Accidental Deaths

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-04-06 01:22am

Thereis no disrespect to anyone who has been killed in Iraq, I have always supported the us Military and I hope they are successful in their work.

My concern is the significant amount of deaths relating to mechinical failures and accidental crashes though. Sure the sands of the desert screw with every bit of equipment it can get into but with Helicopters crashing so often in this conflict and with Humvee acidents takin a toll on Coalition forces it seems to me that the US is sending potentially fauly equipment into a conflict where lives are at stake.

Is what i'm saying making any sense? Or Am I wrong is thinking that the number of accidental deaths is higher than it should be.

(maybe that isn't the best way of putting it, accidental deaths should never hapen in the first place, oh well)

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-04-06 01:26am

Accidents happen back in the states. They happen in civilian life too. At least in the last Gulf war, the death rate was lower during the conflict than it was during peacetime.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-04-06 01:52am

::Shrugs:: Every time I pose this question, I get a whole bunch of military men screaming their lungs out at me about how there are thousands of bombs dropped successfully, and that despite the fact that the civilian death toll is creeping towards 1,000, they're still doing a bang-up job.

But when numerous stories keep coming back about trigger-happy pilots firing on the wrong targets (most of the time at Coalition tanks,) I get to wondering what the answer to this question really is...

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-04-06 01:58am

our accuracy is the best it's ever been. but our pilots are human.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-04-06 03:06am

Queeb Salaron wrote:::Shrugs:: Every time I pose this question, I get a whole bunch of military men screaming their lungs out at me about how there are thousands of bombs dropped successfully, and that despite the fact that the civilian death toll is creeping towards 1,000, they're still doing a bang-up job.

Compare that to the 5,000 civilian Kurds intentionally gased by Saddam.

But when numerous stories keep coming back about trigger-happy pilots firing on the wrong targets (most of the time at Coalition tanks,) I get to wondering what the answer to this question really is...

The coalition has lost enough tanks to count on one hand. The Iraqis have had whole divisions reduced to less than half combat effectiveness by American airpower. A few days ago a single B-52 took out an entire Iraqi armor column in one attack.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-04-06 03:06am

Queeb Salaron wrote:But when numerous stories keep coming back about trigger-happy pilots firing on the wrong targets (most of the time at Coalition tanks,) I get to wondering what the answer to this question really is...

Well excuse our troops for being human.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-04-06 03:12am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote: Well excuse our troops for being human.

Look, I don't know the whole story, so I'm gonna shut my mouth about this. Everyone with military experience obviously knows the ins and outs of war better than I do, pacifist that I am. There are no examples made available for us citizens. That is to say that 1,000 civilian deaths sounds pretty high to us because we don't know what is considered a high number of civilian casualties in war. Same goes for the number of missed targets, and the number of friendly attacks.

Besides that, I can understand that our troops are human and that they naturally make mistakes. It just seems to me that they're "human" more often than they are accurate. But I'm probably wrong.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-04-06 03:18am

Im more concerned about the Mechanical failures than pilot error and such. Our pilots do they best they can and are under extreme pressures during those circumstances, but like the tragedies with the Sea Kings during the first few days of the war.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-04-06 03:22am

Queeb Salaron wrote:Besides that, I can understand that our troops are human and that they naturally make mistakes. It just seems to me that they're "human" more often than they are accurate. But I'm probably wrong.

Considering the sheer number of sorties being flown everyday, the bombs dropped-to-civilians killed ratio is impossibly small, more than in any other war ever fought.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-04-06 03:40am

OK, DGG, we've all heard that argument before. No need to go round the mulberry bush again.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-04-06 02:37pm

I read a book about police officers under pressure on the job, and stories about cops accidentally shooting themselves while "cleaning their guns".

It turns out of course, that they committed suicide. Anyone who's ever cleaned a gun before knows it is impossible to shoot yourself, unless you're a complete idiot. The "cleaning their guns" story was usually released to the press to protect the families or the department.

I have smiliar doubts about 90% of these helecopters going down due to "mechanical failure". Bullshit; they were shot down.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-04-06 02:58pm

Accidents happen all the time, no matter where you are. They have mechanical failures, crashes, and so on all the time in the States I'm sure (military members can no doubt expound upon this greater); they just don't get the same coverage that they do in the war.

That, and they are probably being used FAR more heavily in a war (obviously) than in peace time training, and higher-use=more problems.

There's no reason to suspect that aircraft and helos going down are due to enemy fire as opposed to the reported mechanical failures, unless there is some evidence to the contrary.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-04-06 03:02pm

Lord Poe wrote:I have smiliar doubts about 90% of these helecopters going down due to "mechanical failure". Bullshit; they were shot down.

Some of them perhaps but I don't think so. But most are no where near Iraqi territory to begin with. It's just a hell for leather ops tempo that's causing a lot of the problems. Really there are the same amount of crashes in Iraq as there have been stateside in recent months.

We're simply doing much much more than usual (and in a much higher profile manner) and it's taking it's toll on men and equipment.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-04-06 03:06pm

Queeb Salaron wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote: Well excuse our troops for being human.
Look, I don't know the whole story, so I'm gonna shut my mouth about this. Everyone with military experience obviously knows the ins and outs of war better than I do, pacifist that I am. There are no examples made available for us citizens. That is to say that 1,000 civilian deaths sounds pretty high to us because we don't know what is considered a high number of civilian casualties in war. Same goes for the number of missed targets, and the number of friendly attacks.

Besides that, I can understand that our troops are human and that they naturally make mistakes. It just seems to me that they're "human" more often than they are accurate. But I'm probably wrong.

Wanna see high numbers of civilian deaths? Look at ANY battle during WW2 that took place in an urban area.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-06 05:12pm

When you consider how many missions are being flown and the conditions, the accident rates are actually not that bad. Every year the US loses several helicopters and fixed wing aircraft in accidents. As for traffic accidents, there where 3000 during Desert Shield/Storm. There going to happen, just look at American roads.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-04-06 05:13pm

IT was said they flew 3000 sorties yesterday alone.. So the ratios are bound to catch up and well as the conditions and human fatuige..

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-06 05:21pm

theski wrote:IT was said they flew 3000 sorties yesterday alone.. So the ratios are bound to catch up and well as the conditions and human fatuige..

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-06 05:23pm

theski wrote:IT was said they flew 3000 sorties yesterday alone.. So the ratios are bound to catch up and well as the conditions and human fatuige..

Most people don't realize the US lost over four thousand helicopters in Vietnam, and that a large percentage of them where lost in accidents or mechanical failure. That numbers not counting aircraft which where recovered and repaired. However once you consider the millions of hours they flew, it works out to an incredibly low loss rate.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-04-06 06:00pm

thats the kind of information I was lookin for, thanks.