No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Remember when a 12 year old boy got shot for playing with a toy gun?

New York times
CLEVELAND — A grand jury declined on Monday to charge a Cleveland patrolman who fatally shot a 12-year-old boy holding a pellet gun, capping more than a year of investigation into a case that added to national outrage over white officers killing African-Americans.

In announcing the decision, Timothy J. McGinty, the Cuyahoga County prosecutor, said he had recommended that the grand jurors not bring charges in the killing of the boy, Tamir Rice, who was playing with the gun outside a recreation center in November 2014.


Mr. McGinty said the fatal encounter had been a tragedy and a “perfect storm of human error, mistakes and miscommunications.” But he said that enhancement of video from the scene had made it “indisputable” that Tamir, who was black, was drawing the pellet gun from his waistband when he was shot, either to hand it over to the officers or to show them that it was not a real firearm. He said that there was no reason for the officers to know that, and that the officer who fired, Timothy Loehmann, had a reason to fear for his life.

The case began when a caller to 911 said a male was pointing a gun at people in a Cleveland park. The caller added that the gun was “probably fake,” and that the person waving it was “probably a juvenile.” But those caveats were not relayed to Officer Loehmann or his partner, Frank Garmback, who was driving the patrol car. Officer Loehmann, who is white, opened fire within seconds of arriving at the park. Officer Garmback was also spared any charges.

The shooting in Cleveland came just two days before a grand jury in Missouri declined to indict a white police officer in Ferguson who fatally shot Michael Brown, an unarmed black 18-year-old. The Ferguson case became one of a series of police killings that drew protests — in New York, Baltimore, North Charleston, S.C., and other cities — by demonstrators denouncing the way the police treat African-Americans.

Though some officers have been charged this year for on-duty killings, in cities including Cincinnati and Baltimore, others have not. Mr. McGinty said that no matter how tragic the circumstances involving Tamir’s death, the law gives the benefit of the doubt to officers who must make split-second decisions.

Tamir’s family and protesters had criticized the approach of the prosecutor throughout the investigation, which took more than 13 months. The Cleveland police initially investigated the case, then the county sheriff’s office conducted its own inquiry. Mr. McGinty’s office released the results of the sheriff’s investigation in June, and months later presented the case to a grand jury.

“It has been clear for months now that Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Timothy McGinty was abusing and manipulating the grand jury process to orchestrate a vote against indictment,” lawyers for Tamir Rice’s family said Monday in a statement. “Even though video shows the police shooting Tamir in less than one second, Prosecutor McGinty hired so-called expert witnesses to try to exonerate the officers and tell the grand jury their conduct was reasonable and justified.”

City and state officials urged calm. In a statement, Gov. John R. Kasich, a Republican presidential candidate, said that he understood “how this decision will leave many people asking themselves if justice was served,” but urged residents not to “give in to anger and frustration and let it divide us.”

A steady wind and cold rain Monday night drove away a small group of demonstrators who had gathered at the park where Tamir was fatally shot. Mementos were left at a makeshift memorial there throughout the day, including dozens of teddy bears, plastic flowers and small wooden crosses. The rain and wind extinguished candles that had been lit in the boy’s memory.

At a news conference after the prosecutor’s announcement, Mayor Frank Jackson expressed condolences to the Rice family and said the city would begin an administrative review of the shooting now that the grand jury’s work was finished. Mr. Jackson said meaningful changes to the Division of Police had been made since Tamir’s death, including efforts to give officers first-aid training and provide basic medical kits in police cars.

“This has caused the city of Cleveland, with the loss of a child at the hands of a police officer, to do a lot of soul searching,” Mr. Jackson said. “And in the midst of that soul searching we have made some changes.”

“All this is designed to better ensure that an incident like this will never happen again,” he added.

Police Chief Calvin Williams said Officers Loehmann and Garmback would remain on restricted duty until the administrative review was completed. He said the review would look at whether department policies were violated during the encounter, including the actions of the call taker and dispatcher, the shooting itself, and the aftermath. “We’ll look at the incident from start to finish,” Chief Williams said, and consider discipline if violations are found.

As with many police killings this year, outrage was sparked by what was caught on camera. Grainy surveillance video, which circulated widely online, showed Officer Garmback pulling the police cruiser within a few feet of Tamir and Officer Loehmann stepping out of the car and almost immediately firing his gun. Tamir died hours later.

Mr. McGinty noted that the officers had never been told that the original caller suggested the gun might be a fake. “Had the officers been aware of these qualifiers, the training officer who was driving might have approached the scene with less urgency,” said Mr. McGinty, who said the officers could not be penalized for what they did not know. “Lives may not have been put at stake.”

Matthew Meyer, an assistant prosecutor, said that it was difficult to tell the difference between the pellet gun and a real one because the orange safety tip was missing, and that the guns otherwise look the same from a distance. Prosecutors also said that Tamir looked large for his age, and that the neighborhood has a history of violence, and that other officers have been killed nearby.

Mr. McGinty said: “The death of Tamir Rice was an absolute tragedy. It was horrible, unfortunate and regrettable. But it was not, by the law that binds us, a crime.”

Mr. McGinty defended his decision to publicly release a series of expert reports he commissioned before the grand jury announcement, saying they made for a transparent process that allowed the public to reach informed conclusions. Those reports found that Officer Loehmann acted reasonably in shooting Tamir, but the Rice family commissioned its own outside reports that reached the opposite conclusion.

Mr. McGinty said he had called Tamir’s mother to tell her of the grand jury’s actions and that it had been a “tough conversation.” He said he “appreciated the sincere emotion and concern of all citizens” but asked the community to “respect the process.” He said Tamir’s family may yet find some redress in civil courts.

Some people, however, were outraged. Representative Marcia Fudge, a Democrat whose district includes part of Cleveland, said Monday that she believed the grand jury process was a “miscarriage of justice” and that Mr. McGinty should step down.

“I didn’t get all of the information from the grand jury. They may have come up with the right decision,” Ms. Fudge said. “But all of the process around it makes all of us question the fairness. This is just outrageous that a case would take that long.”

Neither Officer Garmback nor Officer Loehmann has spoken publicly about the shooting, though both men read statements to grand jurors about their actions that day. Officer Loehmann told the grand jury that he fired out of fear for his safety after Tamir reached into his waistband and grabbed the pellet gun, which he believed to be real.

Tamir’s family has questioned Officer Loehmann’s account, and has sued the city and both officers in federal court.

Since Tamir’s death, questions have been raised about Officer Loehmann’s qualifications and about the Cleveland police’s standards on the use of force. Records show that Officer Loehmann resigned from another Ohio police department after a “dangerous loss of composure” during firearms training. The Cleveland police did not review that department’s personnel file before offering him a job.

For years, the Cleveland police have been criticized for being too aggressive in their use of force, and for broader failures in management, record keeping and training. In May, the city agreed to a sweeping consent decree with the Justice Department that required changes in how officers use and report force, and placed the police under the supervision of an independent monitor.

Mr. McGinty presents evidence in all fatal police encounters to a grand jury, but some activists have questioned the fairness of the process, and have noted that indictments are generally unlikely unless one is sought by a prosecutor.

In the Rice case, family lawyers have said for months that they have little confidence that Mr. McGinty wanted the officers charged. The lawyers have called for a special prosecutor in the case and have asked the Justice Department to investigate.

Justice Department officials said Monday that they would “continue our independent review of this matter, assess all available materials and determine what actions are appropriate, given the strict burdens and requirements imposed by applicable federal civil rights laws.”

Expecting protests in the days ahead, Cleveland officials said they were prepared to allow peaceful demonstrations.

“There have already been plans for a response, both at an immediate level and a long protracted struggle,” said the Rev. Jawanza Colvin, the pastor of a Cleveland church who signed the affidavits this year seeking the officers’ arrests.

But Mr. Colvin said Monday’s outcome had long been anticipated.

“The fact that we are not surprised,” he said, “is in and of itself an indictment of the culture of the criminal justice system.”

Completely expected outcome. After all, it is valid to immediately fire at boys after stepping out of your patrol car if they are black. After all, 12 year olds routinely carry weapons and are the vilest cop killers around imaginable.
Here is the video of the incident.

Complete bullshit.

EDIT: Because I can see the argument that the police could not know it was a toy gun already in the near future, the only reason why the police office even had cause to fear was because he put himself in an escalated position. They should never have driven up so fast. They should never have gotten so close that they felt it was self defence (if we want to be charitable to them. I personally believe that they drove up intended to be as aggressive as they could be).
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by General Zod »

The best part is that Ohio lets citizens open-carry guns. Simply having a gun out wouldn't have even been a problem if he were white.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by trekky0623 »

This was the toy gun. Tamir Rice had removed the orange safety tip from the gun and was pointing it at people in the park. While tragic, I can't help but feel that given the situation and the information available to the police officers, they did the right thing to try and prevent loss of life.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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At the same time, two black cops in another part of the country were charged with murder for a shooting incident that ended in a white man and his son being killed. Of course, in that case it was actually what needed to happen, but the contrast is striking and draws attention to the fact that the so-called US justice system is working exactly as its designers intended, which is protecting the white population from the non-whites.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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trekky0623 wrote:This was the toy gun. Tamir Rice had removed the orange safety tip from the gun and was pointing it at people in the park. While tragic, I can't help but feel that given the situation and the information available to the police officers, they did the right thing to try and prevent loss of life.
Me, in the OP wrote: EDIT: Because I can see the argument that the police could not know it was a toy gun already in the near future, the only reason why the police office even had cause to fear was because he put himself in an escalated position. They should never have driven up so fast. They should never have gotten so close that they felt it was self defence (if we want to be charitable to them. I personally believe that they drove up intended to be as aggressive as they could be).
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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trekky0623 wrote:This was the toy gun. Tamir Rice had removed the orange safety tip from the gun and was pointing it at people in the park. While tragic, I can't help but feel that given the situation and the information available to the police officers, they did the right thing to try and prevent loss of life.
Here's the important question. Did the police actually witness him pointing the toy gun at people? Because if not then they killed him over hearsay.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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trekky0623 wrote:This was the toy gun. Tamir Rice had removed the orange safety tip from the gun and was pointing it at people in the park. While tragic, I can't help but feel that given the situation and the information available to the police officers, they did the right thing to try and prevent loss of life.
Charge in to an immediate close distance with a car, get out of the car and fire less than four seconds later, without any attempts at resolving the incident in a different manner (such as not getting into a dangerous distance immediately on teh first place) and then refuse to give medical attention to the kid you shot. That's some real fucking stellar work there.

Those two "cops" are murderers with badges and nothing more. And incompetent to boot. Regardless of whether the safety tip was removed from the gun.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by trekky0623 »

Edi wrote:
trekky0623 wrote:This was the toy gun. Tamir Rice had removed the orange safety tip from the gun and was pointing it at people in the park. While tragic, I can't help but feel that given the situation and the information available to the police officers, they did the right thing to try and prevent loss of life.
Charge in to an immediate close distance with a car, get out of the car and fire less than four seconds later, without any attempts at resolving the incident in a different manner (such as not getting into a dangerous distance immediately on teh first place) and then refuse to give medical attention to the kid you shot. That's some real fucking stellar work there.

Those two "cops" are murderers with badges and nothing more. And incompetent to boot. Regardless of whether the safety tip was removed from the gun.
If anything, wouldn't this put blame on the driver who pulls up like an idiot and not the rookie who shot him? In any case, the FBI claims that their video analysis showed Tamir was drawing his toy weapon. They fucked up and should probably be fired, but I just can't see them as having done anything criminal.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by trekky0623 »

The main activity I find repulsing is the response by the city prosecutor, who actively sabotaged the Grand Jury process. I don't know if there's a way to start over again, but this entire Grand Jury process is an insult to justice.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Edi wrote:
trekky0623 wrote:This was the toy gun. Tamir Rice had removed the orange safety tip from the gun and was pointing it at people in the park. While tragic, I can't help but feel that given the situation and the information available to the police officers, they did the right thing to try and prevent loss of life.
Charge in to an immediate close distance with a car, get out of the car and fire less than four seconds later, without any attempts at resolving the incident in a different manner (such as not getting into a dangerous distance immediately on teh first place) and then refuse to give medical attention to the kid you shot. That's some real fucking stellar work there.

Those two "cops" are murderers with badges and nothing more. And incompetent to boot. Regardless of whether the safety tip was removed from the gun.
Park car a block away to avoid personal risk. Reported gunman kills five playground children in the time you are deescalating. Cops still get blamed.

If the report had been a guy carrying a gun I agree with you. The report was a guy brandishing and pointing a gun at children. Not the same thing.
Edi wrote:At the same time, two black cops in another part of the country were charged with murder for a shooting incident that ended in a white man and his son being killed. Of course, in that case it was actually what needed to happen, but the contrast is striking and draws attention to the fact that the so-called US justice system is working exactly as its designers intended, which is protecting the white population from the non-whites.
Is this the incident you didn't link to?

http://www.wtam.com/onair/mike-trivison ... r-14104029

Please explain to us why these two cases should be compared to each other regarding the circumstances involved. They involved cops and a shooting? Awesome analysis.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Patroklos wrote:Park car a block away to avoid personal risk. Reported gunman kills five playground children in the time you are deescalating. Cops still get blamed.
A block away? How about not charging right into it? Nobody is fucking saying that they should have stopped and then walked for several minutes. But there was no attempt at deescalation made. Nothing.

I am pretty sure that driving right up within a meter of an armed suspect is also not police procedure.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Not if you are trying to take the attention away from the other children on the playground, AKA targets less deserving of a bullet to the head.

Would you have felt the same way if a cop had the opportunity run straight into Sandy Hook? I know its vogue to just assume the cops had racist motivations, but it seems just as likely to me in this day and age that when a report of a gunmen on a playground is reported that an overreaction (if there was one) is due to preventing something like that.

Again, the report wasn't "guy with gun" it was "guy actively pointing gun at children." Those two reports do not warrant the same response. Even then they didn't just go in guns ablazing, as the FBI has confirmed.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Yeah, that is just bullshit. No report said there was shooting going on.

Are you just unfamiliar with the concept of deescalation?
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Where did I say shooting was going on? The Sandy Hook reference was to if an officer had an opportunity to intervene BEFORE shooting was going on given a similar report. He would be a hero for doing what these two officers did, successful or no.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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From the sound of it, all this could have been avoided by simply ordering him to drop the weapon before taking the shot. When the hell did that stop being standard practice?
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Zaune wrote:From the sound of it, all this could have been avoided by simply ordering him to drop the weapon before taking the shot. When the hell did that stop being standard practice?
That has never been standard practice. The first order would always be to stop the suspect from making any aggressive movements - in this case, to prevent the suspect drawing the firearm. The police's first act would be to tell Tamir to keep his hands away from the gun, not to put the gun in his hands so that he can put it on the ground.

Tamir died because he failed to act with the care we rightfully demand of anyone who carries either a gun or an object deliberately manufactured or modified to look like a gun. If you are carrying a gun or a replica gun and the police tell you to stand still, you need to follow their damn orders. Do not decide that disobeying their direct orders and instead drawing your replica gun to show them it isn't a real gun is a better idea, because drawing something deliberately designed to look like a real gun when you have been told not to is going to get you shot.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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All of you are wrong. You are looking at the incident from the prospective of "public safety" or "preventing crime". That's not the biggest priority in American policing.
Washington Times wrote:“I think officer safety is the number one issue,” (St. Louis Police Chief Sam) Dotson explained to reporters after two of his officers reportedly fired nine rounds into an accused shoplifter who was apparently armed with a knife.
From that perspective, these two officers did everything right.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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trekky0623 wrote:This was the toy gun. Tamir Rice had removed the orange safety tip from the gun and was pointing it at people in the park. While tragic, I can't help but feel that given the situation and the information available to the police officers, they did the right thing to try and prevent loss of life.
Just having a gun isn't reason to be shot, atleast in Murica. Especially when the person with the firearm is in a public area that is frequented by children and possible innocent bystanders, not threatening anyone right that moment, and doesn't have the weapon drawn. That implies they are not an immediate danger. Most likely someone in a public park with a firearm and not killing people is trying to commit suicide or is possibly a child. A person with a lick of common sense would know this.

Frankly the whole "see a gun shoot the fucker" attitude cops have is just disgusting. Cops being such pussies that they have to kill anyone who looks vaguely armed results in a 12 year old being killed for playing with a toy, a kid in his own home being shot for having a Wii-mote, another kid is killed walking home with a plastic AK, and probably much more. Even the wimpy Europeons who are completely terrified of guns because of some probably freudian reason can usually deescalate a situation involving a firearm that doesn't involve shooting someone dead. and no not the fucking retarded as fuck "shoot them in the leg" bullshit.

American cops act more like soldiers in a occupied country rather then police officers. They act like everyone is a potential enemy, think at anytime someone can pull a gun and blast them. Cops do die but at a rate of about 1/10th that of the people they themselves kill. Thats fucking ridiculous.

Now of course a solution to this would be to ban guns. Hard for these big tough men to feel threatened if nobody can defend themselves.......I mean fight back........I mean threaten police lives. Which is an attitude alot of people have, make the public disarm to let police feel more comfortable so they don't kill people.

Or the police could be retrained not to fucking kill thousands of people.

And don't get me wrong, I feel for alot of cops. I don't think most cops are bad, I don't even think most cops want to shoot the people they shoot. But they do, through horrible military style training right alongside their military style "assault weapons", military style uniforms, and actual military surplus equipment and vehicles they kill thousands of innocent people every year. Black, white, male, female, mentally sound, and the mentally loony, all are killed at the hands of cops in preventable situations.

I dunno, I just needed to rant about that. This Tamir Rice shit pisses me right the fuck off. I could have easily been him as a kid considering I was a little shit who loved toy guns. However I was white and lived in a rural area where it ain't that odd to see actual firearms open carried.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Elheru Aran »

Grumman wrote:
Zaune wrote:From the sound of it, all this could have been avoided by simply ordering him to drop the weapon before taking the shot. When the hell did that stop being standard practice?
That has never been standard practice. The first order would always be to stop the suspect from making any aggressive movements - in this case, to prevent the suspect drawing the firearm. The police's first act would be to tell Tamir to keep his hands away from the gun, not to put the gun in his hands so that he can put it on the ground.

Tamir died because he failed to act with the care we rightfully demand of anyone who carries either a gun or an object deliberately manufactured or modified to look like a gun. If you are carrying a gun or a replica gun and the police tell you to stand still, you need to follow their damn orders. Do not decide that disobeying their direct orders and instead drawing your replica gun to show them it isn't a real gun is a better idea, because drawing something deliberately designed to look like a real gun when you have been told not to is going to get you shot.
Except they did not give him any orders whatsoever. They pulled up and dropped him, from all the available evidence.

"Officer safety" is a bullshit argument. It's a dangerous job, expect danger. Yes, a cop might get shot. That's a bad thing. That's why they carry, you know, bulletproof vests and first-aid kits in their vehicles and receive training to deal with such situations. Would it have troubled them to take a minute after they pulled up to holler at the kid to please put it down NOW, and then wait for him to do so. Better for him to get pushed around a bit in getting arrested than, you know, get killed.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Patroklos »

They did not pull up and drop him. They pulled up, Rice pulled out an object specifically designed to look somewhat like a gun that was further modified by Rice to look exactly like a gun after the officers had already been told it was a gun, and then shot him. This is confirmed by the FBI, it is a simple fact you have to accept.

And you can think its BS regarding officer safety and that's fine, but you will have to reconcile yourself to not having any or few police officers. Good luck recruiting when your opening is "your life is worth less than everyone around you, including criminals." Are you going to do it? There is lots of bitching about how the police attract dumbasses or authoritarians or whatever, but I don't see any of you more enlightened individuals signing up to put you body and the well being of your families where your mouth is.

Just like that bullshit "drop your weapon!" crap above lifted straight out of the movies, this whole cops need to "take the first shot" so to speak is equally childish. That't what police sign up for, nor has that ever been the case. Your warped expectations are your own problem.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Elheru Aran »

Guess nobody should sign up for the military either. Oh wait, that's not happening.

Look, the fact of the matter is that policing isn't all sitting around eating donuts in the squad car (jesus fuck have I seen some fat cops in my time, so for some it definitely is that). Shooting people is a *last resort*, or at least it should be, not the first. Certainly not when you're dealing with a goddamn kid. If they're so worried about getting shot at, they shouldn't have taken the job. It's an occupational hazard, same as getting burned is for a firefighter, or needle sticks and gross bodily fluids for a paramedic. Does it mean their life is worth less? No. It just means they choose to take a risk with it, same as anybody does when they get in a fucking car.
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Grumman
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Grumman »

Elheru Aran wrote:Except they did not give him any orders whatsoever. They pulled up and dropped him, from all the available evidence.
Please clarify your position: is your argument that Tamir did literally nothing in between the time that the police showed up and the time they shot him? Or are you arguing that it is irrelevant that the first thing Tamir did when the police showed up is attempt to draw his replica pistol?
Patroklos
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Patroklos »

Elheru Aran wrote:Guess nobody should sign up for the military either. Oh wait, that's not happening.

Look, the fact of the matter is that policing isn't all sitting around eating donuts in the squad car (jesus fuck have I seen some fat cops in my time, so for some it definitely is that). Shooting people is a *last resort*, or at least it should be, not the first. Certainly not when you're dealing with a goddamn kid. If they're so worried about getting shot at, they shouldn't have taken the job. It's an occupational hazard, same as getting burned is for a firefighter, or needle sticks and gross bodily fluids for a paramedic. Does it mean their life is worth less? No. It just means they choose to take a risk with it, same as anybody does when they get in a fucking car.
Do you think the military operates under your retarded risk rules?

As an active duty member of the most powerful one, I can attest that is not the case. Our ROE is FAR less restrictive than any police officer. If you pull what is thought to be a gun in a situation where I have already identified you as a potential threat you are going to get shot by a soldier even faster than a cop. You don't even have to have a gun, your mere presence can let me kill you given the right circumstances.

I see you still want to wallow in denial regarding the facts of this case, as shooting was indeed the last resort given they only did so because they had what they quite reasonably believed was a weapon drawn on them. The grand jury agrees. The FBI agrees.

These people did not choose to take the risk you imagine they do. The risk they take is to drive towards danger when others run away, which is exactly what they did here. Firefighters, for instance, don't have to go into a building to save anyone once they get there. All this talk from you amounting to taking the first shot is a figment of your imagination. So I ask you again, if you don't want these cowards to take the job, who will? Where is this secret pool of think right, zero risk aversion people numbering in the tens of thousands who will seamlessly slip into the role of bullet sponge. You? Surely you are up for the job.
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Napoleon the Clown
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Thanas wrote:Yeah, that is just bullshit. No report said there was shooting going on.

Are you just unfamiliar with the concept of deescalation?
Consider his entire posting history. He almost always supports the right-wing views. Right-wing views tend to view negotiating as weakness. Right-wing views hold that anything other than immediate use of force makes you weak and will cause everyone to walk all over you. If Patroklos wants to prove he supports attempts at peaceful resolution he can point me to an instance of him doing so. I'll concede that he respects attempts at non-violent resolution.

Shooting in public is more dangerous than not shooting in public. If the police are out to reduce harm to civilians, they should try to avoid gunfire happening at all. Police aren't fucking soldiers surrounded by enemy combatants. Tamir Rice wasn't aiming at anybody when the police arrived, there were just reports of that happening. So immediately charging in like they did, weapons at the ready? That's an issue. They could have been physically on top of him before he could do jack shit with a gun. Drawing and aiming takes time. More time than running six feet and tackling someone to the ground.

Look at the comments made by supporters of the shooting. Bullshit like "He should have known better because he looked older than he was." The shooting was unjustified because they could have non-lethally stopped him even if he did have a real gun and intended to kill someone.
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Patroklos
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Patroklos »

Napoleon the Clown wrote: Consider his entire posting history. He almost always supports the right-wing views. Right-wing views tend to view negotiating as weakness. Right-wing views hold that anything other than immediate use of force makes you weak and will cause everyone to walk all over you. If Patroklos wants to prove he supports attempts at peaceful resolution he can point me to an instance of him doing so. I'll concede that he respects attempts at non-violent resolution.
Sorry Clown, that's not how the debate rules on SD work. First you need to support your accusation before I even have to consider responding. So put up, or shut up, and if its shut up provide the required retraction.
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