Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by Vympel »

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/09/the ... -happened/

US media continues to regularly humiliate itself:
Friday was one of the most embarrassing days for the U.S. media in quite a long time. The humiliation orgy was kicked off by CNN, with MSNBC and CBS close behind, with countless pundits, commentators and operatives joining the party throughout the day. By the end of the day, it was clear that several of the nation’s largest and most influential news outlets had spread an explosive but completely false news story to millions of people, while refusing to provide any explanation of how it happened.

The spectacle began on Friday morning at 11:00 am EST, when the Most Trusted Name in News™ spent 12 straight minutes on air flamboyantly hyping an exclusive bombshell report that seemed to prove that WikiLeaks, last September, had secretly offered the Trump campaign, even Donald Trump himself, special access to the DNC emails before they were published on the internet. As CNN sees the world, this would prove collusion between the Trump family and WikiLeaks and, more importantly, between Trump and Russia, since the U.S. intelligence community regards WikiLeaks as an “arm of Russian intelligence,” and therefore, so does the U.S. media.

This entire revelation was based on an email which CNN strongly implied it had exclusively obtained and had in its possession. The email was sent by someone named “Michael J. Erickson” – someone nobody had heard of previously and whom CNN could not identify – to Donald Trump, Jr., offering a decryption key and access to DNC emails that WikiLeaks had “uploaded.” The email was a smoking gun, in CNN’s extremely excited mind, because it was dated September 4 – ten days before WikiLeaks began promoting access to those emails online – and thus proved that the Trump family was being offered special, unique access to the DNC archive: likely by WikiLeaks and the Kremlin.

It’s impossible to convey with words what a spectacularly devastating scoop CNN believed it had, so it’s necessary to watch it for yourself to see the tone of excitement, breathlessness and gravity the network conveyed as they clearly believed they were delivering a near-fatal blow to the Trump/Russia collusion story:

...

There was just one small problem with this story: it was fundamentally false, in the most embarrassing way possible. Hours after CNN broadcast its story – and then hyped it over and over and over – the Washington Post reported that CNN got the key fact of the story wrong.

The email was not dated September 4, as CNN claimed, but rather September 14 – which means it was sent after WikiLeaks had already published access to the DNC emails online. Thus, rather than offering some sort of special access to Trump, “Michael J. Erickson” was simply some random person from the public encouraging the Trump family to look at the publicly available DNC emails that WikiLeaks – as everyone by then already knew – had publicly promoted. In other words, the email was the exact opposite of what CNN presented it as being.
It's a long piece. But what is apparent (though CNN etc. refuse to say so) is that some shitlicker set out to deliberately spread this false story and they all ran with it without checking for themselves:
Think about what this means. It means that at least two – and possibly more – sources, which these media outlets all assessed as credible in terms of having access to sensitive information, all fed the same false information to multiple news outlets at the same time. For multiple reasons, the probability is very high that these sources were Democratic members of the House Intelligence Committee (or their high-level staff members), which is the committee that obtained access to Trump Jr.’s emails, although it’s certainly possible that it’s someone else. We won’t know until these news outlets deign to report this crucial information to the public: which “multiple sources” acted jointly to disseminate incredibly inflammatory, false information to the nation’s largest news outlets?

Just last week, the Washington Post decided – to great applause (including mine) – to expose a source to whom they had promised anonymity and off-the-record protections because they discovered that she was purposely feeding them false information as part of a scheme by Project Veritas to discredit the Post. It’s a well established principle of journalism – one that is rarely followed when it comes to powerful people in DC – that journalists should expose, rather than protect and conceal, sources who purposely feed them false information to be disseminated to the public.

Is that what happened here? Did these “multiple sources” who fed not just CNN but also MSNBC and CBS completely false information do so deliberately and in bad faith? Until these news outlets provide an accounting of what happened – what one might call “minimal journalistic transparency” – it’s impossible to say for certain. But right now, it’s very difficult to imagine a scenario where multiple sources all fed the wrong date to multiple media outlets innocently and in good faith.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by mr friendly guy »

How does one mistake the number 14 for 4?
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by Dominus Atheos »

As vympel said, this was probably a deliberate "false flag" type effort to discredit the establishment media. Who bought it hook line and sinker.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by Simon_Jester »

Given that the far right is methodically spamming fraudulent documents in an attempt to 'sting' the media, how is it surprising that they don't have a 0% success rate? Enough deliberate fraud can and will get a shot in past anyone's guard.

Therefore, I am no longer willing to revise my estimate of a media group downwards because they failed to detect deliberate fraud, until the far right stops using deliberate fraud as a weapon to discredit the media. Otherwise, it gives the far right an incentive to keep doing more and more fraud, until for every piece of real evidence there are ten or twenty or a hundred pieces of fake evidence.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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If people trusted the “traditional” media before such attacks, they were gullible fools. I have very little pity. Let the ship of fools sink along with the fools on board.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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You forgot that the NRA is now part of the REEEE! Russia conspiracy theory too!
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

"Some journalists made a mistake! This proves all the media is bad (except the media that we agree with), just like the Dear Leader said!"

Oh wait, no, Vympel is just once again peddling Trumpian conspiracy rhetoric, in this case encouraging the "fake news" narrative specifically designed and perpetuated by the Trump regime for the purposes of undermining the freedom of the press. Complete with (entirely speculative) conspiracy theory about Democrats on the Intelligence Committee deliberately feeding journalists false information to frame the Dear Leader, and a demand that the journalists reveal their sources (thus enabling retaliation against them).

If false information was deliberately distributed, it is, as others have said, far more likely a deliberate set-up by Right-wing operatives, just like the ones attempted on the Washington Post to discredit the accusations against Roy Moore. No, I have no proof of that theory, but then, neither does Vympel, so I dare say my speculation is as good as his.

Journalists should absolutely be called out on mistakes, but this is a highly speculative, purely partisan attack with overtly authoritarian undertones.

I now await Vympel calling me a McCarthyist, as per usual.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

And I find such sweeping attacks on "the media" (by which the people making such attacks mean "any media I don't agree with) to be particularly contemptible because they directly legitimize authoritarian attacks on the independence of said media.

Likewise, perpetuating a narrative that any allegations against Trump must be the result of a partisan conspiracy directly serves Trump's agenda- their is an active campaign by the administration and its allies underway to discredit Mueller's investigation, likely as a prelude to shutting it down, and/or to provide an excuse for pardons/refusing to impeach as more indictments are made.

Worst case, it will serve as the pretext for political violence when and if Trump is indicted/impeached.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-12-10 09:45am Given that the far right is methodically spamming fraudulent documents in an attempt to 'sting' the media, how is it surprising that they don't have a 0% success rate? Enough deliberate fraud can and will get a shot in past anyone's guard.

Therefore, I am no longer willing to revise my estimate of a media group downwards because they failed to detect deliberate fraud, until the far right stops using deliberate fraud as a weapon to discredit the media. Otherwise, it gives the far right an incentive to keep doing more and more fraud, until for every piece of real evidence there are ten or twenty or a hundred pieces of fake evidence.
I might actually buy that excuse if the media didn't have a history of printing whatever shit they're fed with no verification as long as it fits their narrative. For instance, the good old Russians hacked the US power grid shit fest from last year, where one phone call to the utility would be all it takes to verify the facts. Did that happen? No. And within a few hours every media outlet was reporting on this latest "Russian hack".

But it goes back a lot further than that. During the George Zimmerman debacle a few years back, MSNBC was caught falsifying video footage and several others were selectively editing 911 transcripts and taking them out of context to push their agendas. Even more fun was how photos of Zimmerman went from having a typical Hispanic skin tone & complexion to being a lily white Caucasian over the space of a week. I went over all this shit complete with links to the full 911 transcripts, autopsy reports, and court documents in the giant threads on this topic back in the day. That was what broke the media's credibility for me, and the way they've handled shit since then gives me no reason to trust them.

As far as I'm concerned, all mainstream news stories are suspect until I can verify them from the original sources. That's how shit their credibility is these days. This will not change until they do their fucking jobs and earn their trust back.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

So you admit that you presume all media is false until proven otherwise (unless, I presume, it fits your biases)?

That's a handy way to dismiss any viewpoint you don't want to listen to without actually having to put any thought or analysis into it.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-12-10 05:51pm "Some journalists made a mistake! This proves all the media is bad (except the media that we agree with), just like the Dear Leader said!"
Oh fuck off - I didn't say anything about "all media is bad" or anything of the kind. The fact remains this kind of journalistic malpractice has been a consistent feature of coverage since the election. If that helps Trump's narrative, whose fault is that? Mine, apparently :D
Oh wait, no, Vympel is just once again peddling Trumpian conspiracy rhetoric, in this case encouraging the "fake news" narrative specifically designed and perpetuated by the Trump regime for the purposes of undermining the freedom of the press.
Actually, "Fake news" as a concept was designed by the media as a reason for Trump's victory, before Trump grabbed it and rendered it meaningless.
Complete with (entirely speculative) conspiracy theory about Democrats on the Intelligence Committee deliberately feeding journalists false information to frame the Dear Leader, and a demand that the journalists reveal their sources (thus enabling retaliation against them).
They deserve retaliation! They deliberately spread false information and deceived millions of people, and strengthened Trump's narrative. What the fuck is wrong with you? I also like it how you call the idea that maybe Democrats (i.e. congressmen or their staffers) spreading this a "conspiracy theory" - coming from someone who insists that Trump is a Russian agent, that's hilarious.

For you, the Steele dossier's ridiculous claim that the Russians cultivated Trump for five years prior to the election (i.e. the Russians watched the Apprentice and predicted he would run for President) isn't a conspiracy theory, but pointing that it's exceedingly unlikely that two supposedly separate sources just accidentally fed the wrong date to multiple media outlets - is. It's beyond parody.
If false information was deliberately distributed, it is, as others have said, far more likely a deliberate set-up by Right-wing operatives, just like the ones attempted on the Washington Post to discredit the accusations against Roy Moore. No, I have no proof of that theory, but then, neither does Vympel, so I dare say my speculation is as good as his.
ROFLMAO. Yeah right, because of course CNN, MSNBC and CBS would all believe right-wing operatives without checking first. Your "oh it's right wing operatives" is just naked, stupid "my side" tribalism at its worst.

And your argument is not even consistent with itself. If it's a right wing op, then of course those sources should be exposed, surely?
Journalists should absolutely be called out on mistakes, but this is a highly speculative, purely partisan attack with overtly authoritarian undertones.
ROFLMAO. How is it "authoritarian", exactly?

Oh wait, here we go:
And I find such sweeping attacks on "the media" (by which the people making such attacks mean "any media I don't agree with) to be particularly contemptible because they directly legitimize authoritarian attacks on the independence of said media.
I'm not sure what's funnier, that you think the handful of conglomerates that control the media are "independent" rather than mouth-pieces for their owners (all of whom have political interests that are aimed at fucking you and everyone else in the world up the ass so long as they make some money doing it), or that you'd rather the media continually put out inflammatory, flagrantly false nonsense without consequence so long as it comports with your political preferences - instead of demanding any accountability from their lying sources whatsoever.
Likewise, perpetuating a narrative that any allegations against Trump must be the result of a partisan conspiracy directly serves Trump's agenda- their is an active campaign by the administration and its allies underway to discredit Mueller's investigation, likely as a prelude to shutting it down, and/or to provide an excuse for pardons/refusing to impeach as more indictments are made.
Here's a thought, maybe they wouldn't expose themselves to allegations of being part of a partisan conspiracy if they actually checked their facts and didn't repeatedly make errors that all went in one direction?
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by aerius »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-12-10 06:49pm So you admit that you presume all media is false until proven otherwise (unless, I presume, it fits your biases)?

That's a handy way to dismiss any viewpoint you don't want to listen to without actually having to put any thought or analysis into it.
Words, can you read them? Apparently not.

Let me spell this out for you. All mainstream media stories are taken with a dumptruck full of salt until I can track down the original sources to verify them. It's called doing your due diligence when the media refuses to do it. What I want is the truth, i don't care if it fits my biases or preconceptions, the facts are what they are. My viewpoints can change to fit the facts because I'm an adult. Unlike you, I'm not an emotionally dysfunctional windbag who needs to prove his self-worth on the internet by showing how hard he can hate on Trump, the Alt-Right, or whatever the cause of the day is.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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All I know is, while I may or may not trust the mainstream media to do their fact-checking, I'm not going to trust them less than I already did because they fell for deliberate fraud specifically engineered to discredit them.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-12-10 07:35pm All I know is, while I may or may not trust the mainstream media to do their fact-checking, I'm not going to trust them less than I already did because they fell for deliberate fraud specifically engineered to discredit them.
I can agree with that, It's kinda hard to go below zero on the trust-o-meter... :lol:
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-12-10 07:35pm All I know is, while I may or may not trust the mainstream media to do their fact-checking, I'm not going to trust them less than I already did because they fell for deliberate fraud specifically engineered to discredit them.
There is no reason to believe that this was "deliberate fraud engineered to discredit them". If that was the case, the sources would've been exposed by now. That they haven't been should tell you all you need to know - these sources are considered sufficiently friendly that their exposure (contrary to say, the Project Veritas lowlife who tried to discredit WaPo's Roy Moore reporting) is being resisted.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by Simon_Jester »

Vympel wrote: 2017-12-10 07:40pm
Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-12-10 07:35pm All I know is, while I may or may not trust the mainstream media to do their fact-checking, I'm not going to trust them less than I already did because they fell for deliberate fraud specifically engineered to discredit them.
There is no reason to believe that this was "deliberate fraud engineered to discredit them". If that was the case, the sources would've been exposed by now. That they haven't been should tell you all you need to know - these sources are considered sufficiently friendly that their exposure (contrary to say, the Project Veritas lowlife who tried to discredit WaPo's Roy Moore reporting) is being resisted.
I will take a pause before deciding with 100% certainty that this was the product of fraud rather than error. On the other hand, I won't simply decide it must be fraud because a fraud would have been exposed by now.
aerius wrote: 2017-12-10 07:37pm
Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-12-10 07:35pm All I know is, while I may or may not trust the mainstream media to do their fact-checking, I'm not going to trust them less than I already did because they fell for deliberate fraud specifically engineered to discredit them.
I can agree with that, It's kinda hard to go below zero on the trust-o-meter... :lol:
[/quote]The far right has in fact done this; they've gotten to the point where they specifically assume ALL stories reported in the media are part of a falsified crafted narrative intended to discredit them. Which involves negative trust; not only do you not trust them, you expect them to specifically go out of their way to screw you, personally.

As opposed to just expecting all the mainstream media outlets to just mindlessly copy each other and report stuff without fact-checking, which involves zero trust.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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I think this kind of shit pre dated the far right discrediting campaign Simon. The Zimmerman case Aerius cites was before that. The bad reporting of the Russian / Georgian war in 2008 was before the discrediting campaign. The WMDs in Iraq rubbish was even earlier. The shit has finally come home to roost. The problem is when people point this out we are accused of supporting Trump or <geopolitical rival here> by people as a cheap ad hominem instead of looking at the evidence.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by Swindle1984 »

Given CNN's history of bias and fraudulent news, I'm not the least bit surprised they fell for this without even basic fact checking. They've repeatedly shot themselves in the foot reporting what they want to be true rather than what they know to be true, and it's ruining the credibility of legacy media all over America.

The fact that the US government and mainstream media are one big, incestuous family (fun project: find out how many major media execs have spouses or close relatives working for the government, often in media-related offices; almost as many as there are government stooges working for major corporations like Monsanto and Halliburton, then giving them preferential treatment) isn't doing us any favors either.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

aerius wrote: 2017-12-10 07:23pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-12-10 06:49pm So you admit that you presume all media is false until proven otherwise (unless, I presume, it fits your biases)?

That's a handy way to dismiss any viewpoint you don't want to listen to without actually having to put any thought or analysis into it.
Words, can you read them? Apparently not.
Can you post without ad hominem? Apparently not.
Let me spell this out for you. All mainstream media stories are taken with a dumptruck full of salt until I can track down the original sources to verify them.
Exactly.

You engage in sweeping generalizations, treating all the media (oops-"mainstream media", which conveniently lets you exclude sources that appeal to you from such criticism) as a homogenous, equally-unreliable whole, with no consideration for the credibility of individual journalists or organizations, or specific circumstances.

I consider this a very dangerous attitude, because it plays into an ongoing anti-media narrative being perpetuated by those in power for the purpose of undermining the freedom of the press.
It's called doing your due diligence when the media refuses to do it. What I want is the truth, i don't care if it fits my biases or preconceptions, the facts are what they are.
Due diligence is all well and good, but "due diligence" is not the same as "assume to false until proven otherwise".
My viewpoints can change to fit the facts because I'm an adult.
Can I hold you to that when the Mueller investigation is over?
Unlike you, I'm not an emotionally dysfunctional windbag who needs to prove his self-worth on the internet by showing how hard he can hate on Trump, the Alt-Right, or whatever the cause of the day is.
:lol:

My opinions of Trump and the Alt. Reich are not about proving anything about myself. First and foremost, its about calling out a man and movement who, I believe, are attempting to turn my country (which also happens to be the most powerful nation on Earth) into a fascistic dictatorship with Trump as the dictator. I'm sorry if you find it impossible to understand that I could be speaking out of genuine concern for the state of my country and the world.

Whereas you apparently prefer to point and laugh while actively propagating Trumpian/Alt. Reich propaganda, because I guess "some men just want to watch the world burn."
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

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mr friendly guy wrote: 2017-12-10 07:53pm I think this kind of shit pre dated the far right discrediting campaign Simon. The Zimmerman case Aerius cites was before that. The bad reporting of the Russian / Georgian war in 2008 was before the discrediting campaign. The WMDs in Iraq rubbish was even earlier. The shit has finally come home to roost. The problem is when people point this out we are accused of supporting Trump or <geopolitical rival here> by people as a cheap ad hominem instead of looking at the evidence.
It goes even further back, but even I had a laugh at people defending a combination of trash and axe-grinding journalism because I've read enough threads here about people bashing Fox News into shit and laughing their asses off at them (me included) for getting caught with their pants down multiple times over the years. I mean, was 9/11 and the ensuing clusterfuck of "everything" that long ago? Guess it was.
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-12-11 02:52pm
aerius wrote: 2017-12-10 07:23pmWords, can you read them? Apparently not.
Can you post without ad hominem? Apparently not.
That was not an ad hominem. That was an insult. Even if it was left at that, and the rest of the post hadn't made an argument, it still would not have been an ad hominem. It would have just been an insult deprived of an argument.

No judgements to either side, just saying.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

You're probably right. My apologies.

That said, I have a real problem with our current culture of reflexive cynicism and dismissal towards essential democratic institutions, including the free press. Criticism is right, criticism is essential. But constructive criticism is specific, and nuanced. Broad stereotypes and reflexive condemnation or suspicion of entire classes of institutions do not hold anyone to account, or encourage reform. They just drag everything down into the muck, until we get a situation where something is dismissed simply for being "mainstream", where (in consequence of that) dangerous ideas are embraced simply for being fringe or radical, and where half the populace exhibits approximately zero ability to discern truth from fiction, or good from evil. To where, to pick an obvious though not directly related example, millions of voters can still argue, even after the tax bill vote, that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans, and just as much corporate stooges.

Despots and would-be despots are well-aware of this, of course. There is a reason that both Alt. Rightists and Vladimir Putin play the false equivalency rhetoric to the hilt.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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TheFeniX
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by TheFeniX »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-12-11 04:00pmThat said, I have a real problem with our current culture of reflexive cynicism and dismissal towards essential democratic institutions, including the free press. Criticism is right, criticism is essential. But constructive criticism is specific, and nuanced. Broad stereotypes and reflexive condemnation or suspicion of entire classes of institutions do not hold anyone to account, or encourage reform. They just drag everything down into the muck, until we get a situation where something is dismissed simply for being "mainstream", where (in consequence of that) dangerous ideas are embraced simply for being fringe or radical, and where half the populace exhibits approximately zero ability to discern truth from fiction, or good from evil.
And yet this lead to a comedian, John Stewart, being the most trusted man in news forever. It is not all bad. We can't sit here and abide "less bad" because we have "more bad" when we need "more better." Just because CNN isn't as terrible as Fox News does not mean they shouldn't be ruthlessly dragged through the mud for their shenanigans. We should mock them for being dumb and stupid and dumb because that's what you do. If they can't get us honest info and would instead prefer to grind the axe, what good are they?

And this is the Internet age. So... they need to up their game.

I can't recall (or find) the thread, but everyone here had a real good laugh when Fox News supposedly found the smoking gun that proved Obama was a Muslim and not born in the U.S. And they ate so. much. shit. and it was so damn hilarious. Be better, I guess, is what I'm saying. Don't want to be lumped in with Faux News: don't act like them.

If any one of them had any balls, they would have dragged Obama through the mud for years just on his Patriot Act extensions, passing the buck on education, and propensity for Drone Striking the shit out of brown people. But he was (D) and not (R) so he gets a pass for some reason.
To where, to pick an obvious though not directly related example, millions of voters can still argue, even after the tax bill vote, that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans, and just as much corporate stooges.
Well, at least on fiscal issues: if you're middle-class the Democrats and Republicans all blend into one blob of "fuck the middle class." Because, even though the Democrats have hold-outs and the GOP has none, that's the main thrust of all their economic policies. And this isn't a new thing, I can't think of a single tax plan I've read in my short life, going back to Bill Clinton (we read up in high school) that didn't boil down to "fuck the middle class."

At this point, the only reason when, gun to my head, I side with Democrats is that at least on social issues: they aren't trying to be Cobra Commander.

EDIT: I didn't watch GI Joe, so I need to instead say "The Aldmeri Dominion" to nerd this up a bit more. They were Elven Supremacists who think all the other races should bow to them. Probably fits better anyway.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

TheFeniX wrote: 2017-12-11 04:45pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-12-11 04:00pmThat said, I have a real problem with our current culture of reflexive cynicism and dismissal towards essential democratic institutions, including the free press. Criticism is right, criticism is essential. But constructive criticism is specific, and nuanced. Broad stereotypes and reflexive condemnation or suspicion of entire classes of institutions do not hold anyone to account, or encourage reform. They just drag everything down into the muck, until we get a situation where something is dismissed simply for being "mainstream", where (in consequence of that) dangerous ideas are embraced simply for being fringe or radical, and where half the populace exhibits approximately zero ability to discern truth from fiction, or good from evil.
And yet this lead to a comedian, John Stewart, being the most trusted man in news forever. It is not all bad. We can't sit here and abide "less bad" because we have "more bad" when we need "more better." Just because CNN isn't as terrible as Fox News does not mean they shouldn't be ruthlessly dragged through the mud for their shenanigans. We should mock them for being dumb and stupid and dumb because that's what you do. If they can't get us honest info and would instead prefer to grind the axe, what good are they?
Much as I love Jon Stewart, he's partly responsible for this mess too, as he was a frequent spokesman of the "both sides' idiocy IIRC.

And again, I completely agree that media should be held accountable when it fucks up. But there's a difference between that and assuming its incompetent or dishonest until proven otherwise, which seems to be the attitude a lot of people take. That's not constructive criticism- its collective guilt resulting in knee-jerk hostility.
And this is the Internet age. So... they need to up their game.
Well, a lot of internet journalism is utter shit too. But the internet does ensure that mistakes will be propagated as widely as possible, and that when you fuck up, you can't just pretend it never happened.
I can't recall (or find) the thread, but everyone here had a real good laugh when Fox News supposedly found the smoking gun that proved Obama was a Muslim and not born in the U.S. And they ate so. much. shit. and it was so damn hilarious. Be better, I guess, is what I'm saying. Don't want to be lumped in with Faux News: don't act like them.
The difference is:

Other media organizations make mistakes out of carelessness, with overt lies being comparatively rare. Fox overtly lies routinely.

But I agree, others should not be given a free pass.
If any one of them had any balls, they would have dragged Obama through the mud for years just on his Patriot Act extensions, passing the buck on education, and propensity for Drone Striking the shit out of brown people. But he was (D) and not (R) so he gets a pass for some reason.
Oh, please don't tell me you're going to start peddling that "Biased liberal media" narrative. The mainstream media, in America at least, its more Centrist than Left or Right, and more self-interested, I think, or just lazy, than partisan.

CNN and its like are not Democratic Party mouthpieces the way Fox is a Republican Party mouthpiece. It may look that way now, because they're being very hard on Trump, but that's mostly due to the fact that a) Trump can't get out of bed without causing a scandal, and b) Trump is attacking them.

CNN and its like are not highly partisan- certainly not to the extent of something like Fox, which is essentially the unofficial Ministry of Propaganda for the Republican Party. To the extent that they are flawed, it is primarily due, I think, to being self-interested. They (largely) gave Bush a pass in the lead up to Iraq when that fit the prevailing biases, and they (often) fawned over Trump in the primaries, giving him vastly disproportionate coverage because it made a good story.
Well, at least on fiscal issues: if you're middle-class the Democrats and Republicans all blend into one blob of "fuck the middle class." Because, even though the Democrats have hold-outs and the GOP has none, that's the main thrust of all their economic policies. And this isn't a new thing, I can't think of a single tax plan I've read in my short life, going back to Bill Clinton (we read up in high school) that didn't boil down to "fuck the middle class."
AND THIS IS MY POINT.

They aren't remotely the same. Not even on that one issue, and not even close. This isn't simple partisanship speaking: when the tax bill came to a vote, nearly every Republican Senator voted for it. Not one Democrat did. NOT ONE. That alone speaks volumes.

Yes, a lot of Democrats will throw favours to their corporate friends/donors, sometimes at the expense of the American people. But nearly every Democrat, at any level, at least believes that things like Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, and progressive taxation of some sort should exist.

The Democrats aren't perfect, by any means, but their is a world of difference between a party that doesn't do enough to help the poor and middle class, and a party that seems practically dedicated to their destruction, if its policies are any indication. And yet people just keep repeating "They're both just as bad", because its become a dogmatic truism of our age, repeated regardless of its accuracy or inaccuracy.

Even if one is against the Democratic Party, one should be willing to make more precise and specific criticisms, rather than falling back on overly broad denunciations that contribute to a general culture of cynicism and hostility towards the institutions of democratic government.
At this point, the only reason when, gun to my head, I side with Democrats is that at least on social issues: they aren't trying to be Cobra Commander.
To be fair, that's a pretty massive difference, at least if you care about anyone who isn't a straight white Christian conservative man born in the United States.
EDIT: I didn't watch GI Joe, so I need to instead say "The Aldmeri Dominion" to nerd this up a bit more. They were Elven Supremacists who think all the other races should bow to them. Probably fits better anyway.
Yeah, probably.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by aerius »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-12-11 02:52pmMy opinions of Trump and the Alt. Reich are not about proving anything about myself. First and foremost, its about calling out a man and movement who, I believe, are attempting to turn my country (which also happens to be the most powerful nation on Earth) into a fascistic dictatorship with Trump as the dictator. I'm sorry if you find it impossible to understand that I could be speaking out of genuine concern for the state of my country and the world.

Whereas you apparently prefer to point and laugh while actively propagating Trumpian/Alt. Reich propaganda, because I guess "some men just want to watch the world burn."
You do realize that getting your daily 30 minutes of hate out on this board accomplishes ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING. In fact it's worse than nothing since the time you spend posting here could be put to much more productive use in the real world if your goal is to get the racist shitbags out of power.

Let me use small words here, since you're dumber than my pre-school daughter. Damn near everyone on this board, myself included, thinks Trump is a douche and wants the Alt-right shitbags gone. On top of that, there's a very limited audience here, this is not some blog or website with a million viewers. You are preaching on an obscure board with no audience and no influence, you can rant all you want here but it does jack and shit. You're not telling us anything new that we don't already know. Go pester all your local politicians until they are fucking sick of seeing you, organize some protests, boycott and shun the shit out of anyone and anything associated with Trump or Alt-right in any way.

Put it this way, when Stephen Harper and his shitbags were in power, I didn't write 2000 words a day on why he's a shitbag and a threat to the Canadian way of life, I actually did something about it in real life. I arranged meetings and put together presentations for my local MPs and politicians on key issues, and we discussed the key things we could push to get Harper the fuck outta there. I helped organize meetings with everyone from local community members up to major corporate execs to drive our points home with the politicians. Thanks to the work of countless people such as myself, the Harpercons are gone.

But hey, it's easier to get your hate-on on an anonymous message board and call everyone who doesn't hate as hard as you a Nazi lover.
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Re: Another Trump-Russia conspiracy theory media debacle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Not that its any of your fucking business what I do when I'm not on this board, nor is my life the actual topic of this thread, but as a matter of fact, I have spent many, many hours over the last year volunteering, both for Democrats Abroad and the BC Green Party. I'm sure I could do more, but the time I spend on this board (and other, more active sites) is not the extent of my political activism. I just don't usually brag about it here too much, because my life DOESN'T actually revolve around trying to prove something to anonymous dicks on the internet. This is just where I spend my spare time, I guess because I must have a masochistic streak.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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