I'm not trying to argue that one factor explains everything. I'm merely observing that a global neo-fasictic movement is present, and that there is evidence of Kremlin support for it- not that their are no other factors involved.
I'm also rather tired, however, of hearing how the rise of the far Right is just a backlash against an unfair status quo. There may be some of that, but their is a huge component of outright bigotry, and as problematic as the old status quo is, their are far possibilities- some of which we are likely to see in detail, thanks to this idiocy.
So when people living in relatively peaceful and prosperous first world countries (and it wasn't just the desperately poor backing Trump and Brexit by any means) decided to undermine democracy and throw decades of progress for women and minorities under the bus on the assumption that the only thing that matters is breaking the status quo, and that any change is good change... it might be politically pragmatic to heed their concerns, but I cannot help but feel a profound sense of injustice at the notion that we must sympathize with such petty selfishness.
Crazedwraith wrote:The Romulan Republic wrote:
That's full on conspiracy theorist.
Ah, so you're in the denialst club when it comes to Russian interference in the 2016 election? And I suppose that Sessions perjured himself, and Trump is persistently trying to obstruct any investigation, for shits and giggles?
Its not exactly a secret that Russia interferes in other countries' elections (or that America has, for that matter).
That's not what I said. It seems possible that they tried to interfere in the US Election and Brexit. I say again, possible. Nothings been proven. Even so a few russian hackers pushing their own sides and releasing emails and so on is not ' a global neo-fascistic movement, which is ultimately funded, manipulated, and covertly supported by the Kremlin to undermine western democracy.'
Which seems a massively hyperbolic inflated claim. I prefer "Russians may have interfered in recent elections" vs "ZOMH! Fascists everywhere!" if you will permit the broad paraphrasing of what seemed to me to be you point.
I think that we have both to some extent misread, and assumed exaggerated views of, the others' argument.
I'll allow that you were not intending to deny Russian involvement (although I do not think it can be safely dismissed as just "a few Russian hackers", which wording implies isolated individuals working without state backing). Nor was I trying to say anything more than that their is a push towards far Right positions throughout much of the world today (which I don't think you will deny), and that their are connections between these various campaigns (as discussed in the OP/article), some of which are (or, if you wish to wait for definitive proof, appear to be) backed by the Kremlin.
Tribble wrote:The Romulan Republic wrote:Its not exactly a secret that Russia interferes in other countries' elections (or that America has, for that matter).
Which is why not many people act surprised or shocked.
Of course countries like Russia, China, the USA, UK, Saudia Arabia etc attempt to interfere with elections / other governments to suit their own ends. I would be more surprised if they
didn't. The Russians and Trump just happen to be in a positon where some evidence against them got leaked. Unfortunately they are also in a position where their party doesn't care all that much so long as it aids in their war against the Democrats.
Perhaps, but I don't buy "other people do it to, so its okay". If I murdered someone and told the judge "But the Mexican cartels kill more people", I wouldn't expect to get off. If we presume that this is happening all the time, but this time we managed to expose it... we should be glad that we can finally nail somebody this time, not ignore it because other crimes were more effectively concealed.
And the 2016 election seems particularly brazen, and particularly catastrophic in the scope, and potential scope, of its consequences.
With regards to Brexit, I really don't think any Russian interference changed all that much, something like this was coming for a long time now. Something like Brexit happening was only a matter of when, not if. At most you could say Russia aided groups which sped up the process.
I don't think the outcome was inevitable, but I'm inclined to put the blame more on the self-serving cowardice, incompetence, and general lack of leadership of Pig Fucker Cameron (as well as the imbecility of roughy half the British voters).
But since this thread is discussing connections between the support for Brexit and Trumpians like genocidal apocalypse prophet Bannon, it seemed a good time to point out that both are but parts of a larger far Right movement, which represents a global threat.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
