NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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aerius
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NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

Post by aerius »

Link
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/21/opin ... trump.html
What’s America’s Winning Hand if Russia Plays the China Card?
The two adversaries are growing closer, posing a strategic challenge to the United States.

By The Editorial Board
The editorial board represents the opinions of the board, its editor and the publisher. It is separate from the newsroom and the Op-Ed section.
July 21, 2019

One of the striking warnings in a recent Pentagon white paper on the growing strategic threat from Russia is that its president, Vladimir Putin, could pull a “reverse Nixon” and play his own version of the “China card” with the United States, a reference to the former president’s strategy of playing those two adversaries against each other.

Until recently, any relationship between Russia and China could largely be dismissed as a marriage of convenience with limited impact on American interests. But since Western nations imposed sanctions on Russia after it invaded Ukraine in 2014, Chinese and Russian authorities have increasingly found common cause, disparaging Western-style democracy and offering themselves as alternatives to America’s postwar leadership. Now China and Russia are growing even closer, suggesting a more permanent arrangement that could pose a complex challenge to the United States.

“The world system, and American influence in it, would be completely upended if Moscow and Beijing aligned more closely,” John Arquilla, a professor at the Naval Postgraduate School, wrote in the report, to which Defense Department officials and other analysts contributed.

The latest evidence of warming ties was a meeting last month in Moscow at which Mr. Putin thanked the Chinese leader, Xi Jinping, for enabling the two countries to do more than $100 billion worth of trade in 2018, up 30 percent from the previous year, and an implicit rebuke to America’s trade standoff with China. The two countries also signed more than two dozen agreements. That meeting came shortly after Mr. Xi called Mr. Putin his “best and bosom friend.”
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The leaders have met almost 30 times since 2013. Russia recently agreed to sell China its latest military technology, including S400 surface-to-air missiles and SU-35 fighter jets.

While China and Russia have conducted joint military exercises intermittently for more than a decade, they began naval maneuvers in the Mediterranean in 2012 and last fall, staged what Russia called their biggest war games in decades in eastern Siberia. They plan to hold joint exercises on a regular basis in the future.

With melting ice opening new opportunities for oil and gas exploration, researchers from the two nations recently agreed to open a joint Arctic research center. They often vote alike at the United Nations and have similar positions on Iran and North Korea. Both have become much more active in the Middle East, where Russia is trying to regain its standing as a major power and China is trying to cultivate relations with energy suppliers like Iran.

The Pentagon white paper, and a separate report by the Center for Strategic and International Studies, warn that the United States and its allies are not moving fast enough to counter efforts by Russia and China to foment instability with “gray zone” tactics that fall short of military involvement — the use of proxy forces, political and economic coercion, disinformation, cyberoperations, and jamming technologies against American satellites.

In his State of the Nation address in February, Mr. Putin expressed confidence that ties with China would enhance Russian security and prosperity, especially as he aligns his Eurasian Economic Union plan with China’s ambitious Belt and Road Initiative, a colossal infrastructure program designed to link China with Asia, Africa and Europe.

Given its economic, military and technological trajectory, together with its authoritarian model, China, not Russia, represents by far the greater challenge to American objectives over the long term. That means President Trump is correct to try to establish a sounder relationship with Russia and peel it away from China. But his approach has been ham-handed and at times even counter to American interests and values. America can’t seek warmer relations with a rival power at the price of ignoring its interference in American democracy. Yet even during the Cold War, the United States and the Soviet Union often made progress in one facet of their relationship while they remained in conflict over other aspects.

The United States and Russia could expand their cooperation in space. The United States is already dependent on Russian rockets to reach the International Space Station. They could also continue to work closely in the Arctic, as members of the Arctic Council that has negotiated legally binding agreements governing search and rescue operations and responses to oil spills. And they could revive cooperation on arms control, especially by extending the New Start Treaty. It was encouraging that top State Department officials met their Russian counterparts twice in recent weeks, including in Geneva on Wednesday, although there was no immediate sign that the two sides made any progress on arms control or other major issues.

Given their history, China and Russia may never reach a formal alliance. The two have been divided by war and ideological rivalries and even now compete for influence in East Asia, Central Asia and the Arctic. Their contrasting trajectories would also make an alliance difficult. China is a rising power and the dominant partner; Russia is declining. China has the world’s second largest economy; Russia’s is not even in the top 10.

Still, their shared objectives could increase, further threatening Western interests. America needs to rally its democratic allies, rather than berate them, and project a more confident vision of its own political and economic model.
Clearly, Russian operatives have infiltrated US media and initiated a subversive propaganda program to start a war between the US and China, thus weakening and hopefully eliminating Russia's rivals in world power.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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"But his approach has been ham-handed and at times even count to American interests and values. American can't seek warmer relations with a rival power at the price of ignoring its interference in American democracy."

"Still, their shared objectives could increase, further threatening Western interests. America needs to rally its democratic allies, rather than berate them, and project a more confident vision of its own political and economic model."

While I do not entirely agree with its conclusions, the article appears to actually be a nuanced and reasonable one, not Kremlin apologism, which acknowledges the need to improve relations with Russia without whitewashing the Putin Regime's actions to do so. No reasonable critic of the Putin regime would consider it compromised or pro-Putin, contrary to the image of the Straw Russophobe that aerius is trying to mock. Its actually an interesting read, and its a shame that it was posted for the sake of straw manning and trolling, rather than a fair discussion of its merits.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

Post by Tribble »

aerius wrote:Clearly, Russian operatives have infiltrated US media and initiated a subversive propaganda program to start a war between the US and China, thus weakening and hopefully eliminating Russia's rivals in world power.
Two ways to look at this:

I take you at face value, in which case you're being an idiot as it's clear that the article is not about Russian influence on US media, nor is it remotely trying to suggest to start a war with China.

or

I assume you're trolling, presumably as some kind of mockery of one of TRR's threads... in which case your both being an idiot and wasting people's time.

Which one is it?

TRR's news/politics threads tend to be ridiculous and often come across as hyperventilating, but at least there is a level of sincerity. There's no need for you to add to things with troll threads, if that is what you were intending.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

Post by aerius »

1) I'm having fun

2) It's an interesting article

3) Broader implications in foreign & domestic policy.
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4) If, IF similar articles start popping up in other US media outlets, we'll have the pleasure of seeing Orwell's Ministry of Truth in real life. Eurasia is our friend, we've always been at war with Eastasia.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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Hardly that. I don't see the massive contradiction that you seem to think you're pointing out here. The NYT is acknowledging the crimes of the Russian government, and that it poses a threat. They are arguing that China poses a greater threat (debatable, in my opinion), and they are arguing that we would benefit from closer relations with Russia, but not at the price of accepting or condoning Russian attacks on our system of government. This strikes me as a reasonable, nuanced view that is likely broadly in line with most mainstream sentiment. If it seems contradictory or backpeddling to you, then it is probably because you have bought into your own straw man, and are fixated on the idea of McCarthyist Russophobes clamouring for war with Russia. Nobody wants that (well, okay, there are probably some people who want that- you can find a few dip shits that will support anything).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

Post by aerius »

You don't find it interesting at all that the tone of the NYT editorials has changed from a steady stream of this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/15/opin ... putin.html
Just last week at a joint press conference with British Prime Minister Theresa May, Trump said:

“I think I would have a very good relationship with Putin if we spend time together. After watching the rigged witch-hunt yesterday, I think it really hurts our country and our relationship with Russia. I hope we can have a good relationship with Russia.”

Now Trump is set to pursue just such a relationship as he meets one-on-one with the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, on Monday in Finland. As Trump said earlier this month at a rally:

“Will he be prepared? Will he be prepared? And I might even end up having a good relationship, but they’re going, ‘Will President Trump be prepared? You know, President Putin is K.G.B. and this and that.’ You know what? Putin’s fine. He’s fine. We’re all fine. We’re people.”

Actually, none of this is fine. None of it! Trump should be directing all resources at his disposal to punish Russia for the attacks and prevent future ones. But he is not.
To that in the article in my first post? Which ties in to point #3 in my previous post. Proper relations with Russia cannot happen while there's a constant state of anti-Russia hysteria in the US. We may, key word, may, be seeing the beginning of a less hysterical and more rational portrayal of Russia in the domestic media. If this is a trend and not a one-off, it means someone has figured out point #3 and started putting the ground work for a policy shift, and that is a good thing.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

Post by The Romulan Republic »

aerius wrote: 2019-07-24 01:06am You don't find it interesting at all that the tone of the NYT editorials has changed from a steady stream of this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/15/opin ... putin.html
Just last week at a joint press conference with British Prime Minister Theresa May, Trump said:

“I think I would have a very good relationship with Putin if we spend time together. After watching the rigged witch-hunt yesterday, I think it really hurts our country and our relationship with Russia. I hope we can have a good relationship with Russia.”

Now Trump is set to pursue just such a relationship as he meets one-on-one with the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, on Monday in Finland. As Trump said earlier this month at a rally:

“Will he be prepared? Will he be prepared? And I might even end up having a good relationship, but they’re going, ‘Will President Trump be prepared? You know, President Putin is K.G.B. and this and that.’ You know what? Putin’s fine. He’s fine. We’re all fine. We’re people.”

Actually, none of this is fine. None of it! Trump should be directing all resources at his disposal to punish Russia for the attacks and prevent future ones. But he is not.
To that in the article in my first post? Which ties in to point #3 in my previous post. Proper relations with Russia cannot happen while there's a constant state of anti-Russia hysteria in the US. We may, key word, may, be seeing the beginning of a less hysterical and more rational portrayal of Russia in the domestic media. If this is a trend and not a one-off, it means someone has figured out point #3 and started putting the ground work for a policy shift, and that is a good thing.
First, I would ask if the same writers wrote the two articles. I would not take it as a sign of hypocrisy or self-contradiction for a paper to publish more than one viewpoint, but rather as a sign of good journalism.

Moreover, the newer article does not reject the idea that Russia is a threat or engaged in election interference, or that we should challenge Russia on it. It may be less aggressive in its tone, but its substance does not seem strikingly different, from what you posted.

In any case, it is not "anti-Russia hysteria" to acknowledge the crimes of the Russian government, nor is challenging Russia on certain points incompatible with negotiating with it on others. This is a point that apologists for Trump's foreign policy always skate over when it comes to his approach to dictators- diplomacy with dictators does not require that we uncritically accept their line, excuse their crimes, and constantly praise them. That's not diplomacy, its pandering. There's a difference.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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The thing that people here forget is that... well... China and Russia really, really, really, really, really, really, really hate each other's guts ever since the death of Stalin on top of China being very upset that Russia took Siberia away from them during the days of the Tzar (one thing that I see in much of Asia and Indochina is that the various ethnicities there can hold grudges for generations if they so choose). That is why Nixon was able to pull what he did with China when he did.

Right now China is undergoing a political shift to the more militant/imperialist faction (hence China really going for a modern military with power projection and all the money being put into Africa). The previous political group that we've been working with was more economically minded...
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-07-24 04:19am(one thing that I see in much of Asia and Indochina is that the various ethnicities there can hold grudges for generations if they so choose).
Please, GAF. Tell us more about how entire ethnic groups in Asia hold grudges and how this differs from non-Asian ethnic groups
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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Ralin wrote: 2019-07-24 04:22am Please, GAF. Tell us more about how entire ethnic groups in Asia hold grudges and how this differs from non-Asian ethnic groups
From what I can tell through my dive through history, most non-Asian ethnic groups tend to have grudges that last a generation or two at most. At least, enough to wage wars with.

Although there are exceptions and oddities to this...
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-07-24 06:08am
Ralin wrote: 2019-07-24 04:22am Please, GAF. Tell us more about how entire ethnic groups in Asia hold grudges and how this differs from non-Asian ethnic groups
From what I can tell through my dive through history, most non-Asian ethnic groups tend to have grudges that last a generation or two at most. At least, enough to wage wars with.

Although there are exceptions and oddities to this...
And the point that you are racially stereotyping Asians goes whoosh over your head.

Please stop. You're making me agree with Ralin, and that's just embarrassing.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-07-24 06:08am
Ralin wrote: 2019-07-24 04:22am Please, GAF. Tell us more about how entire ethnic groups in Asia hold grudges and how this differs from non-Asian ethnic groups
From what I can tell through my dive through history, most non-Asian ethnic groups tend to have grudges that last a generation or two at most. At least, enough to wage wars with.

Although there are exceptions and oddities to this...
I think your dive through history may have been a little perfunctory, then. European, Levantine and African history is absolutely jampacked with grudges lasting centuries, some of them extremely notorious (for instance, the Franco-English rivalry may ring a bell... And the Anglo-Welsh... and the Anglo-Irish... and the Anglo-Scottish... And for something not involving the English, though us englishmen are indeed a quarrelous bunch if history is anything to go by, Rome-Carthage.) - and, just like Europe's, Asian history is full of grudges that lasted a few decades before resolving and grudges that collapsed within a few short years of a new political, religious or economic reality that made it attractive to do so.

So, not only are you embarking on a weirdly racialized argument, but you're doing so on a fundamentally unsound basis.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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...

... ...

... ... ...

Fuck, I mixed up my regions. That's what I get for posting so early in the morning...

... yeah the only region that gives Asia a run for its money in the grudges is Europe... and if I remember right they are tied for first place in the 'grudge match in abundance' rankings.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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I'm curious which group you could possibly intend to impute an innate ethnic tendency towards violent grudges to, then.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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loomer wrote: 2019-07-24 06:32am I'm curious which group you could possibly intend to impute an innate ethnic tendency towards violent grudges to, then.
While not as clear cut, with what I've dived into... but some of what I've seen and read suggests that ethnic groups that still see themselves as tribes have a tendency to go for violence for their grudges.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-07-24 06:36am
loomer wrote: 2019-07-24 06:32am I'm curious which group you could possibly intend to impute an innate ethnic tendency towards violent grudges to, then.
While not as clear cut, with what I've dived into... but some of what I've seen and read suggests that ethnic groups that still see themselves as tribes have a tendency to go for violence for their grudges.
And non-tribal entities lack this tendency in your reading? So, for instance, a conventional Westphalian state in the late 17th century is less inclined to utilize violence to achieve revenge on its perceived enemies? What about non-tribal feudal states c. 1200 or so? Were the Australian tribal entities before and during colonization more, or less, likely to engage in revenge violence than the urban English poor? Than the Bedouin tribes?

Further, how precisely do you draw the line between a tribe and a non-tribal ethnic entity in your readings? At what point do, for instance, the Irish cease to be a tribal people?
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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loomer wrote: 2019-07-24 06:45am And non-tribal entities lack this tendency in your reading? So, for instance, a conventional Westphalian state in the late 17th century is less inclined to utilize violence to achieve revenge on its perceived enemies? What about non-tribal feudal states c. 1200 or so? Were the Australian tribal entities before and during colonization more, or less, likely to engage in revenge violence than the urban English poor? Than the Bedouin tribes?

Further, how precisely do you draw the line between a tribe and a non-tribal ethnic entity in your readings? At what point do, for instance, the Irish cease to be a tribal people?
My dives were... less than clear cut on the matter, hence why I said it wasn't as clear cut. Then again, I've been trying to widen my dives into history as of late but I've always had history as a hobby, not something I want to do with my life.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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I'd like to know the criteria for when an ethnic group can be said to hold a grudge and how you know when that criteria is met. Give us a minimum percentage. Ballpark it.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-07-24 06:48am
loomer wrote: 2019-07-24 06:45am And non-tribal entities lack this tendency in your reading? So, for instance, a conventional Westphalian state in the late 17th century is less inclined to utilize violence to achieve revenge on its perceived enemies? What about non-tribal feudal states c. 1200 or so? Were the Australian tribal entities before and during colonization more, or less, likely to engage in revenge violence than the urban English poor? Than the Bedouin tribes?

Further, how precisely do you draw the line between a tribe and a non-tribal ethnic entity in your readings? At what point do, for instance, the Irish cease to be a tribal people?
My dives were... less than clear cut on the matter, hence why I said it wasn't as clear cut. Then again, I've been trying to widen my dives into history as of late but I've always had history as a hobby, not something I want to do with my life.
My recommendation to you is that it is generally best to avoid making sweeping assertions as to the patterns of behaviour of ethnic groups spanning entire continents where there isn't clear, strong evidence to support the position. Doubly so when you attempt to utilize hobbyist historical study to make those assertions around modern populations.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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Ralin wrote: 2019-07-24 06:49am I'd like to know the criteria for when an ethnic group can be said to hold a grudge and how you know when that criteria is met. Give us a minimum percentage. Ballpark it.
First, it has been ages since I've read such history material and I don't have said material on hand; and second, what little that I remember cuts it at least six different ways...
loomer wrote: 2019-07-24 06:53am My recommendation to you is that it is generally best to avoid making sweeping assertions as to the patterns of behaviour of ethnic groups spanning entire continents where there isn't clear, strong evidence to support the position. Doubly so when you attempt to utilize hobbyist historical study to make those assertions around modern populations.
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Re: NYT infiltrated by Russian sympathizers

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GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-07-24 06:58am
Ralin wrote: 2019-07-24 06:49am I'd like to know the criteria for when an ethnic group can be said to hold a grudge and how you know when that criteria is met. Give us a minimum percentage. Ballpark it.
First, it has been ages since I've read such history material and I don't have said material on hand; and second, what little that I remember cuts it at least six different ways...
List them. Show off the grand historical knowledge you claim to have.
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