Duterte to suspend war on drugs

[mr friendly guy]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38793008

Philippines to suspend drug war to clean up 'corrupt' police
30 January 2017

Philippine police are suspending their controversial war on drugs until after the "corrupt" police force has been "cleansed".
Police Chief Ronald dela Rosa said on Monday that anti-drug units would be dissolved.
It comes after the murder of a South Korean businessman inside police headquarters. He had been kidnapped and killed by anti-drug police.
More than 7,000 people have been killed since the crackdown on drugs began.
The death toll and President Rodrigo Duterte's hardline stance against drugs have attracted intense criticism from human rights groups and Western countries, although the president continues to enjoy a high level of support among Filipinos.
Speaking on Monday, Mr Dela Rosa said Mr Duterte "told us to clean the organisation first".
"We will cleanse our ranks... then maybe after that, we can resume our war on drugs."

Mr Duterte has made tackling drug use in the Philippines a central part of his presidency.
He had initially promised to eradicate the problem by December, then extended the deadline to March this year.
But he told reporters at a press conference late on Sunday: "I will extend it to the last day of my term... March no longer applies." Mr Duterte's term ends in 2022.
He said he had underestimated the depth of the drug problem.
Jonathan Head, South East Asia correspondent, BBC News: Police too tainted
For eight months President Duterte has been unrepentant as the death toll from his drug war has risen. He has repeatedly promised to support, even pardon, any police officers accused of unlawful killing, and been unmoved even by the clear evidence of police involvement in the drug trade, and the murder of important drug suspects in police custody.
But the shocking murder of South Korean businessman Jee Ick-joo last October has forced Mr Duterte to acknowledge that the Philippines National Police are too tainted to continue running the anti-drugs campaign.
Mr Duterte now accuses the police force of being "corrupt to the core". He has ordered all tainted officers to be sent to front-line duty in the conflict-wracked southern Philippines.
Even if this happens, though, it will not necessarily bring the drug killings to an end. More than 4,000 of the deaths are blamed on unidentified hit squads, although many of those are believed to be run by the police. And the president's promise to extend the anti-drug campaign to the end of his term of office suggests he may try to revive it once the fuss about the murdered South Korean dies down.
Senator Leila De Lima, Mr Duterte's most vocal critic, said the president and the police chief "should categorically give the order to end the killings".
She said the dismantling of the police anti-narcotics operation meant "they are aware that the very men involved in anti-drug operations... are involved in illegal activities under the guise of the so-called war on drugs," she told ANC television.
Leila de Lima: The woman who dares to defy Duterte
'Corrupt to the core'
Mr Duterte also railed against the police force on Sunday and vowed to "cleanse" it, in response to the killing of Jee Ick-joo.

Jee Ick-joo was seized from his home in Angeles city, near Manila, under the pretence of a drug raid, the Department of Justice said. After strangling him, his killers pretended he was still alive in order to collect a ransom from his family.
"You policemen are the most corrupt. You are corrupt to the core. It's in your system," Mr Duterte said, adding that he thought up to 40% of policemen were used to corruption.
Mr Duterte had sanctioned extra-judicial killings previously, saying he would pardon policemen who kill criminals and civilians in the line of duty.
"When I said I'll protect the police, I'll protect the police. But I won't protect lying," he said.

Hands up who predicted his crusade would cost innocent lives when you know, they don't actually have a trial. Although I didn't predict they would fuck up so early on. I mean killing a SK businessman. Its not like he doesn't kind of stand out among the locals.

Now lets see how Duterte deals with the corrupt cops. My money is that he pushes them out of a helicopter. I was being facetious if that wasn't obvious.

[Zinegata]

*rolls eyes*

Again, people really need to stop pretending that Duterte's "War on Drugs"' or the new "War on Corrupt Cops" was anything new.

The Philippine National Police had always been a very corrupt and mercenary organization; often being little more than a goon squad for the local government leader. Extra-judicial killings were common even before Duterte. The recent "huge" increase in killings may in fact be little more than the media finally paying attention to the problem, and people reclassifying unsolved homicides (often "unsoled" because they were perpetrated by the police) as "politically motivated drug war killings".

And the kidnapping of a South Korean businessman and accidentally killing him? Jesus Christ that's been a modus operandi of the PNP since the fucking 90s. Back then they preferred kidnapping kids of Filipino-Chinese citizens, until said citizens started fighting back through both political pressure and hiring people to shoot back.

Oh, and mocking the government for all the killings without trials? Have you by chance noticed the whole Maguindanao massacre thing a couple of years ago where dozens of journalists were murdered, the perpetrators were known, and yet not a single person has yet to be convicted (even though the previous administration had six years and absolutely no political reason not to push for a conviction)?

That's why there's no panic in the street of the Philippines, only indifferent shrugs. This is an old and long-existing problem. That foreigners have suddenly decided to make a big deal out of it now - when there has been substantial progress made against such corruption in the previous administration and it's actually by and large holding in spite of Duterte running his mouth around like an idiot - seems to be to be little more than projecting the much bigger problem of having a lunatic running the supposedly Free World and trampling over all of your supposedly invincible institutions.

[Flagg]

I know my sister in law (she's from the Philippines) was saying the whole thing was being overblown by the press, but since she's in Kuwait with my moron Trumpist half-brother I'm more inclined to listen to someone like Shroom.

[mr friendly guy]

I am aware the Philippines was corrupt, but not those specific examples Zinegata, no.

Although I am not sure how the fact that the Philippines has been massively corrupt for sometime invalidates my point. I mean Duterte may have been able to get away with it when targeting locals, but killing a foreign national is always a bit of a problem, not to mention politically embarrassing, ignoring the moral dimension for a moment.

[Zinegata]

I am aware the Philippines was corrupt, but not those specific examples Zinegata, no.

Although I am not sure how the fact that the Philippines has been massively corrupt for sometime invalidates my point. I mean Duterte may have been able to get away with it when targeting locals, but killing a foreign national is always a bit of a problem, not to mention politically embarrassing, ignoring the moral dimension for a moment.

It invalidates your point because as with most foreigners trying to comment on the Philippine political situation you're too busy gloating about how all the problems lies with Du30 while ignoring that the problem goes way further down the damn rabbit hole:

For instance, kidnapping of Filipino-Chinese was already a thing back in 1996:

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/17/world ... pines.html

Still a thing in 2014, with the Obama-like Aquino administration:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/641136/sca ... new-abroad

And still a fucking thing in 2016 under Du30:

http://news.abs-cbn.com/focus/11/07/16/ ... es-in-2016

One thing in common with all of that? Nobody got caught for the kidnappings. Nobody got thrown in jail except for some small fish scapegoats. The kidnapping ring is alive and well.

So why would anyone truly familiar with the situation be surprised that a South Korean eventually ended up getting kidnapped instead of a Filipino-Chinese or a Chinese national? Why would anyone familiar with the situation think Du30 is behind it when it's been going on for twenty fucking years? The answer, again, is because most of the people commenting here about the Philippine situation are just a bunch of ignorant foreigners who don't realize that the Philippine judiciary and police force are broken and corrupt down to the lowest level.

Worse, as with the other thread, you're so busy blaming Du30 that you don't realize that you're not helping. You're just projecting your feelings on us over the much bigger problem of having a mad man in the White House.

Du30 is not dangerous because he has an exceptionally foul mouth. Most of our politicians are sexist and nepotistic pigs with foul mouths to begin with. People have already forgotten we had a drunken womanizer (and a former action star) for a president back in 1998!

The real problem is that Du30 is turning into a lightning rod that attracts all criticisms while allowing the real criminals to go unmolested (not to mention it's causing real problems to remain unresolved). Du30 may very well be gone before the year ends (he's old and possibly with a terminal disease) but the kidnapping and police killings won't stop after he's gone because all the corrupt cops doing the actual killing and kidnapping will still be around because nobody went after them in favor of Du30 venting.

In short, blaming the president may make you feel better and superior, but it doesn't actually solve the root of the problem. It's just the same sort of scapegoat escapism that now characterizes American politics - "The president/politicians alone are at fault! The society is always good and pure!".

[mr friendly guy]

It invalidates your point because as with most foreigners trying to comment on the Philippine political situation you're too busy gloating about how all the problems lies with Du30 while ignoring that the problem goes way further down the damn rabbit hole:

I can't speak for others, but nowhere did I comment either way whether this was a purely Duterte phenomena or something more instrinsic to the Philippine political structure. I did comment though that targeting a foreign national constitutes a fuck up. Do you disagree with that assessment? I also commented that without trials, they are likely to kill innocents, something which Duterte isn't disputing with this killing of a SK national. Do you dispute the 2nd claim?

Now you might not dispute those facts per se, but don't like me gloating instead. I will point out this board's motto includes mocking stupid people. That includes Duterte, and there are other messageboards if you don't like mocking stupid people.

For instance, kidnapping of Filipino-Chinese was already a thing back in 1996:

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/17/world ... pines.html

Still a thing in 2014, with the Obama-like Aquino administration:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/641136/sca ... new-abroad

And still a fucking thing in 2016 under Du30:

http://news.abs-cbn.com/focus/11/07/16/ ... es-in-2016

So these are Filipino citizens of Chinese descent are they not? These are the Philippines own citizens. They are treated poorly, however my point is that if they targeted foreign nationals it would be a metaphorical different kettle of fish and likely cause problems for the administration. Contrast to the response when Chinese nationals actually were targeted by the a member of the Philippine National police in 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila_hostage_crisis

The Philippine government couldn't sweep it completely under the rug, not with China making diplomatic noises. Now if the victims were not PRC citizens, do you think the PRC would give a shit beyond the token we sympathise with victims blah blah blah?

One thing in common with all of that? Nobody got caught for the kidnappings. Nobody got thrown in jail except for some small fish scapegoats. The kidnapping ring is alive and well.

I will remember this for next time. I will point out again, I never claimed all these problems started with Duterte, however what he does is itself deserving of scrutiny and mockery.

So why would anyone truly familiar with the situation be surprised that a South Korean eventually ended up getting kidnapped instead of a Filipino-Chinese or a Chinese national? Why would anyone familiar with the situation think Du30 is behind it when it's been going on for twenty fucking years? The answer, again, is because most of the people commenting here about the Philippine situation are just a bunch of ignorant foreigners who don't realize that the Philippine judiciary and police force are broken and corrupt down to the lowest level.

Well because when it happens to a foreign national, their government tends to make noise and causes more problems for the Philippine government. Witnessed Aquino trying to make amends during the Manila hostage crisis. Witness how Duterte has to at least appear to make changes to his police force, which if anything will slow things down a bit.

Worse, as with the other thread, you're so busy blaming Du30 that you don't realize that you're not helping. You're just projecting your feelings on us over the much bigger problem of having a mad man in the White House.

Ok. I am actually not trying to help you guys. I just making fun of him. I do sympathise that you have to deal with this sheenanigans, but I don't for one moment believe a few threads on a board dedicated to Star Wars vs Star Trek is going to help the Philippines political situation. I have no idea why you would think I believe that. Especially since as a non citizen to the Philippines, I can't exactly vote for a politician who will want to change things.

Du30 is not dangerous because he has an exceptionally foul mouth. Most of our politicians are sexist and nepotistic pigs with foul mouths to begin with. People have already forgotten we had a drunken womanizer (and a former action star) for a president back in 1998!

Of course he is not dangerous purely because of a foul mouth. He is however amusing. He is dangerous though, if he did do what he claimed he has done.

The real problem is that Du30 is turning into a lightning rod that attracts all criticisms while allowing the real criminals to go unmolested (not to mention it's causing real problems to remain unresolved). Du30 may very well be gone before the year ends (he's old and possibly with a terminal disease) but the kidnapping and police killings won't stop after he's gone because all the corrupt cops doing the actual killing and kidnapping will still be around because nobody went after them in favor of Du30 venting.

Fair enough about the killings not stopping because he is gone.

In short, blaming the president may make you feel better and superior, but it doesn't actually solve the root of the problem. It's just the same sort of scapegoat escapism that now characterizes American politics - "The president/politicians alone are at fault! The society is always good and pure!".

Er no, I don't give society a free pass. I am always of the opinion that in a democracy one seldom gets the leader you need, but always the one you deserve. Just as when we made fun of Bush we didn't lose sight of the fact that people voted him in.

This might actually come as a shock to you, but I think Duterte is most probably better at International affairs than his predecessor, but that won't stop me making fun of his stupid domestic policies.

[Shroom Man 777]

Duterte's still pretty lousy, as is Bato (Duts' preposterous chief of police), and they should still be criticized - with awareness of the pre-existing problems that people have railed against for forever - because... well, they're being lousy. The pre-existing nature of the problem shouldn't prevent this criticism, it should add the perspective that it is definitely much worse than merely Duterte. He's not helping, he's adding to it though.

I mean, the whole "the problem is pre-existing!" could have been used on criticism on Aquino, or Arroyo or Estrada. I could imagine, if we had SDN in the 90s, people would be going "Holy crap Estrada is terrible!" and the response of "but it's a pre-existing societal problem, we've previously had Marcos rule for decades and plunder billions from our country!" is factually true but it doesn't refute the terribleness of Estrada.

Same here.

I mean, they're shits and they should be held accountable for that. No one is ignoring the larger scale of the problem just because their current statements focus on one particular problem. That's fallacious "what-about-ism." It's like, there are people who are decrying the madman in the White House who have previously decried longstanding societal problems over there and who have stated that the lack of genuine progress and reform might lead to something like the current travesty...

Kind of like how in the Philippines, regionalistic misgivings and gripes were the seeds of this - a lot of us hoped that the seeds would germinate into some genuine grassroots egalitarian movement and not a deranged potty-mouthed nut... but we saw the longstanding dissatisfaction and we knew that something had to give. It's just a massive disappointment that it led to this... but it's not that surprising. It's both unsurprising yet unreal. Somehow, someway.

[Shroom Man 777]

And yes, the whole kidnap for ransom thing has been here for forever and has led to generations of ethnic Chinese developing some degree of detachment from mainstream society due to parental panics over "you'll get kidnapped! stay inside!" and that does not help in the societal assimilation of a demographic that's already partially isolated due to material and sociocultural disparities, privileges, phobias/neuroses and freaking Slytherin-style blood-purity tendencies (sure this is waning recently... but there WAS and still is racism...).

But this is still no small thing. This isn't just rogue cops doing shit in some far flung shithole where they can do all sorts of things due to minimal oversight or because they are doing it in hiding. They did their kidnapping in the national HQ. That's preposterous. I'm not sure what the details were of previous and historic kidnapping cases... but this detail is something else. It's the freaking HQ of the national police, that changes our understanding and perception of these kidnapping cases.

[K. A. Pital]

But this is still no small thing. This isn't just rogue cops doing shit in some far flung shithole where they can do all sorts of things due to minimal oversight or because they are doing it in hiding. They did their kidnapping in the national HQ. That's preposterous. I'm not sure what the details were of previous and historic kidnapping cases... but this detail is something else. It's the freaking HQ of the national police, that changes our understanding and perception of these kidnapping cases.

Yeah. It is one thing when it's some "deranged local cops" and a different thing when it is a police HQ in a prominent city or in the capital. The rot of corruption is too obvious once it starts happening in prominent places.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah. It is one thing when it's some "deranged local cops" and a different thing when it is a police HQ in a prominent city or in the capital. The rot of corruption is too obvious once it starts happening in prominent places.

The problem's been going on for forever and even the current most outspoken and credible critic (Senator Lacson) of the botched war on drugs was in the past accused of killings and his law enforcement career began during the Martial Law and he was linked to the disappearance of a priest.

But still, while the criminality of the police has been going on for forever, and sure the sheer degree of it was obvious, nonetheless the HOW of it, the details, specifics, was still left unknown or unseen. So while we can imagine a lot of the cops including the higher ups are in the know, it's not explicitly stated. There is still a zone of "the unknown" so one can still imagine, maybe it's just a case of "a lot of bad apples" but bad apples nonetheless, caused by the sheer disorganization, pisspoor management, etc... and that's not exactly the same as something that just happens in the freaking national HQ of the police. One can now imagine a greater degree of organization.

I mean, hypothetically there are hundreds of kidnapper cops. It's still a different thing if they were A.) doing their things in random sheds, alleyways or garages in some shady place vs. B.) the kidnappings and killings occurring in the national HQ.

[Shroom Man 777]

I think the specifics of this current campaign is worse than the usual shitshow of our police force.

And... unlike in previous administrations, all over the country local police departments are receiving lists from "a higher office" containing supposed suspected drug personalities and the local departments then tell these people to report to the police station and sign forms admitting their guilt and promising to reform. If not, then supposedly said "higher office" will take care of the matter. Being named in the list pretty much automatically means you are guilty of being involved in drugs, but there is no prior process of determining how one got into that list and there's no way to appeal or contest being named in that list.

Local lawyers don't even know what these lists really are or how they work! Legally speaking, these lists came out of nowhere.

All the local cops say is that the "higher office" will take care of things.

MANILA, Philippines – “Pressures from the top” and “financial incentives” have created an “informal economy of death” to drive police killings in the Philippines’ war on drugs, according to an Amnesty International report.

“This is not a war on drugs, but a war on the poor. Often on the flimsiest of evidence, people accused of using or selling drugs are being killed for cash in an economy of murder,” said Tirana Hassan, Amnesty International’s Crisis Response Director.

Hassan added: “Under President [Rodrigo] Duterte’s rule, the national police are breaking laws they are supposed to uphold while profiting from the murder of impoverished people the government was supposed to uplift. The same streets Duterte vowed to rid of crime are now filled with bodies of people illegally killed by his own police.”

On Wednesday, February 1, Amnesty released its report titled, "If you are poor you are killed”: Extrajudicial Executions in the Philippines’ “War on Drugs.”

It came out two days after the Philippine National Police (PNP) were ordered to pull out of the drug war because of corruption within its ranks.

Duterte’s war on drugs enjoys popular support but has been harshly criticized for its high death toll. Since July 2016, police have tallied more than 7,000 deaths in the war on drugs. More than 2,000 have been attributed to police operations but the bulk are vigilante-style killings with possible links to illegal drugs. The PNP calls these cases “deaths under investigation.” (IN NUMBERS: The Philippines' 'war on drugs')

“Acting on instructions from the very top of government, the Philippines police have killed and paid others to kill thousands of alleged drug offenders in a wave of extrajudicial executions that may amount to crimes against humanity,” the international human rights organization said in its report.

Police have long been plagued by allegations of resorting to extrajudicial killings in the name of the drug war, a claim PNP chief Ronald dela Rosa has long denied. The PNP chief, who was once police chief in Davao when Duterte was mayor, insisted that they presumed regularity in all police operations.

Dela Rosa himself admitted that the presumption could no longer be made after a South Korean businessman was kidnapped and killed, allegedly by police who used the drug war as a smokescreen.

Paid to kill

In a release to media, Amnesty said its report documents "how the police, working from unverified lists of people allegedly using or selling drugs, stormed into homes and shot dead unarmed people, including those prepared to surrender."

The report documented 33 cases involving 59 deaths. According to Amnesty International, researchers spoke to 110 people from Luzon, Visayas, and Mindanao “detailing extrajudicial executions in 20 cities across the archipelago.”

Field research was done from November to December 2016.

“The organisation also examined documents, including police reports,” said Amnesty.

According to a cop with the rank of Senior Police Officer 1, police were being paid between P8,000 (US$161) to P15,000 (US$302) per kill. The payment supposedly came in cash from “headquarters.”

Police used the term “encounter” – implying that drug personalities fought back – to mask extrajudicial killings as legitimate operations, the report said, quoting the same cop.

“We’re paid in cash, secretly, by headquarters…There’s no incentive for arresting. We’re not paid anything,” the report quoted the policeman, who has served in the PNP for over a decade, as saying. The cop is a member of one of Metro Manila’s anti-illegal drugs units. The Anti-Illegal Drugs Group (AIDG) has since been ordered dissolved by Duterte.

As a result of the cash incentive, said the cop, “it never happens that there’s a shootout and no one is killed.”

“Nanlaban (Fought back)” is the term most police officers use when asked why a drug suspect was gunned down.

Police even made deals with funeral parlors, Amnesty found, getting cash for every dead body. Cops also supposedly stole from the homes of their victims.

“The police are behaving like the criminal underworld that they are supposed to be enforcing the law against, by carrying out extrajudicial executions disguised as unknown killers and ‘contracting out’ killings,” said Amnesty.

Alarming crisis

Hassan said the situation in the Philippines “is a crisis the entire world should be alarmed by.”

“We are calling on the government, from President Duterte down, to order an immediate halt to all extrajudicial executions. We are also calling on the Philippines Department of Justice to investigate and prosecute anyone involved in these killings, regardless of their rank or status in the police or government,” she said.

But should the Philippine government prove unresponsive, Hassan said the international community should turn to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court "to carry out a preliminary examination into these killings, including the involvement of officials at the very top of the government.”

Duterte has been criticized in the past for his often flamboyant pronouncements when talking about drug suspects. Dela Rosa has also gotten into hot water for his public pronouncements, particularly when he encouraged “surrendered” drug users to burn the houses of known drug lords.

A crackdown on illegal drugs was among Duterte’s promises when he ran for president in the 2016 elections.

By law, it’s the Philippine Drug Enforcement Agency (PDEA) that is the lead government body in all efforts against illegal drugs. But under Duterte drug war, the PNP turned into the de facto lead agency – and face – of all efforts.

In a late-night press conference in Malacañang Sunday evening, January 29, Duterte said a huge chunk of police were corrupt. Now that the 160,000-strong PNP is barred from all anti-illegal drugs operations, the war on drugs will be spearheaded by PDEA.

[Zinegata]

I can't speak for others, but nowhere did I comment either way whether this was a purely Duterte phenomena or something more instrinsic to the Philippine political structure. I did comment though that targeting a foreign national constitutes a fuck up. Do you disagree with that assessment? I also commented that without trials, they are likely to kill innocents, something which Duterte isn't disputing with this killing of a SK national. Do you dispute the 2nd claim?

Let me explain things more clearly for you:

They didn't "accidentally" target a foreign national on behalf of Du30. This was again the work of a longstanding syndicate of corrupt policemen who haven't been caught for the past 20 years. And the reason they kidnapped a South Korean wasn't because it was a fuck up. They instead kidnapped him almost certainly on the sole basis of him "looking" Filipino-Chinese and therefore had a lot of money.

In short this had nothing to do with politics or international incidents. This was a criminal gang in the police force being racist shitholes who see anyone Chinese-looking as PROFIT. It's been going on for the longest time, right up the highest level. Hell one of the police chiefs suspected of being one of the heads of this gang is now a Senator!

That's why the South Koreans didn't really raise a stink about it (compare and contrast to how hysterical Hong Kong got after our cops bungled a hostage rescue of their citizens). They know. Filipinos also know. That's why nobody was surprised when folks learned a South Korean got kidnapped and killed.

The real issue, which K.A.Pital mentioned, was that they got caught doing it. And they got caught doing it in the police HQ. The whole incident, rather than being some international incident brought about by Du30, was in fact an ugly reminder to Filipinos that the police have been harboring a 20 year old kidnapping syndicate that no government has been able to solve.

And the potential reaction of the Filipino-Chinese and Middle class - both of whom treat the kidnap-for-ransom syndicate as a really foul and existential threat - is what really motivated Du30 and the government as a whole to act quickly. That's why the Speaker of the House actually called on the PNP Chief to resign initially despite the said chief being a Du30 favorite. They know that the Filipino-Chinese have the money to make the next election really ugly for them, and the middle class have zero tolerance for that kind of criminality.

But no, it's all a Du30 plot because he apparently controlled the kidnapping ring that's been operating for 20 years. It's all about the potential international embarrassment - rather than being a strictly local issue and a reflection of longstanding issues - because a couple of ignorant foreigners want to forget they have a lunatic in the White House

Now you might not dispute those facts per se, but don't like me gloating instead. I will point out this board's motto includes mocking stupid people. That includes Duterte, and there are other messageboards if you don't like mocking stupid people.

Oh Gee, let's mock Duterte for actually aiming the crosshairs at the corrupt cops who have been running a kidnap for ransom syndicate since 1996 for once because you and every ignorant foreigner commenting about the Philippines were so busy gloating and pretending he has 100% control over the national police.

The reason why I mock clueless foreigners trying to project their Trump fears on Du30 is really simple. You're so fucking clueless about the reality of the situation in the Philippines is that you act all shock and horrified over the Drug War without realizing who the real culprits are. Du30 is merely the lightning rod. He has actually largely failed to exercise his powers which is why the Philippines hasn't hit any real major crisis despite him already being six months in office and being inconsistent all the way. That is why he still has basically little real control over the police force (which is divided into many virtual "tribes" anyway) and the army is essentially just waiting for an excuse to coup him. By contrast it took Trump, what, nine days to blow everyone's minds?

Du30 is instead a reflection of the ugly side of Philippine society. He's not only our president, but he's a popular president. And the truly ugly reality that nobody outside the Philippines wants to face (and very few within the country want to admit) is that Filipinos wanted all of those "extrajudicial killings".

The "War on Drugs" was never going to succeed because fighting drugs wasn't the point. The Philippines had in fact been doing very well over the past two decades, with a real and growing middle class. Drug use by all accounts was in fact going down because people actually had stuff to look forward to.

The problem is that there were people and areas "left behind" - mainly in the slums populated by the urban poor - where criminality was rampant and syndicates preyed on both their fellow poor and the middle class. As the rest of the country moved forward, the despair and desperation in these places only heightened.

Worse, rather than try to fix these places - which would take a lot of resources and actual work - the knee-jerk reaction of the rich, the middle class and the poor (who were the likeliest victims of the syndicates) was one of tribal vengeance. It became acceptable for "criminals" to be killed without trial and end up a floating corpse on the river. The fact that the police were generally recruited from these slums only made matters worse because policemen "taking the law into their own hands" became deeply ingrained in the culture of the police force.

That's why 80% of the population didn't blink and continued to support Du30 despite all the "Drug War" casualties. Everyone knew what it really was. It was a purge of the urban poor, made worse by the fact that it was merely the continuation / escalation of a process that had been happening for years before Du30. That foreigners keep thinking that Filipinos are being delusional by defending Du30 - when in reality they're actually just defending their own support and complicity in the purge - is just a stark demonstration of the culture of "strong man" scapegoatism that is afflicting modern politics.

[mr friendly guy]

Let me explain things more clearly for you:

They didn't "accidentally" target a foreign national on behalf of Du30. This was again the work of a longstanding syndicate of corrupt policemen who haven't been caught for the past 20 years. And the reason they kidnapped a South Korean wasn't because it was a fuck up. They instead kidnapped him almost certainly on the sole basis of him "looking" Filipino-Chinese and therefore had a lot of money.

I don't know what your beef is aside from projection about Trump supporters, but this is getting tiresome. I mean if they were going after Filipino Chinese or local drug dealers and they get a South Korean instead, its a fuck up. Plain and simple. Now I am not sure who they were really going after, but its still a fuck up. I said it was a fuck up because I couldn't imagine how they could mistake a South Korean for a local. But apparently they mistook him for a Filipino Chinese, which is less stupid. However its still pretty stupid because once he opens his mouth his accent would give him away.

In short this had nothing to do with politics or international incidents.

When I was talking about the political structure of the Philippines, I was referring to the corruption and the lack of structures to deal with it.

This was a criminal gang in the police force being racist shitholes who see anyone Chinese-looking as PROFIT. It's been going on for the longest time, right up the highest level. Hell one of the police chiefs suspected of being one of the heads of this gang is now a Senator!

So you keep telling us. I am still not sure how they even touches on what I said, as opposed to what you think I said.

That's why the South Koreans didn't really raise a stink about it (compare and contrast to how hysterical Hong Kong got after our cops bungled a hostage rescue of their citizens). They know. Filipinos also know. That's why nobody was surprised when folks learned a South Korean got kidnapped and killed.

Well their government certainly did raise a stink, which is what is expected of every government.
https://globalnation.inquirer.net/15181 ... der-korean

Even if they "know" this is par for the course in the Philippines they certainly did raise a stink.

But no, it's all a Du30 plot because he apparently controlled the kidnapping ring that's been operating for 20 years. It's all about the potential international embarrassment - rather than being a strictly local issue and a reflection of longstanding issues - because a couple of ignorant foreigners want to forget they have a lunatic in the White House

This strawman is getting tiresome. No one ever claimed he micromanaged every single one of the killings. Only that his declaration of open season encouraged more than usual because of the belief that he will protect them. Now corrupt cops could have been embolden enough to do this particular crime anyway even if Duterte was the same as his predecessor, but that's hard to pin it among all the other extra judicial killings noted.

Oh Gee, let's mock Duterte for actually aiming the crosshairs at the corrupt cops who have been running a kidnap for ransom syndicate since 1996 for once because you and every ignorant foreigner commenting about the Philippines were so busy gloating and pretending he has 100% control over the national police.

No one claim he has 100% control or is micromanaging every single killing. BTW I mocked him for many things, but not for punishing these corrupt cops. Try again.

The reason why I mock clueless foreigners trying to project their Trump fears on Du30 is really simple.

Newsflash, I am more worried about Trump starting a trade war than him doing to the US what Duterte is doing domestically. Try again with this projection claim.

You're so fucking clueless about the reality of the situation in the Philippines is that you act all shock and horrified over the Drug War without realizing who the real culprits are.

Good thing I only commented on a narrow area then. Which is also why I never made claims that corruption didn't exist before Duterte or he has so much power that he could control everything. Because I am not an expert in that. The thing is, you know a lot, but is what you're saying actually relevant to the limited area I commented on? At best you can say this particular extra judicial killing wasn't motivated by Duterte's openly stated protection he was going to offer them and they may have done it anyway.

Du30 is merely the lightning rod. He has actually largely failed to exercise his powers which is why the Philippines hasn't hit any real major crisis despite him already being six months in office and being inconsistent all the way. That is why he still has basically little real control over the police force (which is divided into many virtual "tribes" anyway) and the army is essentially just waiting for an excuse to coup him. By contrast it took Trump, what, nine days to blow everyone's minds?

Du30 is instead a reflection of the ugly side of Philippine society. He's not only our president, but he's a popular president. And the truly ugly reality that nobody outside the Philippines wants to face (and very few within the country want to admit) is that Filipinos wanted all of those "extrajudicial killings".

Yeah I said earlier that society isn't absolved.

The "War on Drugs" was never going to succeed because fighting drugs wasn't the point. The Philippines had in fact been doing very well over the past two decades, with a real and growing middle class. Drug use by all accounts was in fact going down because people actually had stuff to look forward to.

The problem is that there were people and areas "left behind" - mainly in the slums populated by the urban poor - where criminality was rampant and syndicates preyed on both their fellow poor and the middle class. As the rest of the country moved forward, the despair and desperation in these places only heightened.

Worse, rather than try to fix these places - which would take a lot of resources and actual work - the knee-jerk reaction of the rich, the middle class and the poor (who were the likeliest victims of the syndicates) was one of tribal vengeance. It became acceptable for "criminals" to be killed without trial and end up a floating corpse on the river. The fact that the police were generally recruited from these slums only made matters worse because policemen "taking the law into their own hands" became deeply ingrained in the culture of the police force.

That's why 80% of the population didn't blink and continued to support Du30 despite all the "Drug War" casualties. Everyone knew what it really was. It was a purge of the urban poor, made worse by the fact that it was merely the continuation / escalation of a process that had been happening for years before Du30. That foreigners keep thinking that Filipinos are being delusional by defending Du30 - when in reality they're actually just defending their own support and complicity in the purge - is just a stark demonstration of the culture of "strong man" scapegoatism that is afflicting modern politics.

Ok, I get it. The Philippines is a fucked up place. I will remember it for those trolls on spacebattles.

We should also mock the Philippine citizens who support him since they really support him because of reasons x,y,z and not because he brainwash them or something. Yeah ok. Not that I ever thought society gets absolved for voting him in.

Oh, on another note since they support him killing the urban poor and not foreign nationals, then yeah, its a fuck up.

[Shroom Man 777]

How does Duterte's purge of dirty cops work, anyway, when his statements (I don't know about his actual motives) previously said he'd defend accused cops, when he reinstated a corrupt cop who later on killed a suspect in the suspect's own jail cell, when he himself said things like "you can do other sideline money-making things just not drugs/kidnapping" and when they outright say that they just send rotten cops to Mindanao because that will apparently solve the problem and because neglected Mindanao deserves to be a repository of corrupt failures of police officers...

Of course, Cover Your Ass and all of these aren't new in Philippine politics but it's escalated into preposterous degrees...

[Flagg]

How does Duterte's purge of dirty cops work, anyway, when his statements (I don't know about his actual motives) previously said he'd defend accused cops, when he reinstated a corrupt cop who later on killed a suspect in the suspect's own jail cell, when he himself said things like "you can do other sideline money-making things just not drugs/kidnapping" and when they outright say that they just send rotten cops to Mindanao because that will apparently solve the problem and because neglected Mindanao deserves to be a repository of corrupt failures of police officers...

Of course, Cover Your Ass and all of these aren't new in Philippine politics but it's escalated into preposterous degrees...

Move along, nothing to see here!
-Zinegata

[Zinegata]

I mean if they were going after Filipino Chinese or local drug dealers and they get a South Korean instead, its a fuck up..

... You still don't get how these criminals think.

They didn't care about his accent, because again they're just racist douches who think chinese-looking eyes = MONEY. They see an isolated chinese-looking guy? They are going after him whether or not he actually has money.

It's a criminal syndicate, not a political propaganda group. They prey on innocent people. They don't terribly care if they get caught, because they think their corrupt backers in the police force will catch them. That's why they embarrassed the government to such a degree by getting caught in the HQ in the first place.

Well their government certainly did raise a stink, which is what is expected of every government.
https://globalnation.inquirer.net/15181 ... der-korean

Lol, you call "demanding answers" raising a stink?

http://cnnphilippines.com/news/2015/08/ ... tions.html

That's raising a stink - Travel bans. Monetary compensation. Threats to fire domestic helpers. That's why I directly compared the current SK kidnapping incident to the HK hostage crisis. You'd think that having corrupt cops kill a citizen would be worse than incompetent cops failing to rescue hostages.

Only that his declaration of open season encouraged more than usual because of the belief that he will protect them. Now corrupt cops could have been embolden enough to do this particular crime anyway even if Duterte was the same as his predecessor, but that's hard to pin it among all the other extra judicial killings noted.

Again, the kidnappings were happening since 1996. They were happening even without Du30 "emboldening" them.

Moreover, the real dirty secret of the Du30 government is how spectacularly ineffective it actually is at governance. The executive arm of his government for instance has only issued twelve Executive Orders in the past six months:

http://www.gov.ph/section/executive-orders/

And, despite all of his talk about the "drug war" - only one EO is actually related to it. This is EO4, which establishes drug rehabilitation centers.
Some of the EOs are even shockingly progressive and liberal - like the second EO which was basically a Freedom of Information waiver. The thing is nobody's actually tried to test the damn thing in a serious way because everyone is all focused on the "drug war".

Hence the Duterte government is so bad at governing that they haven't even put the whole "drug war" thing into writing as a policy of the executive branch. The only people in the government who think they are in the middle of the Drug War are the police, but even here the reforms of the previous administration are showing. In spite of all the deaths (mostly in urban poor areas), they managed to arrest (without killing) 50,000 people and had 1,100,000 people surrender voluntarily. The police may still be corrupt, but outside of the urban poor areas they aren't full of murderous idiots anymore.

Ok, I get it. The Philippines is a fucked up place. I will remember it for those trolls on spacebattles.

We should also mock the Philippine citizens who support him since they really support him because of reasons x,y,z and not because he brainwash them or something. Yeah ok. Not that I ever thought society gets absolved for voting him in.

Oh, on another note since they support him killing the urban poor and not foreign nationals, then yeah, its a fuck up.

Fine with me on those counts.

[Zinegata]

How does Duterte's purge of dirty cops work, anyway, when his statements (I don't know about his actual motives) previously said he'd defend accused cops, when he reinstated a corrupt cop who later on killed a suspect in the suspect's own jail cell, when he himself said things like "you can do other sideline money-making things just not drugs/kidnapping" and when they outright say that they just send rotten cops to Mindanao because that will apparently solve the problem and because neglected Mindanao deserves to be a repository of corrupt failures of police officers...

Of course, Cover Your Ass and all of these aren't new in Philippine politics but it's escalated into preposterous degrees...

Spectacularly ineffectively.

Again, there is a vast gulf between Duterte's rhetoric and actual government policy.

As I noted above, Du30 has issued only 12 executive orders. None directly mention a "drug war", with only one being "related" by virtue of ordering the construction of more rehabilitation centers. As far as the executive branch is concerned, the Drug War does not exist. Neither does the "War on scalawags". They are just figments of Du30's imagination.

In practice this means that the majority of the government isn't prepared to actually handle the prosecution of any dirty cops outside of the already-existing procedures... which means it will again be spectacularly ineffective. No dirty cops will be sent to Mindanao (Gulag to Siberia-style) because there are literally no orders or structures in place to allow this to happen.

Whether this is because Du30 is a closet genius covering his ass so he isn't jailed for his bad mouth or the rest of the government just outright ignoring his "orders" is up for debate; but the latter seems increasingly more likely.

The only folks really receiving and implementing orders from Du30 directly is the police force - through the Police Chief "Bato". Problem is, Bato is also just a showman like Du30 and doesn't really know how to fix his own police force. This is largely because Bato simply has no control over his own policemen - as they tend to be more loyal to the local government leader (who give them extra funding and bonuses, not to mention custom uniforms in certain cities) than to the national police chief.

Basically, Bato's job right now is to look contrite and tug on emotions for as long as possible before Congress gets fed up again and asks to fire him; which in turn buys more time for Du30 to continue his inactivity.

[mr friendly guy]

I mean if they were going after Filipino Chinese or local drug dealers and they get a South Korean instead, its a fuck up..

... You still don't get how these criminals think.

They didn't care about his accent, because again they're just racist douches who think chinese-looking eyes = MONEY. They see an isolated chinese-looking guy? They are going after him whether or not he actually has money.

Dude, you're the one who said they got the SK businessman because they thought he was Filipino Chinese. Under that criteria, it was clearly a mistake. Now you say, well they are just going to get anyone who they think is rich irregardless of nationality. In which case the fuck up is no longer in mistaken identity, but in their entire MO.

Lol, you call "demanding answers" raising a stink?

http://cnnphilippines.com/news/2015/08/ ... tions.html

That's raising a stink - Travel bans. Monetary compensation. Threats to fire domestic helpers. That's why I directly compared the current SK kidnapping incident to the HK hostage crisis. You'd think that having corrupt cops kill a citizen would be worse than incompetent cops failing to rescue hostages.

I tire of your shifting goalposts. I said it a fuck up to target a foreigner. You said that targeting people (with the implication it also includes foreigners) for extortion was MO of the PNP and gave an example of targeting DOMESTIC Filipinos. When its pointed out that these weren't foreigners you said, they target Chinese nationals too. You gave links showing they target Philippine citizens. When I point out what happens when harm comes to Chinese nationals, ie there is actually a bigger penalty to pay because China and Hong Kong raised a stink, you said well that's China, SK won't. When I point out they do, you say because its not on the same scale as China so it doesn't count. Even though SK don't need to necessarily do more unless the Philippine government response is inadequate. Given YOU have said Duterte is now going after these corrupt cops, we shall see whether SK needs to do more.

Again, the kidnappings were happening since 1996. They were happening even without Du30 "emboldening" them.

I have no trouble believing they were doing an extortion and kidnapping ring on the locals. However you links talk about predominantly targeting Philippine citizens rather than foreigners.

[Shroom Man 777]

Spectacularly ineffectively.

Again, there is a vast gulf between Duterte's rhetoric and actual government policy.

As I noted above, Du30 has issued only 12 executive orders. None directly mention a "drug war", with only one being "related" by virtue of ordering the construction of more rehabilitation centers. As far as the executive branch is concerned, the Drug War does not exist. Neither does the "War on scalawags". They are just figments of Du30's imagination.

What about the these (legally dubious and of-uncertain-officiality) lists and summons to confess/admit guilt and promise repentance that people have been talking about?

In practice this means that the majority of the government isn't prepared to actually handle the prosecution of any dirty cops outside of the already-existing procedures... which means it will again be spectacularly ineffective. No dirty cops will be sent to Mindanao (Gulag to Siberia-style) because there are literally no orders or structures in place to allow this to happen.

Whether this is because Du30 is a closet genius covering his ass so he isn't jailed for his bad mouth or the rest of the government just outright ignoring his "orders" is up for debate; but the latter seems increasingly more likely.

Considering this breakdown, that seems to be of a different degree/scale than the previous administration, one wonders whether the calls for decentralization/federalization are appropriate. Since "get our shit together" is the priority and organization as it is is already difficult.

The only folks really receiving and implementing orders from Du30 directly is the police force - through the Police Chief "Bato". Problem is, Bato is also just a showman like Du30 and doesn't really know how to fix his own police force. This is largely because Bato simply has no control over his own policemen - as they tend to be more loyal to the local government leader (who give them extra funding and bonuses, not to mention custom uniforms in certain cities) than to the national police chief.

Basically, Bato's job right now is to look contrite and tug on emotions for as long as possible before Congress gets fed up again and asks to fire him; which in turn buys more time for Du30 to continue his inactivity.

I really don't get it. It's some Heisenberg's Uncertainty, Schrodinger's BS. It looks like law enforcement's been let off the leash to a greater degree than ever before and Duterte's rhetoric more than flirts with authoritarianism, Angeles City/Pubic Bay kind of flirting even. But... operationally, you're saying that he's as disorganized and inactive as fuck? - which I can believe since my anxieties before his inauguration were more on the "they have no machinery to run the government and it'll be some spectacular disorganized mess like post-Ramos..." (because at first my worry is that the War on Drugs would be a disorganized mess strewn with casualties rather than some hyper-organized Khmer Rouge thing...).

So barring the DSWD and DENR whose secretaries are straight-shooting do-gooders (and that's great IMO)... Duts' relations with the other branches are as inscrutable as his relationship with the military (where Duts is going "yes it is!" and the generals are going "uh no it's not!" when it's about US bases, US visiting forces and exercises, etc.)?

I guess this means Duterte's kumpares from all his aligned camps - GMA, Marcoses, PDP-Laban - have open season to do whatever.

[Shroom Man 777]

You know, considering that the shenanigans of Bato - our PNP chief - involve having a freaking mascot, being in PSAs where there's a huge rock on his desk because his nickname "Bato" = THE ROCK... and he tells erring cops to make amends... by doing push ups... I think even in the pretending to look contrite, crying and tugging on emotions department he fucking fails. Good for nothing.