Fidel Castro dies, aged 90.

[Iroscato]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-38114953

Fidel Castro, Cuba's former president and leader of the Communist revolution, has died aged 90, state TV has announced.
It provided no further details.
Fidel Castro ruled Cuba as a one-party state for almost half a century before handing over the powers to his brother Raul in 2008.
His supporters praised him as a man who had given Cuba back to the people. But his opponents accused him of brutally suppressing opposition.
Obituary: Fidel Castro
In April, Fidel Castro gave a rare speech on the final day of the country's Communist Party congress.
He acknowledged his advanced age but said Cuban communist concepts were still valid and the Cuban people "will be victorious".

[FireNexus]

You couldn't have died three weeks ago, motherfucker?

[Iroscato]

More fitting for him to finally pop off in the middle of Capitalist Hate Week Black Friday, methinks.

[K. A. Pital]

Rest in peace, old brother. Rest in peace.

[Honorius]

Survived 638 assassination attempts, dies of Old Age.

Can't fault him for that.

Now hopefully relations can normalize and we stop hearing stupid Cuban Exiles bleating about the need to invade Cuba which has done nothing to the US despite having every reason to justifiably seize back Gauntanomo Bay which is a useless post anyway to keep.

[Tribble]

In some ways I hope the USA stays away from Cuba and doesn't try to take over via corporate colonialism again; it was American corruption which largely fueled the revolution in the first place:

"I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear."—U.S. President John F. Kennedy, interview with Jean Daniel, 24 October 1963[27]

[Lord Revan]

While I don't want to sound insensitive hasn't Castro been essentially at death's door for quite a while, IIRC the main reason he stepped down was that he didn't want to die in office which would have been a likely outcome due to his poor health (at the time)

[Xisiqomelir]

Man I wish I could visit Miami right now.

The party is out of control from what I can see on the news.

[Col. Crackpot]

Good riddance to old rubbish and the last of the Cold Warriors who held the world hostage with their ideological arrogance.

[Flagg]

Well that sucks. I know he was a bastard but the fact that he was a constant middle finger in the US's face was great.

[Patroklos]

In some ways I hope the USA stays away from Cuba and doesn't try to take over via corporate colonialism again; it was American corruption which largely fueled the revolution in the first place:

The average Cuban is hoping for quite the opposite.

[Broomstick]

Although I understand why some people are celebrating I still find celebrating someone's death distasteful.

[Tribble]

In some ways I hope the USA stays away from Cuba and doesn't try to take over via corporate colonialism again; it was American corruption which largely fueled the revolution in the first place:

The average Cuban is hoping for quite the opposite.

Perhaps, but there is a real risk of the USA screwing things up again; they have a poor record when it comes to nation building. If American corporate interests, corruption and greed take over like they did last time, would the Cuban people be any better off? At least the current regime makes the pretense of helping its citizens rather than being a blatant neo-colonial project. I can see American mega-firms stripping out whatever Cuba has left given half the chance. IMO Cubans would be very foolish to trust America again, especially given the current president-elect.

[Joun_Lord]

At least the current regime makes the pretense of helping its citizens rather than being a blatant neo-colonial project.

I could say I'm helping myself while trying to use a fork to pop off my kneecaps, doesn't mean its true or any better then if some mob goon was doing so and saying bluntly he's doing it to hurt me.

The regime helped the regime. The cuban people, not so much. Not unless you think torture, political murder of thousands or 10s of thousands, civil rights abuses, humans rights abuses, restriction of travel, ration cards for citizens while the elite had everything they wanted, and extreme censorship, all of which were practiced in the past or still done today. In some ways Cuba under Fidel had some things in common with North Korea like the isolation and corrupt elites while the people suffer, has ironically quite a bit in common with what people fear the presidency of the current presiden-elect will be.

A bunch of corporate whores strip mining the place is no better but again, the current situation isn't better just because someone says its for the good of the people.

[Flagg]

It's funny in a bad way that all of these Cuban exiles are celebrating the death of a 90 year old man despite his becoming worm food not changing anything since his brother Raul has been running things for a decade, more or less.

[Flagg]

At least the current regime makes the pretense of helping its citizens rather than being a blatant neo-colonial project.

I could say I'm helping myself while trying to use a fork to pop off my kneecaps, doesn't mean its true or any better then if some mob goon was doing so and saying bluntly he's doing it to hurt me.

The regime helped the regime. The cuban people, not so much. Not unless you think torture, political murder of thousands or 10s of thousands, civil rights abuses, humans rights abuses, restriction of travel, ration cards for citizens while the elite had everything they wanted, and extreme censorship, all of which were practiced in the past or still done today. In some ways Cuba under Fidel had some things in common with North Korea like the isolation and corrupt elites while the people suffer, has ironically quite a bit in common with what people fear the presidency of the current presiden-elect will be.

A bunch of corporate whores strip mining the place is no better but again, the current situation isn't better just because someone says its for the good of the people.

It's not like they were faring much better under Batista aside from America's idiotic embargo. Not that I'm making excuses for the Castro regime, they were just as bad. But really, the best thing that could happen to Cuba and its citizens is to end the pointless, useless, and worthless embargo.

[Elfdart]

In some ways I hope the USA stays away from Cuba and doesn't try to take over via corporate colonialism again; it was American corruption which largely fueled the revolution in the first place:

The average Cuban is hoping for quite the opposite.

How would you know? Have you talked to Cubans lately?

No, the exiles in Miami don't count.

[Joun_Lord]

It's not like they were faring much better under Batista aside from America's idiotic embargo. Not that I'm making excuses for the Castro regime, they were just as bad. But really, the best thing that could happen to Cuba and its citizens is to end the pointless, useless, and worthless embargo.

I agree with everything you said. I'm not making excuses for the American idiot moves (are there any other kind) before or after Fidel took power but the notion that under Fidel things were all fine here now, thank you. How are you? Fidel was a bad person, like the imagined rein of El Trump the Clown if every bad thing the media has been saying would happen did happen. He might have given lip service to be being about his people but if he was then there wouldn't be 4,000 and 33,000 depending on the source people killed for political reasons, there wouldn't be over a million Cuban refugees living in America, and there wouldn't be so many of the immigrants celebrating the death of a man who for many long decades held a cloud over them, inflicted scars (sometimes literally) that still haven't healed.

Yes the best thing for Cuba and US/Cuban relations is to normalize relations. Not sending in the corporate commandos to build a McDonalds on every street corner but let the Cubans decide if they want McDonalds and mantits without the US stopping them if they don't or forcing them to accept it.

[Flagg]

It's not like they were faring much better under Batista aside from America's idiotic embargo. Not that I'm making excuses for the Castro regime, they were just as bad. But really, the best thing that could happen to Cuba and its citizens is to end the pointless, useless, and worthless embargo.

I agree with everything you said. I'm not making excuses for the American idiot moves (are there any other kind) before or after Fidel took power but the notion that under Fidel things were all fine here now, thank you. How are you? Fidel was a bad person, like the imagined rein of El Trump the Clown if every bad thing the media has been saying would happen did happen. He might have given lip service to be being about his people but if he was then there wouldn't be 4,000 and 33,000 depending on the source people killed for political reasons, there wouldn't be over a million Cuban refugees living in America, and there wouldn't be so many of the immigrants celebrating the death of a man who for many long decades held a cloud over them, inflicted scars (sometimes literally) that still haven't healed.

Yes the best thing for Cuba and US/Cuban relations is to normalize relations. Not sending in the corporate commandos to build a McDonalds on every street corner but let the Cubans decide if they want McDonalds and mantits without the US stopping them if they don't or forcing them to accept it.

Having grown up and worked in FL I knew many exiles, and quite frankly a majority had attitudes that just disgusted me. This may just have been me having run into the assholes (though the majority of second and third generation Cuban Americans (as opposed to "Cuban exiles", I'll get to that) just wanted the embargo lifted but didn't care much if it was under Castro or what the politics were), I don't know.

But the exiles, were basically saving and investing most of their income so that if/when the regime fell they could pack up, take their money, and buy up as much property as possible and basically be rich land owners. That's why I make a distinction between a Cuban American and a Cuban exile. Cuban Americans view Cuba as "the old country" much like any second or third generation ethnicity that comes to America, but the Exiles who complained so much about how horrible the Cuban people were treated wanted the embargo to stay whether it hurt the Cubans or not. It was all about making the regime fall and moving in to be the new boss. This is all anecdotal, of course.

I really do hope I just had the misfortune of just running into mostly assholes.

[Broomstick]

Going to have to agree with both Flagg and Joun Lord.

Fidel was a bad man. Not all bad - he did improve the lot of the Cubans who used to be on the bottom of the heap by giving them universal education, healthcare, food and housing. Granted, those might not have all been top shelf (and, of course, the elite got more and better) but since it was more than they had before they were better off and hailed Castro as a hero, which had quite a bit to do with him staying in power so long. If you were at the top, though, he took all your stuff and basically acted like Neegan in The Walking Dead, but with fewer flesh-eating zombies around. His means of taking power and enforcing the new regime were brutal. If you were on his side you benefited. If you were not on his side you suffered, sometimes horribly. You often didn't get to choose which side you were on, it was dictated by how well off, or not, your family was under Batista or his predecessor(s). And when things got really shitty he'd do something like dumping a bunch of convicts into rowboats and pointing them towards Florida.

On the other hand, the exiles (as Flagg defined them) really were all about "bide our time, watch Castro fall, then go in and take over." i.e. it would be their turn to be Neegan. They weren't (and aren't) the good guys, either.

Meanwhile, the actual Cuban-Americans, the ones who came here, cut their losses, and got on with their lives in a new place (like countless other refugees that have come to the US) are a different group psychologically. Yes, they still have family ties to Cuba, would like to see relatives, perhaps visit the place of their birth, or that of their parents/grandparents, but they are Americans now. They might visit Cuba (a few might even move there) but they aren't interested in being the New Neegan and taking over. Do business, yes, that will certainly interest many of them, but business as any other form of investment/entrepreneurship, not "buy up all the land we can and become the new bosses of all".

I get that many Cuban exiles and Cuban-Americans are celebrating, because the death of Castro does make for opportunities that didn't exist yesterday.

The problem is, the current President-elect is more likely (I think - I'd be happy to be wrong) to support Neegan than the Cuban-Americans. Which means instead of things getting better they'll get worse (except for Neegan, because now he has all your stuff).

[Guardsman Bass]

Good riddance. Fidel overthrew a right-wing dictator (good!), became a dictator himself (bad), and while he improved health care and education in the country*, he and his regime mismanaged just about everything else in the Cuban economy. By the time the Soviet Union fell, Cuba was incredibly dependent on Soviet aid, and their economy contracted something like 40% in the early 1990s once it was cut off. Now his brother is probably going to preside over a corrupt partial privatization, while relinquishing as little as they can on civil rights or democratic elections.

* Cuba before the Revolution was already one of the best Latin American countries in terms of health and education statistics, as well as per capita income. However, it had serious inequality and a massive urban-rural divide in terms of human development.

I don't say that out of sympathy for the Exiles, either. It's incredibly shitty that they've been able to keep up a useless blockade for nearly two decades after the end of the Cold War simply because they had the fortune to end up in a major swing state.

[K. A. Pital]

Good riddance. Fidel overthrew a right-wing dictator (good!), became a dictator himself (bad), and while he improved health care and education in the country*, he and his regime mismanaged just about everything else in the Cuban economy. By the time the Soviet Union fell, Cuba was incredibly dependent on Soviet aid, and their economy contracted something like 40% in the early 1990s once it was cut off.

How conveniently you ignore the embargo question. With whom should Cuba have traded if not the USSR? Embargo gave it no other choice.

I need to learn to be that skillful.

[Ziggy Stardust]

On the other hand, Cuba has also had more than twenty post-Soviet years where the U.S. is the ONLY country that won't trade with them. The rest of the world has no qualms. Surely, the embargo (as stupid and harmful as it was) cannot be blamed for ALL of Cuba's economic problems.

[K. A. Pital]

On the other hand, Cuba has also had more than twenty post-Soviet years where the U.S. is the ONLY country that won't trade with them. The rest of the world has no qualms. Surely, the embargo (as stupid and harmful as it was) cannot be blamed for ALL of Cuba's economic problems.

The rest of the world had pretty big qualms until the very recent thawing of relations.

In November 1991, the Cuban ambassador, Ricardo Alarcon, in a speech to the UN General Assembly, cited 27 recent cases of trade contracts interrupted by US pressure. The British journal Cuba Business claimed that British Petroleum was seemingly dissuaded by US authorities from investing in offshore oil exploration in Cuba despite being initially keenly interested. The Petroleum economist claimed, in September 1992, that the US State Department vigorously discouraged firms like Royal Dutch Shell and Clyde Petroleum from investing in Cuba.

Sanctioning a tiny state with not much to offer in the way of production or services is very easy, and it is quite possible to compel others not to trade with that state as well.

Since the Soviet collapse, Cuba has endured the hardships of the special period, but still does not seem to be doing terribly badly compared to some neighbors who don't have an embargo:

[MKSheppard]

How conveniently you ignore the embargo question. With whom should Cuba have traded if not the USSR? Embargo gave it no other choice.

ONE country did the embargo.