Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

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Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Broomstick »

Newslink here

Pretty bad, as head-on crashes with trains usually are. One interesting twist is that apparently there are no nearby roads so evacuations are by boat and helicopter. At least nine dead, at least 100 hurt.

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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by SpottedKitty »

Just saw it on the BBC here. It was noted that the trains were on a single track line, and both of them were fitted with a Train Protection System, which should set off loud alarms in the driver's cab if it goes past a red light. No mention if it was the type of system that actiually stops the train.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Lord Revan »

well even if such a system was in place trains don't stop on a dime and there's plenty of mass to cause massive carnage if the trains were moving at any signigant speed.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Jaepheth »

Article says each was going 100KPH (62MPH). I'm shocked only 9 are dead; that's some fantastic engineering there.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Broomstick »

Well, the Germans DO have a reputation for great engineering. I'm certain trains are safer and more "crashworthy" than 100 years ago.

I don't know if any warning to passengers was available - a train crash in my area back in the 1990's had a much lower than expected death toll because the driver, realizing a crash was inevitable, ran through the first two cars and got as many passengers as possible to move towards the rear of the train. Everyone still left in the first car died, those who moved lived. Sometimes an accident can be mitigated even if not avoided.

No doubt the German authorities are investigating what happened.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Lord Revan »

yeah the casualities here are low for this type of crash, looking at the picture it seems the first cars of both trains are more or less just pile of broken metal so it's like that anyone left in those cars are probably not even identifible much less alive.

with those speeds and without braking this could have been a lot worse, granted that's small comfort to the families of those who died.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Marko Dash »

the fact that trains are so hard to stop is probably what saves most people, too much mass to stop suddenly means lower deceleration for the victims.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Thanas »

Not really. What saved most people was that the train was mostly empty, as the school children who usually take the train were not on it due to a holiday, so the potential pool of victims was much lower.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Lord Revan »

Marko Dash wrote:the fact that trains are so hard to stop is probably what saves most people, too much mass to stop suddenly means lower deceleration for the victims.
actually in case like this, a head-on collition with objects of roughly equal size and speed (aka their velocities were roughly of equal magnitute but opposite directions) since both of the trains try "push" in opposite directions with equal force will stop like they hit the proverbial brick wall and all the energy that would normally go into moving the train gets transferred into the cars causing the first cars to more or less fuse into a unified mess of metal, plastic and body parts, it's possible that ones missing aren't "couldn't find a body/person" as much as "couldn't find enough peices to make positive identification".

basically the high mass wouldn't help here as both trains in essense hit an immoveble object put between them (well not literally but it's an effective way to picture the event).
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Zaune »

I'm just making educated guesses here, but if it's a single-track line in a remote area then it's possible there weren't any lineside signals for the Train Protection System to react to. I don't know about Germany, but low-traffic rural lines here in the UK often use a token signalling system: In the days before widespread computers this was a literal steel bar that had to be inserted into a machine in the signal box before the points can be set to admit a train to that part of the line, but in modern systems a virtual token is sent through the in-cab radio.

I don't know if those virtual token systems interact with the TPS at all, but I can definitely think of a couple of ways that bad radio reception and operator negligence could combine to cause an accident.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Broomstick »

Lord Revan wrote:
Marko Dash wrote:the fact that trains are so hard to stop is probably what saves most people, too much mass to stop suddenly means lower deceleration for the victims.
actually in case like this, a head-on collition with objects of roughly equal size and speed (aka their velocities were roughly of equal magnitute but opposite directions) since both of the trains try "push" in opposite directions with equal force will stop like they hit the proverbial brick wall and all the energy that would normally go into moving the train gets transferred into the cars causing the first cars to more or less fuse into a unified mess of metal, plastic and body parts, it's possible that ones missing aren't "couldn't find a body/person" as much as "couldn't find enough peices to make positive identification".
We can make positive identification from a remarkably small scrap of tissue these days... although if all you're working from is, say, a single tooth or similar fragment it can take awhile to make the match. I've read some accounts of modern forensics, such as from a coroner that worked on the remains found in the World Trade Center, that are amazing that way.

But yeah, two trains meeting head on means a whole lot of energy gets set loose and becomes very destructive.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Lord Revan »

Broomstick wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
Marko Dash wrote:the fact that trains are so hard to stop is probably what saves most people, too much mass to stop suddenly means lower deceleration for the victims.
actually in case like this, a head-on collition with objects of roughly equal size and speed (aka their velocities were roughly of equal magnitute but opposite directions) since both of the trains try "push" in opposite directions with equal force will stop like they hit the proverbial brick wall and all the energy that would normally go into moving the train gets transferred into the cars causing the first cars to more or less fuse into a unified mess of metal, plastic and body parts, it's possible that ones missing aren't "couldn't find a body/person" as much as "couldn't find enough peices to make positive identification".
We can make positive identification from a remarkably small scrap of tissue these days... although if all you're working from is, say, a single tooth or similar fragment it can take awhile to make the match. I've read some accounts of modern forensics, such as from a coroner that worked on the remains found in the World Trade Center, that are amazing that way.

But yeah, two trains meeting head on means a whole lot of energy gets set loose and becomes very destructive.
true enough but the less you have to work with the longer it's gonna take to make a postive identification and this accident didn't happen so long ago.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by AMX »

Radio news over here report that a train dispatcher overrid the red signal in order to let one of the trains make up a few minutes of delay.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Lord Revan »

If true I really he gets charged for this, those signals are there for a reason afterall and a few minutes delay is really not that bad compared to a crash
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Soontir C'boath »

The only way I can see this ever occurring is if the dispatcher completely forgot there was another train involved which is a serious loss of situational awareness. There is simply no excuse given it is single track territory and one of the damn trains certainly will have to wait at a siding late or not.

It happens all the time on the Long Island Railroad where a train has to wait in the station or a siding for the other one to show up and free up the track to proceed.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Lord Revan »

I'd say that in Finland the dispatcher would be charged with "kuolemantuottamus" (times the number of deaths obviously) which is essentially a catch all term for deaths that happend due to intentional act but deaths were not the intended result (note that the act doesn't have be a crime, there have been people charged with this due to deaths from overly brutal tackles in Ice Hockey).

I dunno what the German legal systems says about this but I suspect they have something similar.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Zaune »

Nearest translation in US English would be "Involuntary Manslaughter", I believe.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Thanas »

Yeah same in Germany, he most likely will get 5 years for it. He came forward on his own though.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Lord Revan »

Zaune wrote:Nearest translation in US English would be "Involuntary Manslaughter", I believe.
I suppose it would be best translation for the term I used in this case granted "Kuolemantuottamus" also includes cases like a bank robber shooting someone with "Murha" (the finnish word for murder) being reserved for cases where the deaths were the purpose of the crime rather then an unfortunate side effect.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Elheru Aran »

Lord Revan wrote:
Zaune wrote:Nearest translation in US English would be "Involuntary Manslaughter", I believe.
I suppose it would be best translation for the term I used in this case granted "Kuolemantuottamus" also includes cases like a bank robber shooting someone with "Murha" (the finnish word for murder) being reserved for cases where the deaths were the purpose of the crime rather then an unfortunate side effect.
I suspect that's more of a quirk of Finnish law than anything else. I *think* (I won't stand on this and welcome correction if I'm wrong) that in the US it would come under 'second degree murder', where you kill someone without that being the primary intent. Of course there may be local differences in the law, given how each state treats these things differently to some degree...
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Borgholio »

I don't think it would be second degree murder, because that requires the accused to actually WANT to hurt people just not intend to kill them. It would probably be a manslaughter charge.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

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How the fuck are you debating finnish law when I already stated the relevant punishment he will face?
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Borgholio »

We're not. Elheru was comparing it to what it would be in the US and I was responding to that.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Thanas »

Ah. My apologies then.
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Re: Head On Train Crash in Bavaria

Post by Broomstick »

I think the Finnish term is similar to the American "manslaughter", which means your actions caused a death without intent to cause death on your part. Murder and homicide imply intent to kill, but as noted precise legal definitions will vary depending on where in the Anglosphere you find yourself.

It used to be that, in the bank robbery example given, the robber who unintentionally caused the death of a bystander might have been charged with manslaughter but in recent decades US law changed so that any death an accused caused while committing a felony is usually charged as murder regardless of intent.

In train crashes in my region of the US where something similar occurred, that is, someone ignored or over-rode a signal or other safety device, the charge has usually been manslaughter. When the person in question survived at all.

Did the train drivers in this accident survive or not? I don't recall hearing either way.
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