Erdogan's wife praises harems

[K. A. Pital]

http://www.dw.com/en/turkish-first-lady ... a-19105787

Turkish first lady praises Ottoman-era harem for 'preparing women for life'

The wife of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Emine, has praised the harem as an "educational establishment" during a speech. Her husband had also made controversial remarks on motherhood on International Women's Day.

Emine Erdogan was addressing a Wednesday event on Ottoman sultans in Ankara when she lavished praise on the sultan's institutional concubines.

"The harem was a school for members of the Ottoman dynasty and an educational establishment for preparing women for life," she said, according to Turkish TV broadcasts and reports in domestic newspapers including Hurriyet.

The term "harem" has long been associated with polygamy and concubines; though during the Ottoman period it was an institution with very strict, detailed rules, which even the sultan adhered to. Each woman was educated in whichever discipline she showed the most promise - for example calligraphy, decorative arts, music or foreign languages.

The Turkish president and his wife regularly speak of their attachment to Islamic principles and the values of the defunct Ottoman Empire, from which the modern Turkish state was founded in 1923.

International Women's Day flashpoint

Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Emine Erdogan waving to the cameras.

Recept Tayyip Erdogan has dominated Turkey as prime minister from 2003-2014 and now as president. He and wife Emine regularly espouse nostalgia for Ottoman institutions in their speeches.

Emine Erdogan's remarks followed her husband's controversial speech on Tuesday, International Women's Day, in which he repeated his call for women to propagate. In the past he's called for Turkish women to have at least three children and called birth control "treason."

"I know there will be some who will be annoyed, but for me a woman is above all a mother," the president told an audience of women in Ankara marking International Women's Day.

He further criticized capitalism for "enslaving" women in pursuit of profit.

"You cannot free women by destroying the notion of family," Erdogan said.

Women protest president's remarks

Hours after the president's speech, thousands of women gathered in central Istanbul on Tuesday evening to demand gender equality, which many said was being eroded by the Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP) that's ruled since 2002.
"The policy of the AKP and the male hegemony that dominates our society is intended to keep women at the heart of the home and the family," a female protester named Gursun told the AFP news agency.

It's the not the first time President Erdogan has waded into the gender controversy. In the past he's proposed to limit abortions, likening them to massacres and opposed the the morning-after pill and Caesarian sections.

Domestic violence in Turkey - often involving wives killed by their husbands - has risen sharply in recent years and activists complain that too little is done to defend women from their family, boyfriends and spouses.

Not sure this requires a lengthy comment; as it is but one in a long string of news from Erdoganland where reactionary bullshit is becoming the new state-propagated 'truth' every day.

[Thanas]

Emine Erdogan's remarks followed her husband's controversial speech on Tuesday, International Women's Day, in which he repeated his call for women to propagate. In the past he's called for Turkish women to have at least three children and called birth control "treason."

Next up, the mother crescent in bronze, silver and gold.

He further criticized capitalism for "enslaving" women in pursuit of profit.

Unlike the harem, where you got enslaved (without quottion marks) and no slave ever was sold into it for profit, I am sure.

[LaCroix]

I guess she's wanting concubines because that means she doesn't have to sleep with him as often as they do now. The only reason I can come up with.

[Zixinus]

That's what mistresses and prostitutes are for in our modern world.

[Honorius]

You do realize she is speaking the truth?

The Harem was the power broker for the Ottoman Empire. The Valide Sultans often ruled the Empire and even deposed sons who they thought too weak.

Many of the girls in the Harem were actually celibate and the equivalent of nuns.

Also the girls in the Harem owned their own property which the Sultan could not legally touch and were highly active in promoting the arts and culture of the Empire as they also were a business corporation.

If you guys were thinking scantily clad women, with half-naked black Eunuchs is a Harem, you need to quit looking at Orientalist paintings and writings which are racist bullshit and an insult to the very intelligent and industrious women who occupied the Harems and often ran all but the military of the Ottoman Empire. They also had freedom to move around the city except when security could not be assured which makes sense as they were part of the Royal Household and subject to attacks like heads of state today.

But seeing the blatant racism with regard to Erdogan who has made Turkey a Modern Multicultural Democratic State where you can speak Kurdish and Armenian without getting arrested and attend school or enter state buildings wearing whatever you damn well please, I'm not holding my breath.

In EMS we have a saying, don't get distracted by the grotesque wound and ignore the underlying issue. The underlying issue is people hear Harem and think scantily clad slave girls and eunuchs when it was something completely different.

This was what Ermine was talking about and as usual KA Pital and Thanas missed the point and descended into baseless Erdogan Conspiracy Theories.

[Thanas]

You do realize she is speaking the truth?

Complete bullshit. She praised the harem for preparing women for life. Pray tell, what lives did they lead after their preparation in the harem? Did they live outside that "preparation school"? No.

That is like saying a prison prepares people for life who are serving a life sentence.

[K. A. Pital]

Indeed - some hardcore criminals refer to prison and jail as the "school of life". But it really isn't. And Honorius is clearly an idiot, which his comments here prove masterfully.

I think our little dumbass has forgotten that harems were prisons in all but name to 99% of women there; for some, like house arrest, for others (princes and ordinary concubines, for example), a genuine jail until their death. Which could come by rather unnatural means, like strangling. Only the mother of the heir who was a favorite and the Valide enjoyed real power, the rest were nothing.

I've read more than one book on the harem structures in the time of Sultan Suleyman Hazrletleri, but at no point I thought that a prison for female concubines used as living procreation machines was a school of life for anyone. Giving birth to heirs who slaughter each other in power struggles while incarcerated for life and forcibly married to low-ranking aristocrats - that is certainly a very important experience for a woman!

"Scantily clad"? Where did this shit even come from? Here we don't waste our time on urban legends, DisHonorius.

[Welf]

I guess she's wanting concubines because that means she doesn't have to sleep with him as often as they do now. The only reason I can come up with.

I think this is one of the cases where people say something is "good", but actually mean "good for someone else, I deserve better".

[K. A. Pital]

It is like the Southern slavery apologists: they say slavery was good for the slaves, but at no point does this mean they find it useful or good for themselves.

[wautd]

One has to remember that there's history and there's Turkish alternate made-up fantasy history. You know, stuff like the Turks discovering the Americas first or denying the Armanian genocide.

[Flagg]

One has to remember that there's history and there's Turkish alternate made-up fantasy history. You know, stuff like the Turks discovering the Americas first or denying the Armanian genocide.

The Armenians weren't genocided. They all just got into boats and sailed to Avalon. That's the current BS, right? It's always changing.

[wautd]

One has to remember that there's history and there's Turkish alternate made-up fantasy history. You know, stuff like the Turks discovering the Americas first or denying the Armanian genocide.

The Armenians weren't genocided. They all just got into boats and sailed to Avalon. That's the current BS, right? It's always changing.

At least is comforting to know that all those girls used as sex slaves got chance to get proper education if they were fortunate enough to en up in a harem

[LaCroix]

At least is comforting to know that all those girls used as sex slaves got chance to get proper education in a fine art to further/better entertain her master in other ways than just with her body if they were fortunate enough to en up in a harem

The harsh truth is even worse - it's not as these harem girls were trained to become scientists or doctors, they were trained educated to paint, sing, dance,etc..

[Flagg]

One has to remember that there's history and there's Turkish alternate made-up fantasy history. You know, stuff like the Turks discovering the Americas first or denying the Armanian genocide.

The Armenians weren't genocided. They all just got into boats and sailed to Avalon. That's the current BS, right? It's always changing.

At least is comforting to know that all those girls used as sex slaves got chance to get proper education if they were fortunate enough to en up in a harem

It really is fucking disgusting. "Here, let us teach you about the world you will never get to see because you're going to be raped forever." **puke**

[Ziggy Stardust]

You do realize she is speaking the truth?

She is not. At best, it is a cherry-picked version of the truth.

The Harem was the power broker for the Ottoman Empire.

No. It was a symbol of the sultan's power. Ownership of women was a sign of wealth, power, and sexual prowess. It was not a "power broker," except in unusual situations when some of the women became involved in court intrigue. Most of them were slaves, who likely had been kidnapped to be brought to the harem, whose only role in life was the sexual gratification of the sultan.

The Valide Sultans often ruled the Empire and even deposed sons who they thought too weak.

While it is true that there were some powerful Valide Sultans, these were the exception and not the rule. Just as in Western history there were some powerful Queen Mothers, and in Eastern history there were some powerful Dowager Empresses. That did not mean that the mothers of heirs/rulers were always powerful. Mostly, they were just respected due to cultural attitudes towards mothers. But, even if one woman in the harem did become powerful due to court intrigue, did not change the fact that she was most likely a slave for her entire life, or change the fact that the rest of the women in the harem were mostly slaves for life. In most cases, the Valide Sultan was more functionally equivalent to black overseers as occasionally existed in Southern Plantations: slaves who earned certain benefits for themselves by controlling the other slaves on behalf of the owners.

Many of the girls in the Harem were actually celibate and the equivalent of nuns.

Citation needed. Those concubines that were not used by the Sultan directly were used for menial labor to serve the concubines he favored, and were often "given" for the sexual gratification of the Sultan's guests as a gift. They were sex slaves. Pure and simple.

Also the girls in the Harem owned their own property which the Sultan could not legally touch and were highly active in promoting the arts and culture of the Empire as they also were a business corporation.

Citation needed. The only "arts and culture" that women in the harem were taught were how to dance, sing, recite poetry, play music, and otherwise entertain men.

If you guys were thinking scantily clad women, with half-naked black Eunuchs is a Harem, you need to quit looking at Orientalist paintings and writings which are racist bullshit and an insult to the very intelligent and industrious women who occupied the Harems and often ran all but the military of the Ottoman Empire.

Even the most powerful Valide Sultan was only co-regent, and certainly didn't run the entire empire. And this was a radical exception, and not the rule.

They also had freedom to move around the city except when security could not be assured which makes sense as they were part of the Royal Household and subject to attacks like heads of state today.

A blatant lie. Women were not allowed to leave the harem without AT LEAST the permission of the Valide Sultan, and even then often needed the additional permission of the sultan himself. They were not free to wander the city, and in fact were forbidden to socialize with anyone outside of the harem and the immediate royal court in which they were in contact.

In EMS we have a saying, don't get distracted by the grotesque wound and ignore the underlying issue. The underlying issue is people hear Harem and think scantily clad slave girls and eunuchs when it was something completely different.

You are engaging in historical revision and fanciful thinking. You are cherry-picking some of the extreme exceptional cases of women from a harem becoming powerful over the entire history of the empire and using that as a justification for ignoring the many thousands of sex slaves that were kidnapped and sold into the harem and lived their lives in servitude, for menial labor and sex.

[Flagg]

At least is comforting to know that all those girls used as sex slaves got chance to get proper education in a fine art to further/better entertain her master in other ways than just with her body if they were fortunate enough to en up in a harem

The harsh truth is even worse - it's not as these harem girls were trained to become scientists or doctors, they were trained educated to paint, sing, dance,etc..

Weird, I didn't see this post when I responded to wautd. Anyway, that's even worse.

[Elfdart]

I guess she's wanting concubines because that means she doesn't have to sleep with him as often as they do now. The only reason I can come up with.

I think this is one of the cases where people say something is "good", but actually mean "good for someone else, I deserve better".

Quite a few middle-aged women (and older) are willing to tolerate a husband's skirt-chasing so long as divorce is unlikely and they don't bring their mistresses or bimbos home with them (see Clinton, Hillary). Frankly, they're probably glad to have the horny old goat out of the house for a change.