About half of Israels Jews support expelling arabs

[Darth Yan]

http://www.newsweek.com/almost-half-isr ... oll-435004

It's like Israel's getting more bigoted in recent years

[Ace Pace]

It's almost as if two groups of people who were fighting for decades would naturally begin to hate each other more and more. What a surprise.

No one is surprised, this article (hebrew) lays out the other side. The hatred is well embedded in both sides.

This is just one of the reasons why there is currently no independent way out of the current IvP clusterfuck.

[Darth Yan]

I have seen even pro zionist people hate netenyahu. Part of the problem is that things like the UN report saying Gaza will be uninhabitable by 2020. Combine that with "Protective Edge" and it gives the impression Israel wants genocide

[Flagg]

Well, Israel's military (and Israeli's to some extent) refer to the every few years culling of the Palestinian population as "mowing the lawn" so I hardly see this as surprising.

The OP, not the genocide thing, though I don't know that I disagree with that statement, I just won't go that far. Yet.

[Grumman]

I have seen even pro zionist people hate netenyahu. Part of the problem is that things like the UN report saying Gaza will be uninhabitable by 2020. Combine that with "Protective Edge" and it gives the impression Israel wants genocide

The Palestinians chose this. They could have accepted Israel's unilateral act of good faith in evicting all Israelis from the Gaza Strip and ending the occupation, but they chose to squander this opportunity to prove that a similar withdrawal from the West Bank would end the fighting. Everything that they have suffered since then is because of their own stupidity.

[The Romulan Republic]

Are you actually arguing that Palestinians deserve to be exterminated due to some sort of collective guilt (remember, not all Palestinians engaged in the acts you refer to) because their leadership "squandered" a chance for peace?

[Honorius]

Are you actually arguing that Palestinians deserve to be exterminated due to some sort of collective guilt (remember, not all Palestinians engaged in the acts you refer to) because their leadership "squandered" a chance for peace?

You as well as I likely already know his answer to that.

The whole IvP shitfest is a cesspool. God forbid you say anything wrong about any side. My stance is cut off all funding and aide to Israel till it adopts a Constitution that clearly spells out human rights, makes all Palestinians, even the refugees, citizens and hold immediate elections without pre-conditions and a blanket pardon to all factions in the dispute, including removing Palestinians off terror lists, followed by a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Will never happen, but I can dream.

[Iroscato]

I'm honestly surprised it's only about half. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

[The Romulan Republic]

Are you actually arguing that Palestinians deserve to be exterminated due to some sort of collective guilt (remember, not all Palestinians engaged in the acts you refer to) because their leadership "squandered" a chance for peace?

You as well as I likely already know his answer to that.

I'd like to think no one would hold such a position, much less openly advocate it here, but it does kind of read that way given the context.

Of course, I'd also expect most people to deny it, regardless of what they actually think.

The whole IvP shitfest is a cesspool. God forbid you say anything wrong about any side. My stance is cut off all funding and aide to Israel till it adopts a Constitution that clearly spells out human rights, makes all Palestinians, even the refugees, citizens and hold immediate elections without pre-conditions and a blanket pardon to all factions in the dispute, including removing Palestinians off terror lists, followed by a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

I actually mostly agree with this, except for the blanket pardons. Well, at least in theory. In practice, it might be a compromise both sides would demand.

Will never happen, but I can dream.

Eh. Doesn't seem likely now, but honestly, stranger things have happened. I try to stay optimistic. Their's enough cynicism in the world.

You would need a major shift in American attitudes towards Israel though.

[Edi]

I have seen even pro zionist people hate netenyahu. Part of the problem is that things like the UN report saying Gaza will be uninhabitable by 2020. Combine that with "Protective Edge" and it gives the impression Israel wants genocide

The Palestinians chose this. They could have accepted Israel's unilateral act of good faith in evicting all Israelis from the Gaza Strip and ending the occupation, but they chose to squander this opportunity to prove that a similar withdrawal from the West Bank would end the fighting. Everything that they have suffered since then is because of their own stupidity.

If you actually bothered to find out anything resembling actual facts about that situation, you wouldn't be spouting bullshit like that. Gaza is no less an open air prison camp for that, since Israel controls all aspects of who and what goes in there, when and how and tends to use massive collective punishment at the drop of a hat.

[Flagg]

I just love the justification most pro-Israel Americans give for our almost unquestioning support for them, namely that "they are the only democracy in the region". I don't know how a country can be both a democracy and a "<insert religion/race/ethnicity/etc here> State". That's without even getting into the nitty gritty issues of the occupation, blockaded areas, terrorism, and other assorted shit.

[AniThyng]

Why not? Many plural states are authoritarian, and no where does the definition of democracy preclude a state declaring itself to be a nationalist state if its electorate approves

[Flagg]

Why not? Many plural states are authoritarian, and no where does the definition of democracy preclude a state declaring itself to be a nationalist state if its electorate approves

Because they are clearly differentiating it from say, Iran which is also a "democracy". It's implication is that it's a "free country", which it is, if you're a Jew. Because all animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.

[Ace Pace]

Well, Israel's military (and Israeli's to some extent) refer to the every few years culling of the Palestinian population as "mowing the lawn" so I hardly see this as surprising.

The OP, not the genocide thing, though I don't know that I disagree with that statement, I just won't go that far. Yet.

I'll nitpick this, because this gets quoted way out of context.

So a bit of a more aware perspective. What the IDF refers to as "mowing the lawn" is the "every few years" combat round of destroying Hamas missile warehouses, killing senior commanders and destroying tunnels. All of which get replaced within a year, but their quality is constantly shifting and preventing a Hezbullah situation from being created from on the south front.

[Tribble]

Are you actually arguing that Palestinians deserve to be exterminated due to some sort of collective guilt (remember, not all Palestinians engaged in the acts you refer to) because their leadership "squandered" a chance for peace?

You as well as I likely already know his answer to that.

The whole IvP shitfest is a cesspool. God forbid you say anything wrong about any side. My stance is cut off all funding and aide to Israel till it adopts a Constitution that clearly spells out human rights, makes all Palestinians, even the refugees, citizens and hold immediate elections without pre-conditions and a blanket pardon to all factions in the dispute, including removing Palestinians off terror lists, followed by a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Will never happen, but I can dream.

It would also be nice if the Palestinians stopped supporting guerilla warfare. And groups like Hamas, which not only call for the total destruction of Israel via Jihad, but have also stated that any agreement with Israel would merely be used as a stepping stone to continue further attacks down the road. They are not exactly innocent here either.

IMO both sides behaviour is pretty abhorrent.

[Honorius]

It would also be nice if the Palestinians stopped supporting guerilla warfare. And groups like Hamas, which not only call for the total destruction of Israel via Jihad, but have also stated that any agreement with Israel would merely be used as a stepping stone to continue further attacks down the road. They are not exactly innocent here either.

IMO both sides behaviour is pretty abhorrent.

The Palestinians won't quit as the Israelis have shown repeatably they won't respect their elections or deals.

Israel refuses to abide by the Oslo Accords giving the Palestinians the right to fish in international waters and to farm, going out of its way to shoot at Fishing Boats and spraying Palestinian Crops with herbicides to kill them if not shooting farmers and straight out destroying their farms.

Hamas won the 2006 election and Israel helped Fatah to launch a coup that failed miserably.

Hamas agreed to a new deal with Fatah, Israel using false evidence accused them of killing teens and turkey shot Gaza Civilians while Hamas restricted itself to Military Targets despite having numerous chances to raid civilian settlements, choosing instead to hit Israeli Military Outposts.

So you can see why Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, its genocidal, either it goes or the Palestinian people die. There is a difference between State and People. The State of Israel in its current form as a Secular Theocracy has to be destroyed for there to be peace and replaced by a new State that is a Democratic Republic with a strong Constitution that protects Human Rights.

Never going to happen in a way that minimizes deaths. Sad as it is to say that. "Sigh"

[Zwinmar]

They are about a half step away from repeating Hitler's and Stalin's genocide only this time they will be doing it to Palestinians. A people who are really their genetic siblings. I wouldn't be surprised if they have already opened up their own versions of Auschwitz and Treblinka.

[Edi]

Anyone who thinks Israel is in any way interested in actual peace is deluding themselves. There is a lot of talk about how the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel, but those same people never mention that the Likud party charter calls for full scale annexation of all occupied territories and IIRC expelling all Arabs from there.

In 1993 there were 250,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Now there are 650,000. No such inconvenient facts or anything else that the Zionist government in Jerusalem dislikes gets any play in American media. The constant harassment of Palestinians, the completely arbitrary oppression, displacement, imprisonment and even murder of Palestinians committed with impunity by settlers and Israeli soldiers alike, none of that is ever mentioned. And then there is all the outrage and anger when some of them lash out.

Netanyahoo, Lebensraum and their ilk will, if they get to have their way, ethnically cleanse Israel until there are only Jews left, though on what time scale, is still open to question.

[Flagg]

Well, Israel's military (and Israeli's to some extent) refer to the every few years culling of the Palestinian population as "mowing the lawn" so I hardly see this as surprising.

The OP, not the genocide thing, though I don't know that I disagree with that statement, I just won't go that far. Yet.

I'll nitpick this, because this gets quoted way out of context.

So a bit of a more aware perspective. What the IDF refers to as "mowing the lawn" is the "every few years" combat round of destroying Hamas missile warehouses, killing senior commanders and destroying tunnels. All of which get replaced within a year, but their quality is constantly shifting and preventing a Hezbullah situation from being created from on the south front.

Yeah, they do all that you said and take no real precautions to avoid killing Arab civilians because they're not like, people or anything. The only difference between the Arabs and the Jews is military hardware.

[Flagg]

Anyone who thinks Israel is in any way interested in actual peace is deluding themselves. There is a lot of talk about how the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel, but those same people never mention that the Likud party charter calls for full scale annexation of all occupied territories and IIRC expelling all Arabs from there.

In 1993 there were 250,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Now there are 650,000. No such inconvenient facts or anything else that the Zionist government in Jerusalem dislikes gets any play in American media. The constant harassment of Palestinians, the completely arbitrary oppression, displacement, imprisonment and even murder of Palestinians committed with impunity by settlers and Israeli soldiers alike, none of that is ever mentioned. And then there is all the outrage and anger when some of them lash out.

Netanyahoo, Lebensraum and their ilk will, if they get to have their way, ethnically cleanse Israel until there are only Jews left, though on what time scale, is still open to question.

I remember that summer when Israel used 3 kidnapped soldiers as an excuse to pretty much bomb Lebenon back into the 19th century and the US media treated it like some kind of measured response. I also recall saying that we changed the wrong regime in 2003 when that was happening on a defunct scifi board that's probably emptier than the owner of said boards head was, but I was all but accused of holocaust denial. The charge of anti-Semitism came without question, which is always funny as hell since Palestinians are Semitic.

[Tribble]

The Palestinians won't quit as the Israelis have shown repeatably they won't respect their elections or deals.

Israel refuses to abide by the Oslo Accords giving the Palestinians the right to fish in international waters and to farm, going out of its way to shoot at Fishing Boats and spraying Palestinian Crops with herbicides to kill them if not shooting farmers and straight out destroying their farms.

Hamas won the 2006 election and Israel helped Fatah to launch a coup that failed miserably.

Hamas agreed to a new deal with Fatah, Israel using false evidence accused them of killing teens and turkey shot Gaza Civilians while Hamas restricted itself to Military Targets despite having numerous chances to raid civilian settlements, choosing instead to hit Israeli Military Outposts.

So you can see why Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, its genocidal, either it goes or the Palestinian people die. There is a difference between State and People. The State of Israel in its current form as a Secular Theocracy has to be destroyed for there to be peace and replaced by a new State that is a Democratic Republic with a strong Constitution that protects Human Rights.

Never going to happen in a way that minimizes deaths. Sad as it is to say that. "Sigh"

Are you actually surprised that when the Palestinians elected a government who called for the total destruction of Israel via Jihad the Israel government decided not to respect the election results? Especially when said government tries its best to carry out said Jihad via any means available to it (including using civilian areas for its rocket bases and encouraging civilians to use themselves as human shields at said bases?) And when said government admits that all treaties negotiated with it are essentially null and void since not only is negotiation impossible le given their charter, but their leaders have stated that the negotiations are only meant to be temporary ploys to further their advance?

For that matter, does it come as any surprise that the Palestine's refuse to negotiate or lay down their arms given the way the Israeli government treats them? Are Israelis surpsied that when they constantly plow down other people's homes for Lebensraum and treat them like shit, that the locals may fight back? By any means necessary, given the fact that they can't match Israel conventionally?

Israel and Palestine in their current forms have to go.

They are about a half step away from repeating Hitler's and Stalin's genocide only this time they will be doing it to Palestinians. A people who are really their genetic siblings. I wouldn't be surprised if they have already opened up their own versions of Auschwitz and Treblinka.

I will call bullshit on that, for the simple reason that if the Israeli government really wanted the Palestinians dead, they would be dead already. Israel has more than enough weapons (conventional, nuclear, and likely biological and chemical) to wipe out in the Middle East, let alone Palestine. And given the current state of affairs, if they chose to do so I doubt other governments could (or would) stop them.

No, Israel likes being the USA of the Middle-East - a big bully which likes to attack others and treat them like shit to show them whose boss. There's no fun in it if everyone's dead.

Anyone who thinks Israel is in any way interested in actual peace is deluding themselves. There is a lot of talk about how the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel, but those same people never mention that the Likud party charter calls for full scale annexation of all occupied territories and IIRC expelling all Arabs from there.

In 1993 there were 250,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Now there are 650,000. No such inconvenient facts or anything else that the Zionist government in Jerusalem dislikes gets any play in American media. The constant harassment of Palestinians, the completely arbitrary oppression, displacement, imprisonment and even murder of Palestinians committed with impunity by settlers and Israeli soldiers alike, none of that is ever mentioned. And then there is all the outrage and anger when some of them lash out.

Netanyahoo, Lebensraum and their ilk will, if they get to have their way, ethnically cleanse Israel until there are only Jews left, though on what time scale, is still open to question.

In what part of my previous post did I mention I was a supporter of Israel? Their polices are just as disgusting and abhorrent as Hamas is as far as I'm concerned. Neither side has any moral authority here.

I will be clear: until both sides stop electing and supporting governments which openly call for the destruction of the other side, there won't be peace. It's not good enough for Israel to change its policies on its own and just "give up" since the way things are right now that would just embolden groups like Hamas to terrorize further and press their attacks. It's not good enough for Palestine to stop its Jihad and lay down their arms, since that will just prove to the Israelis that their tactics are working.

Unfortunately, in order for something meaningful to happen both sides have to come together simultaneously and be serious about it, and quite frankly I can't see that happening any time soon.

Yeah, they do all that you said and take no real precautions to avoid killing Arab civilians because they're not like, people or anything. The only difference between the Arabs and the Jews is military hardware.

It doesn't help when the Palestinian government uses civilian structures for military use, and encourages Palestinian civilians to be human shields whenever the Israelis decide to strike.

[Ace Pace]

Yeah, they do all that you said and take no real precautions to avoid killing Arab civilians because they're not like, people or anything. The only difference between the Arabs and the Jews is military hardware.

Fucking christ, not this again. The IDF takes great care to avoid killing civilians but won't avoid killing them to hit targets. Similar to every western military engaged in actual combat. Does this make them saints? No. But neither are the U.S. or U.K militaries saints and they're also involved in day to day combat. I believe it's not useful to hold any western army to a standard of conduct that the rest don't hold with.

It is incredibly hard to avoid hitting civilians in Gaza, a land area with a population density that makes New York City seem roomy at some parts. The IDF also refuses (understandably) to put it's own soldiers lives in danger just to take more of a safety margin.

I'll phrase this another way, since the IDF is ordered to fight in Gaza, how should it act to prevent more civilian deaths? Give them weeks to evacuate (to where?)? Do more than leaflets + phone calls to the exact building being attacked?

[Tribble]

Yeah, they do all that you said and take no real precautions to avoid killing Arab civilians because they're not like, people or anything. The only difference between the Arabs and the Jews is military hardware.

Fucking christ, not this again. The IDF takes great care to avoid killing civilians but won't avoid killing them to hit targets. Similar to every western military engaged in actual combat. Does this make them saints? No. But neither are the U.S. or U.K militaries saints and they're also involved in day to day combat. I believe it's not useful to hold any western army to a standard of conduct that the rest don't hold with.

It is incredibly hard to avoid hitting civilians in Gaza, a land area with a population density that makes New York City seem roomy at some parts. The IDF also refuses (understandably) to put it's own soldiers lives in danger just to take more of a safety margin.

I'll phrase this another way, since the IDF is ordered to fight in Gaza, how should it act to prevent more civilian deaths? Give them weeks to evacuate (to where?)? Do more than leaflets + phone calls to the exact building being attacked?

The IDF could refuse the orders on the grounds that bombing gaza over and over again hasn't produced any real results and is, in all probability, putting Israel at greater risk of retaliation. "I was just following orders" doesn't excuse their bombings.

Not that that excuses the Palestinians for bombing Israel, of course.

[Simon_Jester]

Except that when the IDF doesn't bomb Gaza, Hamas responds by building and launching rockets faster. The "real result" of the campaign is fewer Israelis getting blown up by rockets.

I have seen even pro zionist people hate netenyahu. Part of the problem is that things like the UN report saying Gaza will be uninhabitable by 2020. Combine that with "Protective Edge" and it gives the impression Israel wants genocide

Uninhabitable in which sense, by the way?

I have seen even pro zionist people hate netenyahu. Part of the problem is that things like the UN report saying Gaza will be uninhabitable by 2020. Combine that with "Protective Edge" and it gives the impression Israel wants genocide

The Palestinians chose this. They could have accepted Israel's unilateral act of good faith in evicting all Israelis from the Gaza Strip and ending the occupation, but they chose to squander this opportunity to prove that a similar withdrawal from the West Bank would end the fighting. Everything that they have suffered since then is because of their own stupidity.

Are you actually arguing that Palestinians deserve to be exterminated due to some sort of collective guilt (remember, not all Palestinians engaged in the acts you refer to) because their leadership "squandered" a chance for peace?

Just because they don't deserve it, doesn't mean they didn't choose it.

I mean, I would argue that heroin addicts don't deserve to die horribly of overdoses... but if you choose to start using heroin, there is a high probability that this is what will end up happening to you. Actions have consequences, and sometimes the consequences fall upon people who didn't deserve the outcome they chose for themselves.

Are you actually arguing that Palestinians deserve to be exterminated due to some sort of collective guilt (remember, not all Palestinians engaged in the acts you refer to) because their leadership "squandered" a chance for peace?

You as well as I likely already know his answer to that.

The whole IvP shitfest is a cesspool. God forbid you say anything wrong about any side. My stance is cut off all funding and aide to Israel till it adopts a Constitution that clearly spells out human rights, makes all Palestinians, even the refugees, citizens and hold immediate elections without pre-conditions and a blanket pardon to all factions in the dispute, including removing Palestinians off terror lists, followed by a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Will never happen, but I can dream.

What happens, in this scenario when (not if, when) current members of Hamas decide to keep killing Israelis in pursuit of their goal of a Palestinian homeland that includes the land the Israelis still occupy?

The thing about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is that it was established after the oppressive minority was dethroned... but also after the oppressed majority had agreed to not kill everyone.

If this difference strikes you as irrelevant, then all you are doing is dreaming of replacing one possible anticipated genocide with an even more probable one.

If you actually bothered to find out anything resembling actual facts about that situation, you wouldn't be spouting bullshit like that. Gaza is no less an open air prison camp for that, since Israel controls all aspects of who and what goes in there, when and how and tends to use massive collective punishment at the drop of a hat.

And the Palestinian leadership elects to respond to this situation with barrages of unguided rockets fired randomly at any Israeli within several dozen kilometers... which does literally nothing to relieve the suffering of any Palestinian or reduce Israel's power to inflict such suffering. And which has the effect of causing even Israelis who don't actually hate Palestinians personally (I'm sure there are a few non-racist Israelis left?) to want the Gaza Strip oppressed out of a desire for self-defense.

It's not that the Israelis aren't oppressing Palestinians.

It's that this is such a staggeringly stupid plan on the part of the Palestinian leadership, and one that the average Palestinian citizen seems to show no sign of opposing, that Palestine's interests in the conflict are effectively doomed by the sheer uselessness of its approach to that conflict. Nothing they want to accomplish can possibly occur as a result of what they're doing to accomplish it.

Indeed, the things Palestine would want to accomplish can basically only be performed in spite of what the Palestinians are doing, by someone else (probably the Israelis) deciding to literally ignore their actions and not respond in the predictable, normal ways.

The Palestinians won't quit as the Israelis have shown repeatably they won't respect their elections or deals.

Has the Palestinians' decision to keep shooting at Israelis in any way, shape, or form aided their own cause?

Hamas agreed to a new deal with Fatah, Israel using false evidence accused them of killing teens and turkey shot Gaza Civilians while Hamas restricted itself to Military Targets despite having numerous chances to raid civilian settlements, choosing instead to hit Israeli Military Outposts.

Given the comical inaccuracy of Hamas's weapons this is a moot point, because the rockets hit civilian targets far more often than Randomly Capitalized military outposts anyway.

So you can see why Hamas wants the State of Israel destroyed, its genocidal, either it goes or the Palestinian people die. There is a difference between State and People. The State of Israel in its current form as a Secular Theocracy has to be destroyed for there to be peace and replaced by a new State that is a Democratic Republic with a strong Constitution that protects Human Rights.

If Hamas has no power to destroy the state of Israel directly (which it obviously doesn't or it would already have done so), then why are they still wasting their resources trying, when doing so actively reduces the odds of the Israeli people ever 'coming to their senses' and embracing a solution that is more reasonable in Palestinian eyes?

All the answers come down to "Palestinians want revenge for past wrongs" or something like that. And bluntly, committing national self-immolation out of a desire for revenge is insanity.

[Ace Pace]

The IDF could refuse the orders on the grounds that bombing gaza over and over again hasn't produced any real results and is, in all probability, putting Israel at greater risk of retaliation. "I was just following orders" doesn't excuse their bombings.

Not that that excuses the Palestinians for bombing Israel, of course.

For starters, what Simon_Jester said. Furthermore, the IDF has a very strong non-political tradition and will complain behind closed doors. I'm not very familiar with militaries which aren't the IDF or the U.S. military but the U.S. army seems to have a much stronger involvement in politics than would be acceptable here.

The IDF also doesn't see it that way, the first mission is protection of Israeli Citizens, over the short and medium term, Cast Lead, Pillar of Cloud and Protective Edge all served these goals. The political situation is not the military's job and if the IDF went and involved itself in Israeli politics then you'd rightly claim that's coup territory.

On the moral end, the IDF has 3 level of orders. A legal order, which understandably gets carried out. An illegal order, which you must perform then report to a more senior rank and a "black flag" order, meaning a command so immoral that there is a "black flag of warning" flapping above it.
Over the last decade, multiple people have used this argument to avoid serving in Gaza, bombing Gaza, etc. most famously by 27 pilots in 2003. However so far this has been a minority phenomenon.

To avoid adding my own experience but just local knowledge, it's well known that many people in the IDF have conflicted opinions on what they should do, but the facts on the ground (most of which are not reported in the west) along with a healthy serving of understanding that there is no way out, lead many to continue doing their job while minimising civilian deaths on both ends. At the end of the day, when your family is in some neighborhood cellar (and it's always family because it's a very small country) you want to minimise their danger.