Is Donald Drumpf racist?

[Gandalf]

Whenever this comes up in N&P threads, it tends to cause a thread derailment, so I thought I would create a thread to discuss this.

Ever since John Oliver's bold attempt at relevance through his "Make Donald Drumpf Again" hashtag, it has become commonplace to make fun of Trump using the name Drumpf. Drumpf of course is the name his ancestors had when they migrated from Germany to the US, which was changed sometime prior to 1885. This name and its changing has nothing to do with Donald himself, but instead reflect a process of Anglicisation which is used to fold foreigners into an Anglocentric cultural context. As far as I can tell, it serves no purpose other than to make fun of someone because their grandparents had a funny sounding foreign name. So, is it racist to use Drumpf in such a way?

[Crazedwraith]

My understanding is that its not making fun of him for a funny name as such. It is emphasising his hypocrisy. If his policies on immigration were in force when his ancestors wanted to immigrate he wouldnt be running for president today.

Though whether thats the viewpoint of the people actually using the nickname I do not know.

[Purple]

That's one thing I don't understand. Why is it hypocritical to say that policies that worked in the past don't also work today? The entire line of reasoning makes zero sense.

[Elheru Aran]

That's one thing I don't understand. Why is it hypocritical to say that policies that worked in the past don't also work today? The entire line of reasoning makes zero sense.

Because times and people change. Also, the policies of the past aren't necessarily RIGHT. Frequently, in moral terms, they were worse than what we have now.

[Crazedwraith]

That's one thing I don't understand. Why is it hypocritical to say that policies that worked in the past don't also work today? The entire line of reasoning makes zero sense.

That would depend on whether conditions have changed substanially and whether Trump was actually anti-immigration because of those reasons and not for irrational one like being a racist dick.

Eta: quote to make it cear who i was addressing

[The Romulan Republic]

Oliver explains his own reasoning behind it in these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ (skip to about 18 minutes in for Drumpf).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x056ioqqn8A

You can make up your own mind as to weather its racist, but at least listen to the reasoning behind it before reaching conclusions about the motives of those using it. Of course, other individuals may have their own reasons for adopting the moniker, but this is where it originated.

Essentially, the basis of his argument is that the name "Trump" is basically synonymous with the Trump brand of business success for a lot of people, and he's trying to undermine that. Although some of it is just him screwing around because, you know, he's a comedian.

[Grumman]

My understanding is that its not making fun of him for a funny name as such. It is emphasising his hypocrisy. If his policies on immigration were in force when his ancestors wanted to immigrate he wouldnt be running for president today.

That's stupid.

One, it is not hypocritical to disagree with your parents, or to disagree with ancestors who died before you were born. Not even if you are a beneficiary of your ancestor's actions: for an extreme example, a person who was a child of rape would never have been born if that crime had never been committed, but that doesn't make them a hypocrite if they're anti-rape.

Two, it is not hypocritical to be opposed to some immigrants and not others. If a would-be immigrant's first act is to hire a smuggler to help him deliberately violate America's laws, or if a would-be refugee holds beliefs that would make him one of the people refugees need refuge from*, that is a reasonable basis for refusing them residency even if you believe that immigration visas should be "shall-issue" rather than "may-issue".

*A significant minority of Muslims openly believe that apostates should be executed, ranging from ~2% in Turkey to ~65% in Egypt. If you're going to accept asylum seekers claiming to be from Syria, you at least need to weed out the ones who want to murder the other asylum seekers for being ex-Muslims.

[Patroklos]

My understanding is that its not making fun of him for a funny name as such. It is emphasising his hypocrisy. If his policies on immigration were in force when his ancestors wanted to immigrate he wouldnt be running for president today.

How do you figure? Did they immigrate illegally?

[Tanasinn]

No. Which is part of why John Oliver's meme never really took off outside of tumblr spamming it and the occasional subreddit.

[Thanas]

I wouldn't go as far as claiming that it is racist, just that using it resembles some of the anti-German racist behaviour of the past and that I would not use it for that reason alone.

It doesn't go as far as "Washington Redskins" to me btu I do think it is in bad taste.

[Gandalf]

Oliver explains his own reasoning behind it in these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ (skip to about 18 minutes in for Drumpf).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x056ioqqn8A

You can make up your own mind as to whether it's racist, but at least listen to the reasoning behind it before reaching conclusions about the motives of those using it. Of course, other individuals may have their own reasons for adopting the moniker, but this is where it originated.

Essentially, the basis of his argument is that the name "Trump" is basically synonymous with the Trump brand of business success for a lot of people, and he's trying to undermine that. Although some of it is just him screwing around because, you know, he's a comedian.

Yeah, I saw the video when it came out. His whole point is "The Trump name has an association to the Trump business entity, and Drumpf sounds like a sound effect. He should be proud of his heritage!" Do you know why some people, despite being proud of their heritage, change their name? Because fuckwits think that their non-Anglicised names sound funny and as a result won't take them seriously/hire them/etc. I've had friends from various parts of the world who have had this problem.

I understand trying to comedically undermine Trump's branding, but I fail to see the purpose in invoking a name change that happened at least a hundred and thirty years ago. I thought Oliver (and others) would be beyond making fun of people's funny foreign names as a source of humour, though it leads me to wonder how Oliver feels about Jon Stewart not using his last name on air?

[ArmorPierce]

No. Which is part of why John Oliver's meme never really took off outside of tumblr spamming it and the occasional subreddit.

That's not what happened. Donald Trump was mocking Jon Stewart for angolizing his name. The whole Drumpf thing started as a response to Donald Trump's mocking and pointing out that Donald Trump's own family changed their name. Also, I think it is related to the fact that 'Drumpf' kind of looks like 'Dumb'

http://gawker.com/donald-trump-lashes-o ... -489657795
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -name.html

[ArmorPierce]

Oliver explains his own reasoning behind it in these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnpO_RTSNmQ (skip to about 18 minutes in for Drumpf).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x056ioqqn8A

You can make up your own mind as to whether it's racist, but at least listen to the reasoning behind it before reaching conclusions about the motives of those using it. Of course, other individuals may have their own reasons for adopting the moniker, but this is where it originated.

Essentially, the basis of his argument is that the name "Trump" is basically synonymous with the Trump brand of business success for a lot of people, and he's trying to undermine that. Although some of it is just him screwing around because, you know, he's a comedian.

Yeah, I saw the video when it came out. His whole point is "The Trump name has an association to the Trump business entity, and Drumpf sounds like a sound effect. He should be proud of his heritage!" Do you know why some people, despite being proud of their heritage, change their name? Because fuckwits think that their non-Anglicised names sound funny and as a result won't take them seriously/hire them/etc. I've had friends from various parts of the world who have had this problem.

I understand trying to comedically undermine Trump's branding, but I fail to see the purpose in invoking a name change that happened at least a hundred and thirty years ago. I thought Oliver (and others) would be beyond making fun of people's funny foreign names as a source of humour, though it leads me to wonder how Oliver feels about Jon Stewart not using his last name on air?

Yeah... read my response... they were responding to Donald Trump mocking Jon Stewart angolizing his name. The entire thing about should be proud of their heritage was a parody on the part of John Oliver and others.

[RogueIce]

The thing is, there's some dispute as to when the name changed: Wikipedia Link

Never mind the why of the change, which if you can't nail down the timeline I doubt you can speak to the reasons. Anyway, if it was back in the 17th century as some sources suggest, it's hardly hypocrisy on his part (not that it would have been with a 1885 change, for that matter). Surnames do change over the years, I'm sure a lot of people's family histories have examples. Regardless of the merits (or lack thereof) in his exchange with Jon Stewart, the two just aren't the same. TBH I'm not sure there's sufficient evidence his family ever did "Anglicize" the name, in the context of immigration to the US anyway. So there goes that reason.

Frankly I think the whole thing is stupid. But then, I always thought "Shrub" was equally idiotic. The people who used that back in the day were stupid then, the people using "Drumpf" today are stupid now. He's not fucking Voldemort, you can say his goddamn name.

[Mr Bean]

I've said it before, it's Racist because it's born in the same tradition of all up and coming racial slurs, it's meant to imply "The other". Look up the fun history of the word Kike one of the one hundred and one racial slurs for Jews to find a brief history on how immigrants were signled out because of nothing more sinister than some illiterate Jewish immigrants signed there name with a circle instead of an X the "traditional" short hand for my signature when I can't read or write. But give something like than twenty years and shop keepers are putting up signs says No Kikes served here.

All racial slurs start in that bit of history, lets take a group of people and invent our own dismissive name for them which we will call them instead of their own names. The only thing different about Drumpf is that it started to refer to a person not a group... however I've already heard Drumpf used in the collective sense to refer to Trump and his supporters.

Which is why I say here, given it oh lets say four years of a Trump presidency before you start hearing Drumpfs as slur against those backing Trump now.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I've said it before, it's Racist because it's born in the same tradition of all up and coming racial slurs, it's meant to imply "The other".

Except that's not at all what it's meant to imply or how it has been used by anyone. As has been posted multiple times already in this thread and elsewhere, the name's main purpose is to point out Trump's hypocrisy when he criticized John Stewart for anglisizing his name, and it's secondary purpose is related to making fun of Trump's business/media brand. It's fine if you think it's stupid (it is), and it's fine if you think it's in bad taste, but claiming that it is on par with an actual racial slur is either deliberate trolling or deliberate ignorance.

[Mr Bean]

Except that's not at all what it's meant to imply or how it has been used by anyone. As has been posted multiple times already in this thread and elsewhere, the name's main purpose is to point out Trump's hypocrisy when he criticized John Stewart for anglisizing his name, and it's secondary purpose is related to making fun of Trump's business/media brand. It's fine if you think it's stupid (it is), and it's fine if you think it's in bad taste, but claiming that it is on par with an actual racial slur is either deliberate trolling or deliberate ignorance.

I believe you ignored the section were I explicit mentioned I've already heard Drumpf used as a collective term not as an individual term referring to Donald Trump. You would agree if it is used as such to refer to people other than just Donald Trump himself it becomes similar to the origin of other such terms in the past?

[Highlord Laan]

No. Which is part of why John Oliver's meme never really took off outside of tumblr spamming it and the occasional subreddit.

That's not what happened. Donald Trump was mocking Jon Stewart for angolizing his name. The whole Drumpf thing started as a response to Donald Trump's mocking and pointing out that Donald Trump's own family changed their name. Also, I think it is related to the fact that 'Drumpf' kind of looks like 'Dumb'

http://gawker.com/donald-trump-lashes-o ... -489657795
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -name.html

I just settle with calling him "Il Douche." Then shaking my head when people don't get it.

[LadyTevar]

Here I thought you were asking if HE was a racist.

The answer to that is "If not, he's doing a good job acting like one"

[Thanas]

The thing is, there's some dispute as to when the name changed: Wikipedia Link

Never mind the why of the change, which if you can't nail down the timeline I doubt you can speak to the reasons. Anyway, if it was back in the 17th century as some sources suggest, it's hardly hypocrisy on his part (not that it would have been with a 1885 change, for that matter). Surnames do change over the years, I'm sure a lot of people's family histories have examples. Regardless of the merits (or lack thereof) in his exchange with Jon Stewart, the two just aren't the same. TBH I'm not sure there's sufficient evidence his family ever did "Anglicize" the name, in the context of immigration to the US anyway. So there goes that reason.

Just speaking as a German, Trump is nothing but angliziced Trumpf (a trump card). It is easy to see Drumpf change to Trumpf somewhere.

[Purple]

That's not what happened. Donald Trump was mocking Jon Stewart for angolizing his name. The whole Drumpf thing started as a response to Donald Trump's mocking and pointing out that Donald Trump's own family changed their name. Also, I think it is related to the fact that 'Drumpf' kind of looks like 'Dumb'

http://gawker.com/donald-trump-lashes-o ... -489657795
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -name.html

So what you are saying is that in no uncertain terms you have empirical evidence to show that Trump started this and that thus anyone who responds by mocking his name is using his own tools and thus in absolutely no uncertain terms no better than Trump.

This just made my day.

[ArmorPierce]

That's not what happened. Donald Trump was mocking Jon Stewart for angolizing his name. The whole Drumpf thing started as a response to Donald Trump's mocking and pointing out that Donald Trump's own family changed their name. Also, I think it is related to the fact that 'Drumpf' kind of looks like 'Dumb'

http://gawker.com/donald-trump-lashes-o ... -489657795
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -name.html

So what you are saying is that in no uncertain terms you have empirical evidence to show that Trump started this and that thus anyone who responds by mocking his name is using his own tools and thus in absolutely no uncertain terms no better than Trump.

This just made my day.

Actually no, that's not at all what I'm saying, but thank you for putting words in my mouth. People who are mocking his name are not actually mocking his name. They are mocking him for being a hypocrite and a dumb ass.

Your comment is effectively the same argument that bigots use against people camping them a bigot. "I'm not a bigot, you're the real bigot for being bigoted against me! " congratulations


It appears that some in this thread lack the background or critical thinking skills to arrive at that realization. I recommend folks withhold comments until they have all the facts.

[Purple]

All I am saying is that if you dislike someone because he acts a certain way and than you show your dislike of him by acting in that exact same way this tells something about you as a person.

[Adam Reynolds]

All I am saying is that if you dislike someone because he acts a certain way and than you show your dislike of him by acting in that exact same way this tells something about you as a person.

Except for the fact that John Oliver is a comedian rather than a presidential candidate. He doesn't have to be dignified.

[Purple]

All I am saying is that if you dislike someone because he acts a certain way and than you show your dislike of him by acting in that exact same way this tells something about you as a person.

Except for the fact that John Oliver is a comedian rather than a presidential candidate. He doesn't have to be dignified.

What does that matter? If you do the same thing you criticize other people for doing than you are no better than they are. Simple as that. Comedy does not absolve one of the responsibility of being held to ones own standards.