Nebraska bans death penalty

[Thanas]

NYT

LINCOLN, Neb. — Nebraska on Wednesday became the first conservative state in more than 40 years to abolish the death penalty, with lawmakers defying their Republican governor, Pete Ricketts, a staunch supporter of capital punishment who had lobbied vigorously against banning it.

After more than two hours of emotional speeches at the Capitol here, the Legislature, by a 30-to-19 vote that cut across party lines, overrode the governor’s veto of a bill repealing the state’s death penalty law. After the repeal measure passed, by just enough votes to overcome the veto, dozens of spectators in the balcony burst into celebration.

More at the link.

[salm]

Congrats to Nebraska.

[Enigma]

Congrats to Nebraska.

Yes, and congrats to them for overcoming a nasty case of Ricket(t)s.

[Borgholio]

Took guts for them to do that. Kudos.

[Zor]

Good for them.

Zor

[Titan Uranus]

The most interesting thing here is that the coalition primarily consisted of Republicans who voted to remove it on the grounds that it is a waste of money. That's probably the smartest way to go after it, as long as you can find actual fiscal conservatives.

[cmdrjones]

The most interesting thing here is that the coalition primarily consisted of Republicans who voted to remove it on the grounds that it is a waste of money. That's probably the smartest way to go after it, as long as you can find actual fiscal conservatives.

I concur. I had a wonderful conversation with an Ex-con about the US Justice system and despite opposing the death penalty on religious grounds, (I find the fiscal conservative argument secondary, yet important) we sat down and outlined a better way to deal with the US crime problem.

#1 remove the death penalty
#2 remove mandatory sentencing (3 strikes laws etc) it creates permanent felons with no way out of the system.
#3 make non-violent drug offenders do far less time in prison
#4 make prison suck so bad nobody would EVER want to go back (No TV, no getting 'prison big', bland tasteless food, labor is mandatory to get priviliges, all wages put into two accounts 1/2 for your victims 1/2 for you when you get out. If you act up, $$ goes from account 2 back to account 1, basically the joe arpaio method w some changes)
#5 remove or drastically reduce the motivation for corporations to exploit prison labor (i.e. a massive tax on 'profits' for prison labor to reduce the incentive to lock people up so the state or corps can benefit from thier labor, also increase penalties for those who conspire to deprive prisoners of their rights, and make it a federal crime)
#6 prisoners MUST get basic education inside to get any time off for good behavior, conjugal visits etc. anything besides sit in your room, walk in the yard, or go to chapel/mosque etc.

Tl:dr make prison shorter but suck more to prevent criminal U and reduce recidivism

[Aasharu]

I agree whole heartedly with 1, 2, and 3. 5, I agree we need to get rid of the concept of "for profit" prisons; a tax on profits, though, might lead to poor states feeling like they can supplement their tax income with prison taxes. And as for 4 and 6, from what I've seen, read, and seen reported, American prisons are already terribly unpleasant, but the problem is they focus on punishment, not rehabilitation. I feel that making prisons more about training, educating, and rehabilitating would remove most of the problems with our prison system.

[Broomstick]

Well, there's suck and then there is hopeless.

I favor the carrot-and-stick approach. Yes, bare bones accommodations but right conduct gets you privileges. Getting educated gets you, oh, I don't know, X hours of TV/movie viewing for every course successfully completed. If you're already college educated then you tutor other prisoners for education points. Go X amount of time without behavior problems get some other privilege - maybe a better meal plan. If you work you get paid (account system as outlined works for me) but paid minimum wage to reduce the incentive to utilize convict labor over non-convict labor. Screw up you lose privileges back to a certain basic but humane level. Get people in the habit of doing what they're supposed to do.

In other words, rehabilitate people. Even better, give them marketable skills of some sort, but at least try to establish a situation where behaving yourself brings rewards.

Also, less use of solitary confinement. It's brutal and it drives (most) people insane*.

Finally - some actual mental health care and addiction treatment. Because a substantial number of folks wind up in prison because of those two issues and if you don't address them you aren't fixing the source of the problems.


* There are a few instances where convicts prefer nearly complete isolation. Safe to say, there are not normal people. Given the instances I know about are repeat murderers and pretty bent I'd in those particular situations give 'em what they want - they're happier, and society is safer. But very much these folks are the exceptions.

[salm]

I´d just look how countries with high success rates in rehabilitation do it and then copy the system. Scandinavia is supposed to be rather good with this stuff and even though it might be counter intuitive to make prison as "plaesant" as the scandinavians it appears to work.

[cmdrjones]

I´d just look how countries with high success rates in rehabilitation do it and then copy the system. Scandinavia is supposed to be rather good with this stuff and even though it might be counter intuitive to make prison as "plaesant" as the scandinavians it appears to work.

yeah but who ends up in Scandinavian prisons? I'll bet the % of native Scandanavians is higher than the comparable % of Native Born Americans in the USA.

[Ralin]

I´d just look how countries with high success rates in rehabilitation do it and then copy the system. Scandinavia is supposed to be rather good with this stuff and even though it might be counter intuitive to make prison as "plaesant" as the scandinavians it appears to work.

yeah but who ends up in Scandinavian prisons? I'll bet the % of native Scandanavians is higher than the comparable % of Native Born Americans in the USA.

What?

[Adam Reynolds]

I´d just look how countries with high success rates in rehabilitation do it and then copy the system. Scandinavia is supposed to be rather good with this stuff and even though it might be counter intuitive to make prison as "plaesant" as the scandinavians it appears to work.

yeah but who ends up in Scandinavian prisons? I'll bet the % of native Scandanavians is higher than the comparable % of Native Born Americans in the USA.

What?

Just ignore him. He has a habit of popping up in threads with pointless comments like this.

And I presume he is trying to blame the issue on immigrants rather than addressing the real issues.

[cmdrjones]

Just ignore him. He has a habit of popping up in threads with pointless comments like this.

And I presume he is trying to blame the issue on immigrants rather than addressing the real issues.

Why don't you quit crying about your widdle feewings? The real issue is, jackass, if changing the method by which prisons deal with their charges will reduce recidivism rates, NOT 'how cmdrjones comments elsewhere' or whatever. I came in the thread and added specific suggestions that were arrived at Through an Interview with an actual EX-CON that had his life FUCKING RUINED by the US Justice system and you launch into some pointless personal attack? Provide some content to add to the discussion or FUCK OFF!

(that last rant brought to you by vitamin SD... SD.net, where you can use terms like "Fucktard" and get away with it, where in real life you may not want to get into a fistfight everyday. Vitamin SD, get your dose today!)

[Terralthra]

The US prison system is among, if not actually the worst in the industrialized world. Human Rights Watch has condemned the US for its many civil and human rights abuses in the prison system. Also, the US has the highest percentage of its population in prison in the first world, and the highest recidivism rate.

Perhaps these two are related? Making prisons suck worse does not seem to actually help reform criminals much. Indeed, the logic might be summed up as "I don't want to go back to that horrible prison, so I'll murder this policeman trying to arrest me."

[Zeropoint]

yeah but who ends up in Scandinavian prisons? I'll bet the % of native Scandanavians is higher than the comparable % of Native Born Americans in the USA.

I'll second the "what?". It's not clear what you're trying to say here.

[Vejut]

It looks like he's applying the standard "its all about those darn dirty illegal immigrant criminals flooding our borders" argument. Ignore the numbers showing other countries take more per capita than the US.

[cmdrjones]

The US prison system is among, if not actually the worst in the industrialized world. Human Rights Watch has condemned the US for its many civil and human rights abuses in the prison system. Also, the US has the highest percentage of its population in prison in the first world, and the highest recidivism rate.

Perhaps these two are related? Making prisons suck worse does not seem to actually help reform criminals much. Indeed, the logic might be summed up as "I don't want to go back to that horrible prison, so I'll murder this policeman trying to arrest me."

That's a good point, so i'll clarify: 'Making prisons suck' is an oversimplification. I did say that the reforms would include training, and carrot and stick type incentives (as broomstick mentioned) while removing things seen as perks (Color TV, Weight rooms, conjugal visits etc) or limiting them more to those who 'get with the program' I think I should have stated something more like "making prisons suck at creating more career criminals" if people realized that prisons suck at being "criminal U" but ALSO included the message that society gave two shits about you and more importantly wants you back, I think the guy who is about to go back probably WONT shoot the cop. Escpecially if he no longer faces stupid 3 strikes laws.

[cmdrjones]

It looks like he's applying the standard "its all about those darn dirty illegal immigrant criminals flooding our borders" argument. Ignore the numbers showing other countries take more per capita than the US.

Yeah and those other countries con't pay for the defense of the world's shipping lanes either, or is the Croatian navy gonna patrol WESTPAC from now on?
Risks Vs Stakes dude

[salm]

I´d just look how countries with high success rates in rehabilitation do it and then copy the system. Scandinavia is supposed to be rather good with this stuff and even though it might be counter intuitive to make prison as "plaesant" as the scandinavians it appears to work.

yeah but who ends up in Scandinavian prisons? I'll bet the % of native Scandanavians is higher than the comparable % of Native Born Americans in the USA.

I´m not so sure it´s relevant if it is native born Americans or not. Americans tend to be more violent and brutish than Scandinavians, so I don´t think the number of immigrants matters that much.
But then, maybe this doesn´t matter. The point of using a system like in Scandinavia is making your population less violent. The way the USA is doing it appears to be rather counterproductive so I´d just try something else and the Scandinavian way is something else. I know that it´s not politically possible because Americans tend to want a fair share of revenge.

I guess when I said "copying" i wasn´t really precise. You´d need to look at how they do it and then adjust it to your countries idiosyncrasies gut the general gist could be copied. If it wasn´t for blood thirsty voters of course.
We have this type of moron here as well. They usually pop up when some kid gets raped and they demand the reintroduction of the death penalty. Then normal people laugh at them and they go away.

[Batman]

It looks like he's applying the standard "its all about those darn dirty illegal immigrant criminals flooding our borders" argument. Ignore the numbers showing other countries take more per capita than the US.

Yeah and those other countries con't pay for the defense of the world's shipping lanes either, or is the Croatian navy gonna patrol WESTPAC from now on?
Risks Vs Stakes dude

How exactly does what the US Navy does have anything to do with the US' sorry excuse for a justice/penal system?

[salm]

It looks like he's applying the standard "its all about those darn dirty illegal immigrant criminals flooding our borders" argument. Ignore the numbers showing other countries take more per capita than the US.

Yeah and those other countries con't pay for the defense of the world's shipping lanes either, or is the Croatian navy gonna patrol WESTPAC from now on?
Risks Vs Stakes dude

How exactly does what the US Navy does have anything to do with the US' sorry excuse for a justice/penal system?

I think his reasoning is that the US Navy defending shipping lanes buys moral highground which can then be spent on not letting people into the country. It´s like when GM buys CO2 certificates from Tesla.

[cmdrjones]

How exactly does what the US Navy does have anything to do with the US' sorry excuse for a justice/penal system?

I think his reasoning is that the US Navy defending shipping lanes buys moral highground which can then be spent on not letting people into the country. It´s like when GM buys CO2 certificates from Tesla.

not necessarily high ground, just a sense of scale, if croatia diasspeared tomorrow, the world would go on, The USA, the world would go on... directly into a major (possibly nuclear) war to figure out who would be on top.

hence the key phrase: Risks vs Stakes

[Joun_Lord]

I'm not sure how taking away "perks" in prison would make the situation better. The problem with US jails/prison whatever is they are some pretty shitty places already. They are mentally and physically scarring and generally terrible places to be in. That is how they are now. Yet people seem hell-bent on going to them so I don't see how taking away the few things that bring people locked up joy would make them be more likely to not want to go to prison. They already don't want to go to prison.

Very few people get locked up because its comfortable or cushy or because color tv, homeless people getting locked up for food and heat being the obvious exceptions, so taking away luxuries for prisoners does nothing but harden them further, make existing mental conditions worse, and make it harder to reintegrate them in society. This is fine if you run a prison just to punish and to get repeat business but less then ideal if you don't want people to reoffend.

And American prisons aren't filled up with people because we Americans are violent brutish brutes, because immigrants, or because our jails are just so cushy. There is of course difference between Scandinavia is our economy. The Scandies are in a relatively well of country with a healthy social safety net. Amerikkkans not so much atleast in the areas of violent crime. So upscale area of the country with people born with gold spoons up their taints, good education, plenty of money and jobs, and no one doing without will be just as non-violent and civilized as our amazingly amazing civilized Eurocommie betters.

Some inner city shithole awash in cocaine or some rural shithole inundated with meth will not be the same. There is not help, no education, no money, no nothing but desperate people trying to survive by any way possible. They have to be violent and criminal to survive, that is the life they are taught to live and the only one they can do. They are living the life of a 3rd worlder with all the crimes and shittyness that comes with it.

The prisons they go to reflect this. They don't go to some cushy country club with bars on the windows where they get degrees in between tennis and tea time like rich people and Eurocunts have, they go to run down, over crowded, hellish places that don't reform but make people worse because they aren't treated like people.

There are so fucking many reasons prisons in the US suck, just saying "lol Americans suck" or "its the damn dirty immigrants with their skateboarding shoes and pimped out rice mobiles" or whatever dumb reasons people give is just stupid as a many Euros think Americans are. Though to be fair to them we did invent that Duggar and Honey Boo show so I can see where they think we so dumb.

[cmdrjones]

I'm not sure how taking away "perks" in prison would make the situation better. The problem with US jails/prison whatever is they are some pretty shitty places already. They are mentally and physically scarring and generally terrible places to be in. That is how they are now. Yet people seem hell-bent on going to them so I don't see how taking away the few things that bring people locked up joy would make them be more likely to not want to go to prison. They already don't want to go to prison.

Very few people get locked up because its comfortable or cushy or because color tv, homeless people getting locked up for food and heat being the obvious exceptions, so taking away luxuries for prisoners does nothing but harden them further, make existing mental conditions worse, and make it harder to reintegrate them in society. This is fine if you run a prison just to punish and to get repeat business but less then ideal if you don't want people to reoffend.

And American prisons aren't filled up with people because we Americans are violent brutish brutes, because immigrants, or because our jails are just so cushy. There is of course difference between Scandinavia is our economy. The Scandies are in a relatively well of country with a healthy social safety net. Amerikkkans not so much atleast in the areas of violent crime. So upscale area of the country with people born with gold spoons up their taints, good education, plenty of money and jobs, and no one doing without will be just as non-violent and civilized as our amazingly amazing civilized Eurocommie betters.

Some inner city shithole awash in cocaine or some rural shithole inundated with meth will not be the same. There is not help, no education, no money, no nothing but desperate people trying to survive by any way possible. They have to be violent and criminal to survive, that is the life they are taught to live and the only one they can do. They are living the life of a 3rd worlder with all the crimes and shittyness that comes with it.

The prisons they go to reflect this. They don't go to some cushy country club with bars on the windows where they get degrees in between tennis and tea time like rich people and Eurocunts have, they go to run down, over crowded, hellish places that don't reform but make people worse because they aren't treated like people.

There are so fucking many reasons prisons in the US suck, just saying "lol Americans suck" or "its the damn dirty immigrants with their skateboarding shoes and pimped out rice mobiles" or whatever dumb reasons people give is just stupid as a many Euros think Americans are. Though to be fair to them we did invent that Duggar and Honey Boo show so I can see where they think we so dumb.

I am largely in agreement, but, to clarify, I am not suggesting we take away "perks" just for the sake of being an asshole, just that we make most of them contingent on good behavior/reintegration into society. Two additional things though: White collar prisons in wealthy communities should "suck" just like the poor, overcrowded ones and thus we do away with the 'country club' prisons idea entirely and #2 I reiterate that the mandatory sentencing guidelines (3 strikes laws) and death penalties would be thrown out. So, IN ADDITION to 'perks' being lost, the concept integrates reintegration, job/skills training/education into the time spent in prison from day one. For violent offenders (murderers/rapists etc) who would have gotten life and or the death penalty in the old system, they would still perhaps GET life, but they would spend it working for thier victims families/society rather than sitting in a hole and getting prison big.

All of this assumes that there is a society WORTH being reintegrated into of course, though I think these types of reforms would go a long way to creating said society.