Sharon says Israel willing to give up settlements for peace.

[Alex Moon]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84043,00.html

JERUSALEM — Israel will hand over some Jewish settlements in the West Bank for peace, but the Palestinians must give up on their demand for refugees to be allowed to return to their former homes in Israel, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said in an interview published Sunday.

I know there is a moritorium on Israel/Palestine Debates, but this is getting a fair amount of airtime, and seems like a pretty big step in the region.

[Darth Wong]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84043,00.html

JERUSALEM — Israel will hand over some Jewish settlements in the West Bank for peace, but the Palestinians must give up on their demand for refugees to be allowed to return to their former homes in Israel, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said in an interview published Sunday.

I know there is a moritorium on Israel/Palestine Debates, but this is getting a fair amount of airtime, and seems like a pretty big step in the region.

Yes and no. It appears like a big step for Sharon to offer to give up settlements, until you notice that he says he'll give up some settlements in return for the Palestinians giving up all rights of return. This won't change anything; he and the rest of Israel still lay claim to the right of settlement on Palestinian land, thus making it de facto part of Israel and the occupied territories an apartheid zone.

[Archaic`]

Of course, getting people to recognise that fact is harder than it sounds. *Sighs*

[Durandal]

Yes and no. It appears like a big step for Sharon to offer to give up settlements, until you notice that he says he'll give up some settlements in return for the Palestinians giving up all rights of return. This won't change anything; he and the rest of Israel still lay claim to the right of settlement on Palestinian land, thus making it de facto part of Israel and the occupied territories an apartheid zone.

And when the Palestinians reject the proposal, they can be painted as "unreasonable."

[Queeb Salaron]

Why is Sharon refusing to let Palestinians go home? I mean, it can't be that he LIKES having Palestinians around... What use does he have for them? Are they like POWs, without the W?

[Stormbringer]

I think this is a ploy by Sharon. The key word in his proposal is as Mike notes, some. I think it'll be a totally one sided proposal. I can't imagine that Sharon would really do that, he's too much of a hardliner/extremist.

That said I think the Palestinian's should sit down and begin negotiations. With the amount of support behind it they'd be fools to reject it out of hand. It'll do far more good for their cause if the sit down and begin real negotiations (with out the threat of terrorism) and try. They don't have to accept anything but they do need to try.

I don't think either side will negotiate in good faith though. Both sides are simply too deeply entrenched to actually make the kind of concessions necessary for peace.

[Durandal]

I think this is a ploy by Sharon. The key word in his proposal is as Mike notes, some. I think it'll be a totally one sided proposal. I can't imagine that Sharon would really do that, he's too much of a hardliner/extremist.

That said I think the Palestinian's should sit down and begin negotiations. With the amount of support behind it they'd be fools to reject it out of hand. It'll do far more good for their cause if the sit down and begin real negotiations (with out the threat of terrorism) and try. They don't have to accept anything but they do need to try.

I don't think either side will negotiate in good faith though. Both sides are simply too deeply entrenched to actually make the kind of concessions necessary for peace.

The problem with the Palestinians is that they have no idea how to work public opinion. They set themselves up for being accused to being totally unreasonable extremists by outrightly rejecting every plan the Israelis propose. If they're ever going to get what they want, they'll need to take some of the international support away from Israel.

[AdmiralKanos]

The problem with the Palestinians is that they have no idea how to work public opinion. They set themselves up for being accused to being totally unreasonable extremists by outrightly rejecting every plan the Israelis propose. If they're ever going to get what they want, they'll need to take some of the international support away from Israel.

They actually have a fair bit of international support ... outside of America.

[Joe]

To be honest I doubt whether most Americans (outside of the apocalyptic fundies) give a damn either way. Unfortunately, the fundies are loud and obnoxious, and so the fundies are heard.

[Durandal]

The problem with the Palestinians is that they have no idea how to work public opinion. They set themselves up for being accused to being totally unreasonable extremists by outrightly rejecting every plan the Israelis propose. If they're ever going to get what they want, they'll need to take some of the international support away from Israel.

They actually have a fair bit of international support ... outside of America.

That's mostly in the Muslim world, though. As far as I know, most of the EU supports Israel, right?

And, Durran, most Americans really don't care, but they'll usually side with Israel if pressed, or else they're accused of being anti-semites. I've seen it even in my own sister, who was surprised that I accused Israel of being a racist state, because her best friend happens to be Jewish. There's a mentality going around of "criticizing Israel = anti-semitism."

[Darth PhysBod]

Well who knows?, negotiations have to start somewhere and the situation isn't going to be solved unilaterally by one side or the other. Maybe with the new Palestinian prime-minister and the US commitment to a Palestinian state they could start sooner rather than later.

[Oberleutnant]

That's mostly in the Muslim world, though. As far as I know, most of the EU supports Israel, right?

Sorry, but you're dead wrong there. EU is unanimously supporting the Palestinians. For example, in 1995 EU donated $230 and 120 million euros last winter because of the deepening economic crisis in the region. Since November 2000, the Palestinian Authority has received 10 million dollars worth of aid per month from EU. In addition to the direct aid, there are also various project aids such as development of the Gaza port. Aid given by the Muslim nations isn't even half of what comes from our tax money.

Because of this, Israel usually completely ignores what the EU says.

[Darth PhysBod]

That's mostly in the Muslim world, though. As far as I know, most of the EU supports Israel, right?

I think you'll find the EU supports the Palestinian’s more than the Israeli's, whether or not that’s out of genuine concern or simply a case of opposing the U.S may be another matter.

[Oberleutnant]

For example, in 1995 EU donated $230 million to the Palestinians, and some 120 million euros last winter because of the deepening economic crisis in the region.
------

I pwn!

[Ted]

There's a mentality going around of "criticizing Israel = anti-semitism."

There's another mentality going around that Jews are the ONLY Semites, which is dead wrong. Arabs are Semites as well, hell, most of the Jews dont look Semetic at all, more like pure Caucasians.

[HemlockGrey]

This is just another cog in the Israeli PR machine; it makes Sharon look like he's willing to deal, and no matter the outcome, he can't lose- if the Palestinians accept, he loses one or two settlements, gets a huge PR boost, and the Palestinians have just lost any chance they have of furthering their cause.

If the Palestinians decline, he can, as others said, paint them as unreasonable and crack down even further.

[fgalkin]

There's a mentality going around of "criticizing Israel = anti-semitism."

There's another mentality going around that Jews are the ONLY Semites, which is dead wrong. Arabs are Semites as well, hell, most of the Jews dont look Semetic at all, more like pure Caucasians.

And there is another mentality going around that hides behind the term "semites", while everyone knows that the term anti-semiticm has been historically applied to the persecution of Jews.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stormbringer]

That's mostly in the Muslim world, though. As far as I know, most of the EU supports Israel, right?

The EU supports Israel in that it believes they have the right to exist and live in peace. But they are equally determined to protect the innocents among the Palestinians and secure an equitable peace solution. They do tend to take the Palestianian's and as a group the EU contributes more to Palestinians than any one else (including all the Arab world).

[Zathras]

OK, if I'm wrong, please correct me, but aren't these territories ones that Israel took from the Palestinians in the first place? And now giving them back is such a very kind thing to do that the Palestinians must make concessions of their own?

[EmperorSolo51]

OK, if I'm wrong, please correct me, but aren't these territories ones that Israel took from the Palestinians in the first place? And now giving them back is such a very kind thing to do that the Palestinians must make concessions of their own?

Actually, these Territories were taken from Jordan in the Six Day War in 1967. In 1949, after the Arabs lost the War of Israeli Independence, Jordan Annexed the West Bank. As the Israelis were making historic military gains in the Sinai during the first 3 days of the war, King Abdullah was convinced by the Egyptians that the Israelis were loosing the war (he did not know that the Egyptian Airforce had been decimated by the small Israeli Airforce and that Israeli troops were overunning nearly half of the Sinai in a repeat of the Suez War.) decided to enter the conflict. Jordanian troops invaded the New city of Jerusalem but were thrown out by the Israeli forces stationed in the city. Israeli forces then begin to call all of thier reserves to fight a three front war (Sinai,Golan Hieghts, West Bank). Israeli forces invaded the west Bank and secured the old city of Jerusalem on the first day of fighting and three days later had troops poised to cross the Jordan River and invade Jordan propper. Israeli Forces were also poised to cross the Suez and take Cairo and the road to Damascus was also wide open by the end of the six day war. The only thing that stopped the Israelis from conducting anymore military operations was that it's economy was on the verge of collapsing becuase nearly everybody that held a job wether it be a business owner, to a company CEO, to a simple milkman was in the army.reserves.

[Steve]

Everything is proceeding as I have planned.

[MKSheppard]

I know there is a moritorium on Israel/Palestine Debates, but this is getting a fair amount of airtime, and seems like a pretty big step in the region.

Wont' happen. Why?

Because of Israel's fucked up governmental system.

Word to the wise: Never fucking base your government on the westminister
model, or else fundies and whackjobs will infest it.

[TheDarkling]

I think the UK has a far more secular government than the US (Blair doesn't mention god in every single speech, if in fact ever unlike Bush), the problem is not using FPTP like the UK instead they use proportional rep which leads to fringe groups getting seats.

Your inferiority complex with regards to the UK is sad Shep you should try to get over it, being from the USA is nothing to be ashamed of .

[Durandal]

I think the UK has a far more secular government than the US (Blair doesn't mention god in every single speech, if in fact ever unlike Bush), the problem is not using FPTP like the UK instead they use proportional rep which leads to fringe groups getting seats.

Your inferiority complex with regards to the UK is sad Shep you should try to get over it, being from the USA is nothing to be ashamed of .

Whenever I travel overseas, I tell everyone I'm from Canada.

[TheDarkling]

Whenever I travel overseas, I tell everyone I'm from Canada.

Shush, I'm trying to explain to Shep that he need not bash the UK because deep down he feels the US is inferior and believes he needs to redress the balance .

Canadians are better received abroad though, they were polite enough to be granted freedom instead of running about and engaging in a rebellion that frankly just wasn't cricket (consorting with the French for pities sake) .