The collapse of the Mosul dam may be imminent.

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The collapse of the Mosul dam may be imminent.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

And it could kill more than one million people.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/m ... -1m-people
Iraqi engineers involved in building the Mosul dam 30 years ago have warned that the risk of its imminent collapse and the consequent death toll could be even worse than reported.

They pointed out that pressure on the dam’s compromised structure was building up rapidly as winter snows melted and more water flowed into the reservoir, bringing it up to its maximum capacity, while the sluice gates normally used to relieve that pressure were jammed shut.

The Iraqi engineers also said the failure to replace machinery or assemble a full workforce more than a year after Islamic State temporarily held the dam means that the chasms in the porous rock under the dam were getting bigger and more dangerous every day. A contract with an Italian construction firm for carrying out urgent repairs has yet to be signed, but behind-the-scenes negotiations with Baghdad continue.


Iraqi PM and US issue warnings over threat of Mosul dam collapse
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The engineers warned that potential loss of life from a sudden catastrophic collapse of the Mosul dam could be even greater than the 500,000 officially estimated, as they said many people could die in the resulting mass panic, with a 20-metre-high flood wave hitting the city of Mosul and then rolling on down the Tigris valley through Tikrit and Samarra to Baghdad.

One of the Iraqi engineers, now living in Europe, described as “ridiculous” the Iraqi government’s emergency policy of telling local people to move 6km (3.5 miles) from the river banks.

Nasrat Adamo, the dam’s former chief engineer who spent most of his professional career shoring it up in the face of fundamental flaws in its construction, said that the structure would only survive with round-the-clock work with teams filling in holes in the porous bedrock under the structure, a process known as grouting. But that level of maintenance, dating back to just after the dam’s construction in 1984, evaporated after the Isis occupation.

“We used to have 300 people working 24 hours in three shifts but very few of these workers have come back. There are perhaps 30 people there now,” Adamo said in a telephone interview from Sweden, where he works as a consultant.

“The machines for grouting have been looted. There is no cement supply. They can do nothing. It is going from bad to worse, and it is urgent. All we can do is hold our hearts.”

At the same time as the bedrock is getting weaker and more porous, the water pressure on the dam is building as spring meltwater flows into the reservoir behind it. Giant gates that would normally be used to ease the pressure by allowing water to run through are stuck.


“One of them is jammed, and when one of them is closed the other one has to be closed. They must work together,” Adamo said. “Otherwise, you get asymmetric flow and that speeds up the erosion.”

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Nadhir al-Ansari, another Iraqi engineer from when the dam was built, also voiced concern about the rising waters in the reservoir.

“The fact that the bottom outlets are jammed is the thing that really worries us,” said Ansari, now an engineering professor at the Luleå University of Technology in Sweden. “In April and May, there will be a lot more snow melting and it will bring plenty of water into the reservoir. The water level is now 308 metres but it will go up to over 330 metres. And the dam is not as before. The caverns underneath have increased. I don’t think the dam will withstand that pressure.

“If the dam fails, the water will arrive in Mosul in four hours. It will arrive in Baghdad in 45 hours. Some people say there could be half a million people killed, some say a million. I imagine it will be more in the absence of a good evacuation plan.”

He said the government policy response, calling on the local population to move at least 6km from the river Tigris, was “ridiculous”. The US embassy in Baghdad has urged American citizens to leave the area.

“What are all these people, millions of people, supposed to do when they get 6km away? There is no support for them there. Nothing to help them live.”

The Mosul dam was first conceived in the 1950s, but its construction was postponed because of the problematic geology of that section of the Tigris, where much of the bedrock is water-soluble. It was finally built by Saddam Hussein’s regime and seen at the time as a prestige project. At the time, Ansari was a scientific consultant at the irrigation ministry.

Nobody knows when it will fail. It could be a year from now. It could be tomorrow.
Nasrat Adamo, the dam's former chief engineer
“I went to visit the site and saw what kind of stone there was there. A lot of gypsum and anhydrite, which are very soluble. I was really concerned; I told the director general. He said: ‘Don’t worry. This is all being taken care of.’”

In the preceding years, successive foreign consultants had pointed out the weaknesses in the rock formations but all assured the Iraqi government the problem could be solved by grouting. The decision to go ahead was pushed through by one of the regime’s vice-presidents, Taha Yassin Ramadan.

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“Ramadan was very keen to have the dam,” Ansari said. “He wanted to show Saddam he was doing something brilliant, and he came from Mosul, so he wanted to do something that brought jobs to Mosul. This sped up the decision.”

The dam was designed by a Swiss firm of consultants and built by a German-Italian consortium in 1984. Water began seeping through in 1986, when it became apparent that the geological issues were worse than the consultants had predicted. From then on it required constant maintenance to fill the caverns being hollowed out by water running through the soluble bedrock. A total of 95,000 tonnes of grout of different types were used over the dam’s lifetime.

“All you are doing with grouting is prolonging the life of the dam. There is no permanent solution except building another dam,” Ansari said. A second structure, the Badush dam, was started 20km downstream, to prevent a catastrophe in the event of the Mosul dam’s failure. But work on Badush halted in the 1990s because of the pressure of sanctions, leaving it only 40% complete.

An international conference has been announced in Rome in April to discuss ways of preventing a disaster, but by then it could already be too late.

“Nobody knows when it will fail,” Adamo said. “It could be a year from now. It could be tomorrow.”
And of course, fuck all is being done about it except to tell poor people to leave their homes.

I can't say how sorry I am for the people of Iraq.
Last edited by LadyTevar on 2016-03-04 08:58pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by Honorius »

They had over a year to secure and fix it and they did nothing...

Well according to some projections the Flood will go all the way to Baghdad and inundate it under 4m of water and may take months for the water to recede. That will absolutely ruin Iraqi Agriculture and Abadi has enough political problems against a resurgent Maliki who has been undermining him at every turn and trying to get back into power.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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Ruin Iraqi agriculture?

More like ruin Iraq. 500,000 to 1,000,000 dead, probably an equal or greater number displaced, cities destroyed... like the Middle East needs more disasters, right?

If that happens the Iraqi refugees fleeing to Europe will rival the Syrians in number.

Not a matter of "if" but "when".

Mosul will die. Cities further downstream might be able to evacuate some people, but even a day or two will not be sufficient to completely evacuate any major city but it will be sufficient time to generate the sort of panic that leads to carnage.

Really, I'm sad and despairing in advance on this.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Da'esh couldn't possibly care less if most of Iraq gets flooded out, of course. Iraq was unable to stop Da'esh from taking the dam, and unable to retake the dam.

This sort of thing is one of many reasons why you have to try seriously to prosecute wars, and why losing can be disastrous. Critical infrastructure being destroyed in war is almost a routine thing; this is an unusually deadly example.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by K. A. Pital »

I think ISIL may even benefit from such an event. Horrible, I know.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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As ISIL thrives on chaos I expect they will find a way to benefit from such a disaster.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by Grumman »

Do they thrive on having tens of thousands of their own soldiers drown if Mosul is wiped out? I doubt that.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by Zaune »

Grumman wrote:Do they thrive on having tens of thousands of their own soldiers drown if Mosul is wiped out? I doubt that.
They can always claim the CIA sent a drone to blow the dam up.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by Broomstick »

I'm sure they could spin such a disaster into a recruitment drive.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by K. A. Pital »

Grumman wrote:Do they thrive on having tens of thousands of their own soldiers drown if Mosul is wiped out? I doubt that.
I think they thrive on suffering just as any fanatical religious cult. Poverty and suffering are essential for their continued existence.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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Broomstick wrote:Ruin Iraqi agriculture?

More like ruin Iraq. 500,000 to 1,000,000 dead, probably an equal or greater number displaced, cities destroyed... like the Middle East needs more disasters, right?

If that happens the Iraqi refugees fleeing to Europe will rival the Syrians in number.

Not a matter of "if" but "when".

Mosul will die. Cities further downstream might be able to evacuate some people, but even a day or two will not be sufficient to completely evacuate any major city but it will be sufficient time to generate the sort of panic that leads to carnage.

Really, I'm sad and despairing in advance on this.
There is a regulatory dam just downstream that will buy an hour and though its incomplete, the Badush Dam will buy about 20 minutes. In addition, before the Dam breaks their will be visible cracks for about two to three and a half hours before it gives way. In the worse case scenario I seen in a paper study released in 2009, it will take roughly five hours for Mosul to flood and up to 54% of the city will flood.

Now that's bad, but there is enough warning for people to evacuate and there is enough lead time for citizens of Mosul to relocate now out of the main flood area of the city.

My main beef is KDP has held the Dam for over a year and only now along with Abadi are saying oh shit... WTF were they doing?
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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I wonder what could be done if anything to avert this crisis. The damn dam is in an area that is filled with extremely hostile militants. So local workers and foreign agencies aren't going to be eager to go in as it would be just short of suicide. Even if Mosul is retaken in the near future by some miracle combined with the west deciding another ME adventure is a good idea, rebuilding the dam will be hard for the cash strapped and no doubt expert strapped nation. The article makes mention of and the wiki article expands on the fact that right now very few workers are there from lack of site security and lack of pay.

If they can't afford to pay workers there is very little chance of them paying the 2 billion to the company that may or may not be contracted to fix the dam or the 4 billion the US Army Engineers estimated would be required to fix the dam completely.

Even just evacuating the area would be a monumental task because of the sheer amount of people involved and the dangers posed by ISIS militants. Even if they could scrap up enough buses and cars and bicycles to evac all the people and could successfully organize it despite the demonstrated incompetence of large scale Iraqi efforts and the threats that would be faced, where would the people be able to even go? Other parts of Iraq? Probably not as they probably don't have the capacity. Europe? Look at all the problems that Syrian refugees are having be accepted, there would probably be riots in some areas if they had to accept a million plus Iraqis. The same problems arise sending them to America, alot of people are not to keen on letting in even small numbers of Muslim refugees and would certainly not be cool with thousands or millions.

I think its not a question of if this tragedy will happen but when because I see now way to avoid it. And that fucking sucks so goddamn bad. The Iraqi people have been getting fucked over so bad for decades and now they got a practically biblical flood to look forward to.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by Tribble »

Is there any way to safely drain the reservoir before the dam breaks? What would happen if they managed to get both floodgates to work again and keep them open? Could they excavate a new path for some of the water to flow, so that it reduces pressure on the dam?
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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Heavy construction machinery is also rare in that area considering the coalition made an effort to bomb them (and rightly so) because ISIS decided to use it to crush historical sites.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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K. A. Pital wrote:
Grumman wrote:Do they thrive on having tens of thousands of their own soldiers drown if Mosul is wiped out? I doubt that.
I think they thrive on suffering just as any fanatical religious cult. Poverty and suffering are essential for their continued existence.
As a recruiting base, sure. But if those recruits look at your "worldwide caliphate" and see it collapsing around your ears, that's going to hurt your credibility with both the true believers who support your theocratic dictatorship for its own sake and the sickos who just want a sex slave and a share of the spoils of war.

Mosul is the largest city under ISIL rule. Losing it is not something I believe they can twist in their favour.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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Thanas wrote:Heavy construction machinery is also rare in that area considering the coalition made an effort to bomb them (and rightly so) because ISIS decided to use it to crush historical sites.
:wtf:

You care more about ruins than peoples lives. Fuck the ruins, they aren't worth one penny over someone's life. When you personally go there and fight for those ruins like other Iraqi and Syrian Archaeologists have then you can bitch about the ruins, you at least would have the right to do so. Otherwise STFU over those ruins.

If one person dies because ruins were prioritized over a Dam that provides jobs, electricity, and water to millions of people, that is one more person you are saying didn't deserve to live because a ruin is more important. If the worst case happens then this is 1.5 million :finger: in advance asshole for the people who I value more than your stupid ruins you prattle about.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by madd0ct0r »

Guys. High pressure grout pumps and bulldozers are not equivalent.
The machinery could be there in two days under normal circumstances.. The hundreds of tonnes of cement would be harder to ensure a continuall supply for years but enough money could do it.

But that's to maintain the status quo while the dam is decommissioned. Engineering chat says one of the two drain gates is jammed. If they run the one without the other apparently it makes the erosion worse, presumably of clay silt at base of resivoir exposing more gypsum
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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Honorius wrote:
Thanas wrote:Heavy construction machinery is also rare in that area considering the coalition made an effort to bomb them (and rightly so) because ISIS decided to use it to crush historical sites.
:wtf:

You care more about ruins than peoples lives. Fuck the ruins, they aren't worth one penny over someone's life. When you personally go there and fight for those ruins like other Iraqi and Syrian Archaeologists have then you can bitch about the ruins, you at least would have the right to do so. Otherwise STFU over those ruins.

If one person dies because ruins were prioritized over a Dam that provides jobs, electricity, and water to millions of people, that is one more person you are saying didn't deserve to live because a ruin is more important. If the worst case happens then this is 1.5 million :finger: in advance asshole for the people who I value more than your stupid ruins you prattle about.

:wtf:

Care to point out how any of your insane rant has a basic in my post, which merely said that the coalition was right to bomb heavy machinery used for smashing up ruins? How the fuck do you even get "Thanas wants 1.5 million people to die" from that?
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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Joun_Lord wrote:I wonder what could be done if anything to avert this crisis.
I fear the answer is “nothing”.
Joun_Lord wrote:Even just evacuating the area would be a monumental task because of the sheer amount of people involved and the dangers posed by ISIS militants. Even if they could scrap up enough buses and cars and bicycles to evac all the people and could successfully organize it despite the demonstrated incompetence of large scale Iraqi efforts and the threats that would be faced, where would the people be able to even go?
Honorius wrote:[There is a regulatory dam just downstream that will buy an hour and though its incomplete, the Badush Dam will buy about 20 minutes. In addition, before the Dam breaks their will be visible cracks for about two to three and a half hours before it gives way. In the worse case scenario I seen in a paper study released in 2009, it will take roughly five hours for Mosul to flood and up to 54% of the city will flood.

Now that's bad, but there is enough warning for people to evacuate and there is enough lead time for citizens of Mosul to relocate now out of the main flood area of the city.
The historical records on evacuating cities is dismal.

Let's do a little comparison – New Orleans, Louisiana, USA and Mosul, Iraq.

New Orleans is about half the population of Mosul. They knew the exact day and hour that Hurricane Katrina would hit the city. Evacuation started 50 hours before the storm's landfall. In a nation that was at peace, in the world's wealthiest society with ample resources, tens of thousands of people were left in the city, which as we all know flooded.

Now Mosul – twice as many people. No one knows exactly when the disaster is going to hit, which makes it harder to motivate people to move out of the way. The area is economically devastated, outside help prior to the disaster will be meager to non-existent, and the region on a war footing. Anyone left in Mosul in the flood areas will die, there will be no “shelters of last resort” for those who either can not or will not leave. Your description gives maybe 3.5 to 5 hours of warning of imminent disaster. You can not evacuate a city of 600,000+ in 5 hours, much less 3.5. Casualties will be in the high tens of thousands at best, more likely into the six digits.

It's not going to look like Hurricane Katrina, it will look like the Boxing Day Tsunami as far as death tolls go (actually, will probably exceed that death toll and not over an extensive region of several nations but in just one city), and that's just one city in the path of the water. There are, as we know, several more.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Evacuating the city starting now might at least be possible... though obviously it wouldn't catch everyone.

Thing is, evacuating Mosul and caring for its refugees in an organized fashion is probably beyond the capacity of the Iraqi government. If they were good enough at organization to accomplish that in a month or two, they'd probably already have driven Da'esh away from the dam by armed force in any event.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

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How could the Iraqi government evacuate Mosul if they are not holding it?
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by Broomstick »

Answer: they can't.

The only government there right now is ISIL. Would ISIL evacuate Mosul, or trust Allah not to smite them with water? Religion aside, would ISIL evacuate Mosul? As soon as they did so, assuming the Great Flood hasn't happened yet, the Iraqis would just take it over. No, ISIL will not evacuate, or at least not until it is far too late.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by Balrog »

Thanas wrote:How could the Iraqi government evacuate Mosul if they are not holding it?
I could very well imagine some very cynical/stupid/etc. gov't officials deciding that letting Mosul flood and "wash away" all the evil Sunnis ISIL fighters controlling it is fine and dandy, since they will be the worst hit while Baghdad will have much more warning to allow ample time for these same officials the general public to evacuate in an orderly manner.

A very short-sighted and stupid plan, but not inconceivable IMO.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Balrog wrote:
Thanas wrote:How could the Iraqi government evacuate Mosul if they are not holding it?
I could very well imagine some very cynical/stupid/etc. gov't officials deciding that letting Mosul flood and "wash away" all the evil Sunnis ISIL fighters controlling it is fine and dandy, since they will be the worst hit while Baghdad will have much more warning to allow ample time for these same officials the general public to evacuate in an orderly manner.

A very short-sighted and stupid plan, but not inconceivable IMO.
Stupid and evil. And hard for me to buy, though I suppose its not impossible.

Leaving aside the utter destruction at the time, I doubt even the Iraqi government is stupid enough to think Baghdad is "acceptable losses." And then you add in the ensuing economic damage to a country that's already a ruin, and the additional refugees...

Nobody would benefit from this, except, as noted elsewhere in this thread, maybe IS and their like.
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Re: The collapse of the Mosul damn may be imminent.

Post by jwl »

Thanas wrote:Heavy construction machinery is also rare in that area considering the coalition made an effort to bomb them (and rightly so) because ISIS decided to use it to crush historical sites.
If that is the case, then in hindsight, they weren't "rightly so" to bomb the equipment. The fact it might be needed would have been difficult to foresee, however.
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