Mainstream news is often dog shit

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aerius
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Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by aerius »

From Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetar ... -grid/amp/
"Fake News" And How The Washington Post Rewrote Its Story On Russian Hacking Of The Power Grid
Kalev Leetaru , Contributor

On Friday the Washington Post sparked a wave of fear when it ran the breathless headline “Russian hackers penetrated U.S. electricity grid through a utility in Vermont, U.S. officials say.” The lead sentence offered “A code associated with the Russian hacking operation dubbed Grizzly Steppe by the Obama administration has been detected within the system of a Vermont utility, according to U.S. officials” and continued “While the Russians did not actively use the code to disrupt operations of the utility, according to officials who spoke on condition of anonymity in order to discuss a security matter, the penetration of the nation’s electrical grid is significant because it represents a potentially serious vulnerability.”

Yet, it turns out this narrative was false and as the chronology below will show, illustrates how effectively false and misleading news can ricochet through the global news echo chamber through the pages of top tier newspapers that fail to properly verify their facts.

The original article was posted online on the Washington Post’s website at 7:55PM EST. Using the Internet Archive’s Wayback Machine, we can see that sometime between 9:24PM and 10:06PM the Post updated the article to indicate that multiple computer systems at the utility had been breached (“computers” plural), but that further data was still being collected: “Officials said that it is unclear when the code entered the Vermont utility’s computers, and that an investigation will attempt to determine the timing and nature of the intrusion.” Several paragraphs of additional material were added between 8PM and 10PM, claiming and contextualizing the breach as part of a broader campaign of Russian hacking against the US, including the DNC and Podesta email breaches.

Despite the article ballooning from 8 to 18 paragraphs, the publication date of the article remained unchanged and no editorial note was appended, meaning that a reader being forwarded a link to the article would have no way of knowing the article they were seeing was in any way changed from the original version published 2 hours prior.

Yet, as the Post’s story ricocheted through the politically charged environment, other media outlets and technology experts began questioning the Post’s claims and the utility company itself finally issued a formal statement at 9:37PM EST, just an hour and a half after the Post’s publication, pushing back on the Post’s claims: “We detected the malware in a single Burlington Electric Department laptop not connected to our organization’s grid systems. We took immediate action to isolate the laptop and alerted federal officials of this finding.”

From Russian hackers burrowed deep within the US electrical grid, ready to plunge the nation into darkness at the flip of a switch, an hour and a half later the story suddenly became that a single non-grid laptop had a piece of malware on it and that the laptop was not connected to the utility grid in any way.

However, it was not until almost a full hour after the utility’s official press release (at around 10:30PM EST) that the Post finally updated its article, changing the headline to the more muted “Russian operation hacked a Vermont utility, showing risk to U.S. electrical grid security, officials say” and changed the body of the article to note “Burlington Electric said in a statement that the company detected a malware code used in the Grizzly Steppe operation in a laptop that was not connected to the organization’s grid systems. The firm said it took immediate action to isolate the laptop and alert federal authorities.” Yet, other parts of the article, including a later sentence claiming that multiple computers at the utility had been breached, remained intact.

The following morning, nearly 11 hours after changing the headline and rewriting the article to indicate that the grid itself was never breached and the “hack” was only an isolated laptop with malware, the Post still had not appended any kind of editorial note to indicate that it had significantly changed the focus of the article.

This is significant, as one driving force of fake news is that as much of 60% of the links shared on social media are shared based on the title alone, with the sharer not actually reading the article itself. Thus, the title assigned to an article becomes the story itself and the Post’s incorrect title meant that the story that spread virally through the national echo chamber was that the Russians had hacked into the US power grid.

Only after numerous outlets called out the Post’s changes did the newspaper finally append an editorial note at the very bottom of the article more than half a day later saying “An earlier version of this story incorrectly said that Russian hackers had penetrated the U.S. electric grid. Authorities say there is no indication of that so far. The computer at Burlington Electric that was hacked was not attached to the grid.”

Yet, even this correction is not a true reflection of public facts as known. The utility indicated only that a laptop was found to contain malware that has previously been associated with Russian hackers. As many pointed out, the malware in question is actually available for purchase online, meaning anyone could have used it and its mere presence is not a guarantee of Russian government involvement. Moreover, a malware infection can come from many sources, including visiting malicious websites and thus the mere presence of malware on a laptop computer does not necessarily indicate that Russian government hackers launched a coordinated hacking campaign to penetrate that machine – the infection could have come from something as simple as an employee visiting an infected website on a work computer.

Moreover, just as with the Santa Claus and the dying child story, the Post story went viral and was widely reshared, leading to embarrassing situations like CNBC tweeting out the story and then having to go back and retract the story.

Particularly fascinating that the original Post story mentioned that there were only two major power utilities in Vermont and that Burlington Electric was one of them, meaning it would have been easy to call both companies for comment. However, while the article mentions contacting DHS for comment, there is no mention of any kind that the Post reached out to either of the two utilities for comment. Given that Burlington issued its formal statement denying the Post’s claims just an hour and a half later, this would suggest that had the Post reached out to the company it likely could have corrected its story prior to publication.

When I reached out to Kris Coratti, Vice President of Communications and Events for the Washington Post for comment, she responded that regarding the headline change, “Headlines aren’t written by story authors. When editors realized it overreached, as happens from time to time with headlines, it was corrected.” She also indicated that posting the editor’s note at the bottom of the article instead of the top was a mistake and indeed this was corrected shortly after my email to her inquiring about it.

Ms. Coratti’s response regarding the article headline is a fascinating reminder of just how many different people and processes combine to produce a single article in a newspaper – that contrary to popular belief, a reporter doesn’t sit down and write a story, choose a headline and then hit “Publish” and have the story go live on the newspaper website. Most newspapers, like the Washington Post, either employ dedicated headline writers or have their editors write the headlines for each piece and articles typically go through an elaborate review process designed to catch these sorts of issues prior to publication.

It is also interesting to note that the Post said it was an error for the editorial note to be buried at the very bottom of the page instead of at the top of the article, as was done for the Santa Claus story. This reflects the chaotic nature of newsrooms in which an editorial note is frequently added by an editor simply logging into a CMS portal and updating a live page, rather than a templated system which automatically places all editorial notes in the same place with the same style and formatting to ensure consistency.

Equally fascinating, neither Ms. Coratti nor Post Public Relations responded to any of my remaining queries regarding the article’s fact checking process. In particular, the Post did not respond when I asked how headlines are fact checked and if headline writers conduct any form of fact checking to ensure their summarized version is consistent with known facts. The Post also did not respond to a request for comment on why it took nearly half a day from the time the article was rewritten until an editorial note was finally appended acknowledging that the conclusions of the original article were false and that the article had been substantively rewritten to support a different conclusion, nor did the Post comment on why the editor’s note was originally placed at the bottom of the article and only moved after I inquired about its location.

Yet, perhaps most intriguing is that, as with the Santa Claus story, the Post did not respond to repeated requests for comment regarding how it conducts fact checking for its stories. This marks twice in a row that the Post has chosen not to respond in any fashion to my requests for more detail on its fact checking processes. Given the present atmosphere in which trust in media is in freefall and mainstream outlets like the Post are positioning themselves as the answer to “fake news” it certainly does not advance trust in the media when a newspaper will not even provide the most cursory of insight into how it checks its facts.

As with the Santa Claus story, the Post appears to have run this story without even attempting to perform the most basic of fact checks before publication. The original story noted that there were only two utilities in Vermont and yet the article states that the Post only attempted to contact DHS and does not mention any attempt to contact either of the utilities. Standard journalistic practice would have required that the Post mention that it attempted to reach either utility even if neither responded. The Post did not respond to a request for comment when I asked if it had attempted to reach either utility for comment prior to publication.

Putting this all together, what can we learn from this? The first is that, as with the Santa Claus and PropOrNot stories, the journalism world tends to rely far more on trust than fact checking. When one news outlet runs a story, the rest of the journalism world tends to follow suit, each writing their own version of the story without ever going back to the original sources for verification. In short – once a story enters the journalism world it spreads without further restraint as each outlet assumes that the one before performed the necessary fact checking.

The second is that the news media is overly dependent on government sources. Glenn Greenwald raises the fantastic point that journalists must be more cautious in treating the word of governments as absolute truth. Indeed, a certain fraction of the world’s false and misleading news actually comes from the mouths of government spokespeople. Yet, in the Post’s case, it appears that a government source tipped off the post about a sensational story of Russians hacking the US power grid and instead of reaching out to the utilities themselves or gathering further detail, the Post simply published the story as fed to them by the government officials.

The third is that breaking news is a source of a tremendous amount of false and misleading news as rumors and falsehoods spread like wildfire in the absence of additional information. Top tier newspapers like the Washington Post are supposed to be a bulwark against these falsehoods, by not publishing anything until it has been thoroughly fact checked against multiple sources. Yet, it appears this is not the case – in the rush to be the first to break a story and not be scooped, reporters even at the nation’s most prestigious news outlets will take shortcuts and rush a story out the door. What would have happened in the Post had waited another day or two to collect responses from all involved, including Burlington Electric? It would have avoided publishing false information, but it also likely would have been scooped by another newspaper who wanted to be the first to break the story.

Indeed, “breaking news” is a tremendous problem for mainstream outlets in which they frequently end up propagating “fake news” in their rush to be the first to break a story. In a world beset by false and misleading news, do top tier news outlets have a professional responsibility to step back from breaking stories and only report on them after all details are known and they have had an opportunity to speak with all parties involved and understand more definitively what has happened? Financially this would likely be devastating in a share-first click-first world in which to the victor go the advertising dollars, but it would seem the only way to truly stop “fake news” from spreading.
To summarize:
Fact checking? We don't need any stinking fact checking!
Editing? The fuck is that?
We were wrong? Let's ret-con that shit!
Click-bait headlines? It's all about the click-bait headlines.

The subject here happens to be alleged Russian hacking, but the same type of BS gets run on everything from social & racial issues, police & racial relations, politics & international relations, and pretty much any issue where there's a time premium and an agenda to push. And you wonder why trust in the mainstream media is at an all time low.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Dragon Angel »

This isn't a new problem, but the issue has definitely been exacerbated by the ever more placed importance on fast-paced churning of articles and reports, and the race to the bottom in trying to become a "profitable" news organization. There is even now a widespread belief that doing investigative journalism is somehow wrong, Michael Wolff's claim that journalists are supposed to be mere stenographers for example. An epitome of how false neutrality is pretty much the norm now in the mainstream.

The race for clickbait and breaking news is also financially motivated in the fact that it's becoming more and more difficult to fund a news organization. True investigative journalism is being deprioritized in the mainstream, and as news entities are private and not public, they are only beholden to the market and their shareholders. Small media organizations are also forced to close up their shops, leaving only the mainstream with their relatively astronomical resources.

I'd been watching this happen via friends who happen to be writers, and several whom I respect. The only way, probably, for this inertia to end will be a total financial collapse of the mainstream. The shareholders live in their own bubble, and it is a particularly concrete one. They will run their investments into the ground and only realize their mistakes when it's much too late.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by mr friendly guy »

Saw this on my RT feed today and oh boy, Putin tv is having a field day with this one.

Nice to see that mainstream media has finally figured out what people from countries maligned by Western media have known for years, THEY LIE.

Remember that Simpsons episode where Homer is accused of sexual assault. Homer starts off the episode believing whatever crap news says even though Marge warns him about this. During the course of the episode, the news outlets blatantly edit their story to make Homer look guilty. After its come up that he was innocent, Homer still believes what the news says about OTHER people and proudly says to Marge "I haven't learnt a thing."

What I am worried about, is that the general populace at least of the say the Anglosphere, wouldn't have learnt a damn thing either despite all these examples of mainstream media making shit up. Well aside from we can't trust <insert this news outlet> rather than the lessons of scepticism and how to evaluate information. Because I am afraid people would soon fall for more bullshit when we accuse another country of something nefarious.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by aerius »

mr friendly guy wrote:What I am worried about, is that the general populace at least of the say the Anglosphere, wouldn't have learnt a damn thing either despite all these examples of mainstream media making shit up. Well aside from we can't trust <insert this news outlet> rather than the lessons of scepticism and how to evaluate information. Because I am afraid people would soon fall for more bullshit when we accuse another country of something nefarious.
Man, just look at this board. Every time some white guy shoots someone else or there's a police shooting there's a vocal group of folks on this board who rush out to throw the book at him and pronounce the shooter guilty before the evidence is even in. They just agree & amplify what the media feeds them as long as it fits with their worldview, they never bother to dig into the actual court records, forensics reports, and actual laws involved. The sad part is how many times myself and a few others have gone "wait a minute, let's take a look at the facts here" and just gotten yelled at, called racists, Nazis, and apologists, and yet we were the ones who were proven to be correct every time whereas the folks who were following the narrative and having rage fits were wrong.

Also, this. WaPo gets owned. Hard.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-0 ... -fake-news
Washington Post Admits Its 'Russians Hacked A US Utility' Story Was 'Fake News'

by Tyler Durden
Jan 3, 2017 10:54 AM

Over the weekend we noted that the Washington Post was caught spreading "fake news" about an alleged attempt by "Russian hackers" to take over a Vermont Utility (see "Washington Post Caught Spreading More Fake News About 'Russian Hackers'"). Within hours of reporting that the "Russian hackers" had gained access to the electrical grid, the Burlington Electric Department in Vermont had to issue a statement confirming that the provocative Wapo story simply wasn't true and that a laptop found to be infected with malware was never actually connected to the grid. An embarrassed Wapo was subsequently forced to change it's sensationalized headline and publish a retraction.

Now, as they often do, it appears this Wapo "fake news" rabbit holes gets even deeper. Not only are "federal officials" now confirming that "Russian hackers" never targeted the Vermont electrical grid, but the whole mishap was derived from an employee's attempt to check his Yahoo email account which, as Wapo reports, resulted in his computer connecting to a "suspicious IP address" that is "found elsewhere in the country suggesting the company wasn't being targeted by Russians."

The Post now reports that the Vermont utility hack was just an employee connecting to a flagged IP address... https://t.co/fapgFHt9aQ pic.twitter.com/zIGp0NEXnl

— Eric Geller (@ericgeller) January 3, 2017



Moreover, not only was the malware not linked to a specific attempt of "Russian hackers" to penetrate the U.S. electrical grid, the software in question isn't even linked to the "Grizzly Steppe" group that the Obama administration says is behind the DNC and John Podesta email hacks. Of course, this is a direct contradiction to the opening paragraph of Wapo's original story which directly connected the Vermont "hack" back to "Grizzly Steppe"...apparently with no evidence whatsoever.

U.S. officials are continuing to investigate the laptop. In the course of their investigation, though, they have found on the device a package of software tools commonly used by online criminals to deliver malware. The package, known as Neutrino, does not appear to be connected with Grizzly Steppe, which U.S. officials have identified as the Russian hacking operation. The FBI, which declined to comment, is continuing to investigate how the malware got onto the laptop.

Wapo goes on to point out that the "murkiness of the information" makes it difficult to relay meaningful information to the public about alleged "hackings."

The murkiness of the information underlines the difficulties faced by officials as they try to root out Grizzly Steppe and share with the public their findings on how the operation works. Experts say the situation was made worse by a recent government report, which they described as a genuine effort to share information with the industry but criticized as rushed and prone to causing confusion. Authorities also were leaking information about the utility without having all the facts and before law enforcement officials were able to investigate further.

Here's an idea, how about you simply avoid reporting "murky" information until you have all the facts? But that wouldn't help advance your "Russian hacking" narrative now would it?
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Flagg »

This is a "duh" thread. Well let me clarify: This is a "duh" thread to anyone who knows basic facts about a situation, then reads the national news article where nearly every single one of those basic facts is 100% wrong. As in "not on this planet" wrong.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

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This is why I said mainstream news is responsible for the clickbaity ass sensationalist crap and the outright fake news. They pioneered that shit, they lied, misrepresented, and gave everything a bias to the point such online news sources can get away with printing whatever garbage because there was already so much garbage that people believe that garbage.

Things like this story is why even now I still question whether or not the Russians actually hacked the DNC. Why people far more rational and intelligent then I (like thats a hard thing to achieve) don't believe it, don't believe anything reported by the mainstream. If they reported fire burns people would have to google that to see what Wikipedia says.

Unfortunately I don't think there is too much that can be done. You cannot have any sort of official response, any sort of review board or committee or laws or anything dealing with outright false news without running into free speech problems. Maybe something to do with public good or trust, that they are liable being a public news source for any falsehoods they knowingly print but it would be easy to say they didn't know they made the shit up. Outside organizations maybe like that app designed to list news sites trustworthiness but that doesn't actually do anything directly about fake news, just filters it.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by mr friendly guy »

Here's an idea, how about you simply avoid reporting "murky" information until you have all the facts? But that wouldn't help advance your "Russian hacking" narrative now would it?
That's the problem. There is a rush to report and not fact check. Recently this type of lazy reporting was blown apart by a pro Assad western journalist. Just think about that for a moment. In the interview she simply asked the mainstream media journalist a simple question when he queried how is it her reporting from Aleppo contradicts various other sources they have. She asked, who do you have in Aleppo giving you this information?

The answer was silence. Either
1. The journalist does have sources in Aleppo reporting, but didn't know them, which smacks of incompetence, but not malicious lying. This is the best case scenario.

2. They really don't have sources there, unlike the pro Assad journalist who actually went there. Their sources are therefore second hand, usually from dissident groups. Which is a common tactic mainstream media uses. Find a source, usually a dissident group and then say we could not verify their claims (because you don't have reporters there) and leave it at that.

From the POV of getting knowledge about the situation, you cannot just rely on one source. But it seems like only the Russians are willing to go to the source so to speak to "fact check". If Western media are too lazy to do so, then they have ceded the initiative to those who will. At least in Syria its a war zone so Western media have an excuse. WaPo has no excuse for not being able to do a simple phone call to the utilities in question.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Hey, if fake news proves to be a viable source of income and fake shit is no longer being scrutinized, then everyone even without politicization will follow that route, so from Natural News, soon your I Frakking Love Sciences and Hitler Channels and Discoverers Pioneers of Note will be going on about how alien ghost Nazis vaccinated ancient people with pyramids.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Flagg »

I have a hard time blaming the media itself since they go where the ratings take them and this is just nationalization of what local news has been doing for almost 30 years. I recall such hard hitting stories questioning "Can Your Pets Talk To Angels?" and having even the local humane society not adopting out black cats before Halloween for fear of Satanist ritual sacrifices.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

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Joun_Lord wrote: Things like this story is why even now I still question whether or not the Russians actually hacked the DNC.
I honestly do not know either. I have been following some smaller YouTube channels like Secular Talk and The Jimmy Dore Show, and they have said several times times: "Anonymous sources within the CIA believe....". We are going to accept what anonymous sources believe?

Assange is reported to have said that the Russians were not the source.

I have also read from some of my FB friends that they were inside leaks from the DNC itself, but I cannot find a source for this.

The MSM has been pushing the fake news narrative and Russian hacks like crazy.

At this point, I have no idea. At all.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by General Zod »

Arstechnica did a writeup about the hacking. Frankly the details released in the alphabet agencies PDF was shit and more like a generic outline placeholder detailing the timeline that might include more details in the future. But included very little detail about the hack itself. Plus a cryptographic signature that any 14 year old could have faked.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Simon_Jester »

At this point I am less than certain I trust Wikileaks and Assange's integrity as independent actors. I trusted them several years ago, but being on the run from the US government is the sort of thing that chases people into the arms of other governments.*

I'm very much not surprised that the CIA's PDF doesn't contain actual tidbits of relevant information, because the CIA classifies every goddamn thing, and stuff normally only gets de-classified on a timescale of decades, not weeks. They'd have to bulldoze a lot of regulations

Plus with one of the most vindictive, litigious jackasses in modern American history likely to take the Oval Office in under three weeks, civil servants have to wonder, "if I ride roughshod over the security clearance regs to publish this, even with the approval of elected officials, what's going to happen to me when Trumpolini takes office and decides to punish people he sees as having tried to attack him?"
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Flagg »

I don't trust anyone with an agenda, which basically means I don't trust Wikileaks, Snowden, or any "state news agency". Or corporate news. And frankly, no one else should, either. It's like people who say "I like politician X because I trust them." Why would anyone trust any politician? They lie for a living. That's why we have oversight agencies (or should) and hold regular elections.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Joun_Lord »

Aether wrote:I honestly do not know either. I have been following some smaller YouTube channels like Secular Talk and The Jimmy Dore Show, and they have said several times times: "Anonymous sources within the CIA believe....". We are going to accept what anonymous sources believe?

Assange is reported to have said that the Russians were not the source.

I have also read from some of my FB friends that they were inside leaks from the DNC itself, but I cannot find a source for this.

The MSM has been pushing the fake news narrative and Russian hacks like crazy.

At this point, I have no idea. At all.
Like Flagg I don't trust anyone with an agenda. The CIA and all the other alphabet agencies have an agenda to push, Russia is disliked by the dude in charge, is their enemy. The DNC has an agenda to push, saying the Russians through the election makes it seem like they didn't lose fairly and also throws attention of what exactly the content of what the Russian allegedly hacked. The DNC denying it was an inside leak or done by non-state actors only helps their cause.

Wikileaks and ASSange has an agenda too. Wikileaks rightfully or wrongly has a probable anti-American bent and a possible anti-Hillary bent (rightfully?). It might mesh with their agenda to say it was not the proud and incorruptible Russians who respect privacy and foreign governments but instead it was some American fuckery. It fits their alleged agenda to keep the focus solely on Hillary's failure.

Hell don't believe me if I tried to say what the truth of the situation is, I got an agenda. I kinda liked Bernie and fucking hate Hillary and Trump so I'd love to say Trump told/ordered the Russians to hack Hillary's emails showing she was highly corrupt and stole the DNC om nom nomination from Bernie.

Until something comes out from a somewhat trustworthy source we'll have no idea what really happened and even then there is still going to be doubt. I mean Putin could tomorrow after having a naked mud rasslin' match with Chuck Norris while Steven Seagull squirts them with baby oil hold a press conference and say they definitely hacked the DNC I'd have doubts. Putin lies, has an agenda, likes wrestling men and going shirtless around hairy bears and big sweaty horses.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by mr friendly guy »

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=165772

In this thread I got attacked by saying some of mainstream news bullshit has just as much validity as saying someone is a paedophile using Simon Jester's criteria of lying. That is both are making things up out of thin air, rather than the claim that mainstream media just misinterprets things for an agenda, while only fake news sites make it right out of thin air. Because calling someone a paedophile falsely is worse than those other lies, even though I was talking purely about the truth value of the claims.

Now CNN is forced to apologise to Assange after one of their paid commentators called him a paedophile.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic ... -1.2935083

LOL. Jesus fucking Christ on a pogo stick. The more time that passes, the more confirmation of a) satire is dead and b) critics of the mainstream media are damn right.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Aether »

Joun_Lord wrote:
Aether wrote:I honestly do not know either. I have been following some smaller YouTube channels like Secular Talk and The Jimmy Dore Show, and they have said several times times: "Anonymous sources within the CIA believe....". We are going to accept what anonymous sources believe?

Assange is reported to have said that the Russians were not the source.

I have also read from some of my FB friends that they were inside leaks from the DNC itself, but I cannot find a source for this.

The MSM has been pushing the fake news narrative and Russian hacks like crazy.

At this point, I have no idea. At all.
Like Flagg I don't trust anyone with an agenda. The CIA and all the other alphabet agencies have an agenda to push, Russia is disliked by the dude in charge, is their enemy. The DNC has an agenda to push, saying the Russians through the election makes it seem like they didn't lose fairly and also throws attention of what exactly the content of what the Russian allegedly hacked. The DNC denying it was an inside leak or done by non-state actors only helps their cause.

Wikileaks and ASSange has an agenda too. Wikileaks rightfully or wrongly has a probable anti-American bent and a possible anti-Hillary bent (rightfully?). It might mesh with their agenda to say it was not the proud and incorruptible Russians who respect privacy and foreign governments but instead it was some American fuckery. It fits their alleged agenda to keep the focus solely on Hillary's failure.

Hell don't believe me if I tried to say what the truth of the situation is, I got an agenda. I kinda liked Bernie and fucking hate Hillary and Trump so I'd love to say Trump told/ordered the Russians to hack Hillary's emails showing she was highly corrupt and stole the DNC om nom nomination from Bernie.

Until something comes out from a somewhat trustworthy source we'll have no idea what really happened and even then there is still going to be doubt. I mean Putin could tomorrow after having a naked mud rasslin' match with Chuck Norris while Steven Seagull squirts them with baby oil hold a press conference and say they definitely hacked the DNC I'd have doubts. Putin lies, has an agenda, likes wrestling men and going shirtless around hairy bears and big sweaty horses.
Well, I am not all that concerned about an agenda per se. Depending on what your bias/agenda (we all have them) is then you may decide to downplay certain aspects or declare others as inconsequential, but still report the fucking facts. The problem, as I see it, is that facts are automatically ignored and not reported on because of one's bias/agenda.

In short, facts first and then you can offer your op-ed instead it's agenda first and cherry pick facts to fit it.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Flagg »

mr friendly guy wrote:http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=165772

In this thread I got attacked by saying some of mainstream news bullshit has just as much validity as saying someone is a paedophile using Simon Jester's criteria of lying. That is both are making things up out of thin air, rather than the claim that mainstream media just misinterprets things for an agenda, while only fake news sites make it right out of thin air. Because calling someone a paedophile falsely is worse than those other lies, even though I was talking purely about the truth value of the claims.

Now CNN is forced to apologise to Assange after one of their paid commentators called him a paedophile.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic ... -1.2935083

LOL. Jesus fucking Christ on a pogo stick. The more time that passes, the more confirmation of a) satire is dead and b) critics of the mainstream media are damn right.
That's just fucking stupid. Reporting on claims made by people who may be lying while making it clear that they are allegations and reporting on claims by people who may be lying by stating them as facts are 2 very different things and it happens every day. We would literally have zero reporting on crimes and the justice system if that were not the case.

For instance, when reporting the case of Jared Fogle of former fatass Subway fame they can call him a pedophile because he is a convicted child pornographer, while reporting on not dead soon enough celebrity Michael Jackson they have to call him an alleged pedophile because the victims he didn't pay off were ignored by stupid jurors.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Joun_Lord »

Aether wrote:Well, I am not all that concerned about an agenda per se. Depending on what your bias/agenda (we all have them) is then you may decide to downplay certain aspects or declare others as inconsequential, but still report the fucking facts. The problem, as I see it, is that facts are automatically ignored and not reported on because of one's bias/agenda.

In short, facts first and then you can offer your op-ed instead it's agenda first and cherry pick facts to fit it.
The problem is I think the fact bias is the first step on the road to making shit up. The false narratives, the extremely biased reporting, the outright lies didn't happen overnight. Some news reporters didn't just say "imma gonna lie my ass off".

When the news starting having biases injected in there was probably first the effort to downplay certain things, no lies or anything just maybe not giving equal time to things against their bias. After that they might have decided to not even report the facts they didn't like or distort them, still not lying but reporting things from a certain point of view or just not reporting some things. Probably continued on from there to trying to shape the narrative themselves, not just report on the facts but completely reshape them to fit their spin, anything that is reported is put through a filter to play into the narrative they are pushing, no longer reporting the news but story telling using newsworthy events. And it probably ended with just lying about some things, misrepresenting or editing real things, completely losing touch with the reality.

Now I doubt that was the actual chain of how things played out but its an illustration in my own 2nd grade blocky horrible method of illustration as to how things could have gotten the way they are now. It was baby steps to what we have now, it was people putting more and more of their bias into reporting the news until their bias completely took over, until the news became fiction.

Now one cannot completely blame the various news companies. They go where the money is, where the views are. They would not be reporting in a highly agenda driven manner if people didn't want that, if people didn't clamor to just have an echo chamber telling them exactly what they want to hear. Fox News wouldn't have their tagline of "fair and balanced" be used ironically and essentially say Barack HUSSEIN Obama is mega-Hitler if their viewers didn't want them to report thing in a highly biased manner, Huffington Post wouldn't blame white people for all the world's ills and essentially say Donald Trump is mega-Hitler if it readers didn't want to read that.

People don't want facts, they want their worldviews confirmed.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Channel72 »

Joun_Lord wrote:People don't want facts, they want their worldviews confirmed.
Yeah, and a few years ago I would have claimed this kind of tribalism was much more toxic on the right side of the political spectrum, but now I'm more inclined to wander into "false equivalency" territory and just claim that the left and right have almost equally harmful biases that simply manifest in different forms.

The left tends to be biased towards a narrative where like 99% of the world's problems are the result of inequality, racism, sexism, or some manifestation of a majority population oppressing a minority. So therefore Steve Bannon is not simply a stupid asshole, he's also anti-Semitic. (Hint: he's not.)

The right, on the other hand, tends to favor a narrative where a small "elite" minority is secretly oppressing the "good-hearted" majority. This mostly manifests in the form of completely lame shit like conspiracy theories involving incoherent collaborations between various "others" (Muslims, Mexicans, gays, gay Mexicans?, etc.) and some evil cabal of "global elites". (Don't forget to namedrop George Soros for extra points.) Right-wingers seem to believe that all of the world's problems are the result of some group of "elites" who hyper-competently manipulate basically everything for the sake of some nebulous objective to control everything.

Yeah, it's a simplification, but whatever.

Statistically, since liberals tend to be more educated and probably more cosmopolitan (citation needed probably but fuck you), the "narratives" they insist on revolve more around empathy, whereas right-wing narratives revolve more around paranoia and resentment. I realize that sounds like I'm saying the right is worse, but at this point it's pretty difficult to actually quantify which side is doing more long-term damage.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Have you ever gone and read old newspapers from, say, the 60s? Or pre-radio/television? This is not really a new problem. Despite the romantic mythology journalists like to wrap around their profession, news media has always had a fairly low signal-to-noise ratio.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Joun_Lord »

Shitty journalism is defintely nothing new. One needs only look at shit like William Randolph Hearst doing pretty much anything though trying to intimidate Orson Welles with threats of blackmail, smear jobs in his papers, and him directing FBI investigations at him and helping start the Spanish American War both take the cake. Hearst was part of what is know as Yellow Journalism. Yellow Journalism was characterized as journalism with little or no legitimate facts but instead uses attention grabbing headlines and eye catching illustrations to sale papers. They were known for scare mongering headlines, faked or misrepresented facts, the usage of sensationalist images or drawings, using experts with questionable credentials or possibly even made up to back their stories, and the attitude that money trumps everything.

Its easy to see a shitton of similarities to todays mainstream news and certainly to fake news. They use many of the same tactics Hearst and Pulitzer in the 1890s.

These days however it is possibly different from the sheer deluge directed at people. Its not just some 2 cent newspaper printing garbage, maybe some shit on the radio or tv later on, its constant in your face garbage 24 7 from every source. We also have far more ways of figuring out when news is garbage, allowing people far more quickly and easily to see through the lies. In olden days you believed what was printed, you had no real way of finding out whether or not something was true. Now you just google that shit and can usually, usually, find something debunking it. Which doesn't help always considering while the tools are available to debunk fake news some don't take advantage of them either through inaction or inability. The sheer amount of news being directed towards someone they could spend a long time trying to debunk everything, too much time for many, and thats if they even know to try to find the truth such as it is.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Aether »

Joun_Lord wrote:
Aether wrote:Well, I am not all that concerned about an agenda per se. Depending on what your bias/agenda (we all have them) is then you may decide to downplay certain aspects or declare others as inconsequential, but still report the fucking facts. The problem, as I see it, is that facts are automatically ignored and not reported on because of one's bias/agenda.

In short, facts first and then you can offer your op-ed instead it's agenda first and cherry pick facts to fit it.
When the news starting having biases injected in there was probably first the effort to downplay certain things, no lies or anything just maybe not giving equal time to things against their bias. After that they might have decided to not even report the facts they didn't like or distort them, still not lying but reporting things from a certain point of view or just not reporting some things.
I agree that once you allow your bias to filter the facts where one is not reporting on them then problems begin. I would be hesitant to say that facts can be distorted because of one's bias. That's a little too negative of a connotation for me, but certainly facts may be interpreted differently depending on your worldview. Even when you allow discussion on MSM outlets, you have a 10 minute panel of people shouting over each other. "Winning" with a snide comment is not news. It's not journalism.
Now one cannot completely blame the various news companies. They go where the money is, where the views are. They would not be reporting in a highly agenda driven manner if people didn't want that, if people didn't clamor to just have an echo chamber telling them exactly what they want to hear. Fox News wouldn't have their tagline of "fair and balanced" be used ironically and essentially say Barack HUSSEIN Obama is mega-Hitler if their viewers didn't want them to report thing in a highly biased manner, Huffington Post wouldn't blame white people for all the world's ills and essentially say Donald Trump is mega-Hitler if it readers didn't want to read that.

People don't want facts, they want their worldviews confirmed.
To throw some controversy in this thread, yes. People want to have their world views confirmed. One of which that the US is awash in white racism. When the torture of a special needs kid by 4 other teens in Chicago didn't get picked up by the MSM; instead, by alt-right and smaller independent conservative news outlets (Drudge Report, Louder with Crowder, InfoWars (LOL), Brietbart) it was poo-pooed; meaning the language of the article titles did not mention that it was a white, special needs kid tortured (beaten, forced to drink toilet water, knife cutting of the scalp) by 4 black teenagers yelling "fuck white people!" and "fuck Donald Tump" while live-streaming on Facebook. While if the reverse was true there is no doubt in my mind that the MSM would certainly have clickbait titles, "White racists torture black, special needs child."

Now I am not saying that articles themselves would not allude to or mention the races of the perpetrators, but the language used in titles to "get those clicks!" is would certainly be different depending on the race of the perpetrator.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by General Zod »

Aether wrote:While if the reverse was true there is no doubt in my mind that the MSM would certainly have clickbait titles, "White racists torture black, special needs child."
There was a group of frat boys that recently sodomized and tortured their black teammate with a coat-hanger. They got off with probation. What kind of sentence do you think these four black kids are going to get?

I'm not saying they shouldn't have the book thrown at them, I'm saying that the white frat boys should have had it thrown at them too.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Tribble »

To throw some controversy in this thread, yes. People want to have their world views confirmed. One of which that the US is awash in white racism. When the torture of a special needs kid by 4 other teens in Chicago didn't get picked up by the MSM; instead, by alt-right and smaller independent conservative news outlets (Drudge Report, Louder with Crowder, InfoWars (LOL), Brietbart) it was poo-pooed; meaning the language of the article titles did not mention that it was a white, special needs kid tortured (beaten, forced to drink toilet water, knife cutting of the scalp) by 4 black teenagers yelling "fuck white people!" and "fuck Donald Tump" while live-streaming on Facebook. While if the reverse was true there is no doubt in my mind that the MSM would certainly have clickbait titles, "White racists torture black, special needs child."

Now I am not saying that articles themselves would not allude to or mention the races of the perpetrators, but the language used in titles to "get those clicks!" is would certainly be different depending on the race of the perpetrator.
Some would argue that incident was not racist. That only whites can be racist in the USA as they have the power of the state to support them. Discriminatory? Sure. Hate crime? Certainly. But Racist? Perhaps not, if you go along that line of thinking.

Still not good for news outlets like MSN to dimiss the issue until called out on it, of course.
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Re: Mainstream news is often dog shit

Post by Joun_Lord »

Aether wrote:I agree that once you allow your bias to filter the facts where one is not reporting on them then problems begin. I would be hesitant to say that facts can be distorted because of one's bias. That's a little too negative of a connotation for me, but certainly facts may be interpreted differently depending on your worldview. Even when you allow discussion on MSM outlets, you have a 10 minute panel of people shouting over each other. "Winning" with a snide comment is not news. It's not journalism.
Having a different interpretation of events because of ones bias is possibly different then attempting to alter events to fit ones bias. To put an example, say some Christians and Atheists were having counter protests and it got violent. Because of my own biases being a damn dirty satan worshiping religion hating Atheist and as someone who has had problems with Christians I might assume the Christians were the ones who started it, I might be more inclined to believe the Atheist side. That would be incredibly shitty of me to do so, to be a biased piece of shit who thinks an entire group is more likely to commit violence because I've been on the receiving end of some violence by their kind.

The media doing so is worse then I some random cockknobbler but not as bad as things can be by them. MSNBC is going to interpret that situation differently from Fox but its not so much a problem as long as the facts are reported, its still incredibly shitty though and can lead to facts being distorted. Because Fox "News" is more right wing and pro-religion (well pro-Christian atleast) they might outright say it was an attack by militant atheists on peaceful Christians exercising their religious rights even without any evidence, maybe dress it up with plenty of "possible" and "alleged". MSNC being more left wing might say it was violent Christian extremists attacking peaceful Atheists.

The same event but completely altered by either side. Which is why I think injected bias is such a bad thing.
To throw some controversy in this thread, yes. People want to have their world views confirmed. One of which that the US is awash in white racism. When the torture of a special needs kid by 4 other teens in Chicago didn't get picked up by the MSM; instead, by alt-right and smaller independent conservative news outlets (Drudge Report, Louder with Crowder, InfoWars (LOL), Brietbart) it was poo-pooed; meaning the language of the article titles did not mention that it was a white, special needs kid tortured (beaten, forced to drink toilet water, knife cutting of the scalp) by 4 black teenagers yelling "fuck white people!" and "fuck Donald Tump" while live-streaming on Facebook. While if the reverse was true there is no doubt in my mind that the MSM would certainly have clickbait titles, "White racists torture black, special needs child."

Now I am not saying that articles themselves would not allude to or mention the races of the perpetrators, but the language used in titles to "get those clicks!" is would certainly be different depending on the race of the perpetrator.
Honestly I think the whole "MSM never reports on reverse racism" thing might have some truth but is considerably overblown. Sure they might not harp on any instance of black on white violence but I'm sure they don't do so for all white on black. The fact that the mainstream is reporting this attack, even if one can argue with less zeal then they might if the situation was reversed, they are still reporting on it thus destroying the argument they wouldn't, because they are.

Now I do wonder if they picked up the story as fast as they should of or what sort of interpretation of the events they might be trying to pedal. I'll admit though, I'm not going to look. This situation has got me steaming, not because of the race thing but because of 4 people torturing a mentally ill person. Torturing someone is bad enough, picking on someone who is unable to fight back, already has emotional and mental problems is a extra special level of fuckedupness.
Tribble wrote:Some would argue that incident was not racist. That only whites can be racist in the USA as they have the power of the state to support them. Discriminatory? Sure. Hate crime? Certainly. But Racist? Perhaps not, if you go along that line of thinking.

Still not good for news outlets like MSN to dimiss the issue until called out on it, of course.
Some people would argue the F-word means annoying person, the N-word means friend and men cannot be raped. Those people are flipping stupid. Racism by all definitions save the stupid internet made up definition does not have some power societal element, nor does sexism. I think its best to use the accepted definition.
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