

"He remembers driving the train," Goggin said. "He remembers going to that area generally, [but] has absolutely no recollection of the incident or anything unusual. He recalls -- the next thing he recalls is being thrown around, coming to, finding his bag, getting his cell phone and dialing 911."

Later, however, Bostian learned the details.

"The television was on in the police district, and the constant count and recounting of the incident was being broadcast in his face all morning, and he was distraught," Goggin said.

Though Bostian retained an attorney, Goggin said, he has not stopped cooperating with police, and was willing to speak to National Transportation Safety Board investigators, as well.

An NTSB board member said an initial review of the train's data recorder shows that the train was going 106 mph three seconds before the recording ended, when the engineer pressed the full emergency brake application. The train was going 102 mph at the end of the recording. There is a 50 mph limit at the curve where the train derailed and a 70 mph limit for regional trains in the area preceding the curve, so the reason why the train was going so fast will be one of the biggest questions facing investigators.

Goggin said Bostian does not remember setting the emergency brake.

"He said he was pulling into speed-restricted track," Goggin said. "It was on speed-restricted track, and the next thing he recalls is waking up and looking for his cell phone."


Goggin said his client spent a great deal of time with police before he arrived.

"He was at the disposal of the police for six hours before I -- or five hours -- before I got on scene," Goggin said.

"Among other things, they indicated that they wanted to get a search warrant for his blood, which we consented to," Goggin added. "He said, 'You don't need a search warrant, happy to give it to you.' It had already been drawn at Einstein Hospital. They asked for his cell phone, which they had. [We] said, 'Have it. Take all the information you want. You don't need a search warrant for that either. We'll give it to you.' I'm assuming [authorities asked for the phone] because they want to see whether he was on the telephone at the time of the accident. So he's cooperated, and not only that, he's indicated that he would make himself available to the police if they need any more information."

Goggin described his client's physical condition as "pretty beat up." Besides a concussion, he said, "He's got 14 staples in his head, several stitches in his leg. He has one leg, the other leg immobilized with a knee problem. What he looked was exhausted."

Even so, Goggin said, Bostian shares the same concerns as other interested parties.

"The main concern is just the overwhelming tragedy, the loss of life, the injuries to so many people," Goggin said. "That's really the concern right now. That's his concern, that's the union's concern, I'm certain [it's] Amtrak's concern. It's a tragedy on all fronts."

According to his LinkedIn profile, Bostian has worked at Amtrak for nearly nine years, the first half of which he spent as a passenger conductor before he became a passenger engineer in December 2010.

ABC News' Meghan Keneally and Freda Kahen-Kashi contributed to this report.
I'm not necessarily surprised he doesn't remember it, but for his sake he better hope it was a mechanical issue or something else out of his control.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Channel72 »

6abc.com wrote:There is a 50 mph limit at the curve where the train derailed and a 70 mph limit for regional trains in the area preceding the curve, so the reason why the train was going so fast will be one of the biggest questions facing investigators.
This seems pretty damning... I mean, the train was going 103 around a speed-restricted curve. There doesn't seem to be much of a variety of explanations here that don't somehow involve human negligence. But it's bizarre that somebody with 9 years of experience would suddenly just do something so reckless and negligent.
Soontir C'boath wrote: But to go with your comment last year, Bayside to Penn Station was ninth highest in ticket sales last year.
That makes sense, as there is no subway access to Bayside.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Borgholio »

But it's bizarre that somebody with 9 years of experience would suddenly just do something so reckless and negligent.
Yeah given that info I'm actually leaning towards a stuck throttle or something. Train keeps accelerating, he tries to stop it, realizes he can't, so he hits the emergency brake. But it's too late at that point.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Broomstick »

Other possibilities are a sudden medical event, like a seizure or stroke. Train engineers do get regular medical exams, but it is possible for something like that come on suddenly in a seemingly healthy person.

Even so, the most likely explanation is human error. We'll have to see what the investigation reveals.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Gaidin »

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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Broomstick »

That's true of something like 99% of the railroad track in the US.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Gaidin »

Broomstick wrote:That's true of something like 99% of the railroad track in the US.
Well, I think the point that one's making is that other areas have it, and that spot specifically didn't. 99% is a pretty irrelevant statement when it comes to this crash.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Broomstick »

OK, about 50% of that particular route is without those safety features.

The problem, as usual, comes down to "who is going to pay for this?". Train crashes are rare events, it's hard to convince people to fund safety features to avoid rare events.
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Gaidin wrote:Human error or no, the area also lacked the latest safety controls.
The system was physically installed in fact, but not yet approved for operation due to the FCC holding up approval of its radio operations in Philadelphia. Oh and congress mandated this without providing any money to pay for the estimated 12 billion dollar cost. Yet it funds billions and billions for highways that kill people by the thousands and thousands a year. A project to widen a few miles of I-95 just in Phily is getting more money then Amtrak gets in an entire year for a nationwide service system.

Imagine what would happen if suddenly one day the US congress said every single car and truck in the US must have an active rear end collision prevention system, as handfuls of new production cars do, and that everyone had four years to get this installed on there own dime or the vehicle would become illegal on federal highways. THAT would save more lives by any measure then PTC ever will, but nobody would ever even remotely accept it. Meanwhile federal aid to Amtrak for other purposes has been steadily cut further and further for years now. Amtrak expects it to end completely in the near future. The media is really really pathetic at the moment in its attempt to play 'gotcha'. Meanwhile the media idiots doing the local news coverage in Phily couldn't even figure out one of the cars was smashed to pieces at the center of the unending helicopter feed for over two hours. :roll:
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Soontir C'boath »

I am not sure if they check the recorders yet as they used the GPS tracking system to check the train's speed, but I would raise the possibility that the locomotive could have been at fault. The ACS-64 was introduced relatively recently and there may have been a bug they didn't discover.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: Amtrak Train Derailed 7 Dead & Over 200 Injured

Post by Broomstick »

They started analyzing the black box almost immediately - that is, after all, why the thing is on the train, to record things that happen. Like airplane crashes, though, they take some time to go over everything.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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