Communism - should it be banned??

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-05-06 10:29am

I think it's fairly well-known that some countries have banned Fascism and its offshoot ideologies - most notably Germany. (for obvious reasons)

Then I wonder why Communist movements haven't faced the same problems - particularly considering:

1. The ideology of Communism is built upon the idea that human rights are a "petty-bourgeois" concept.
2. Hitler, to a large extent, modelled his regime upon Mussolini's, which in turn was modelled upon the Soviet Union itself. (Mussolini was a former Communist, so he might have gotten access to Lenin's works and picked up his ideas about totalitarianism)
3. The gulags of the afore-mentioned Soviet Union killed far more people than the KZ camps of Nazi Germany. (and that's before we add the )
4. Communists believe that all of society's problems can be solved by limiting individual freedom as much as possible.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from these facts is that Communism is just as dangerous an ideology as Fascism.

Yet, in most European nations, Nazis are met with scorn by anyone except for their fellow Nazis, while starting a left-wing extremist party is not only perfectly legitimate, but also socially acceptable. In fact, very soon a school in my area is home to a political meeting with the youth fronts from two political parties... and one of the parties is SUF, a communist fringe group which actually encourages terrorist activity without getting any complaints from the authorities!

How can this be so?? Are world governments infiltrated by Communists? Or is it just ordinary public ignorance of Communist atrocities??

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-05-06 10:42am

Communism should be outlawed, yes.

The entire affair is based around a system designed to propagate class violence; its actual practical implications are similarly horrific.

This is a particular case in which I'd fully advocate suppression of the Constitutional freedom of expression.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-06 10:46am

And make the God damn Commies martyrs again? Didn't McCarthy's fiasco teach anyone anything? You can't say "boo" about a leftist in the public eye without someone screaming "McCarthyism!" The best way to deal with it is whenever anyone opens their mouth about it, debate their sorry ass into the ground.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-06 11:16am

Banning communism just makes it more attractive to people who are borderline.
"Wow if the government wants it banned then it must really be better then what we've got now."

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-05-06 11:33am

No, communism is damn stupid, even dangerous, but I don't belief that stupid political ideologies should be banned any more then I belief that stupid religions should be banned.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-05-06 11:35am

Slippery slope.

While Communism would gain a few thousand new adherents, you could at least hope to limit secure, public explosure on behalf of World Socialism.

Not that this is easy, mind you. A ban on Communism would be quite similar to Germany's ban on Nazism or America's restrictions on suicide. A declaration of societal values within the judicial code rather than a truly meaningful deterrent for hardliners.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-05-06 01:13pm

RedImperator wrote:You can't say "boo" about a leftist in the public eye without someone screaming "McCarthyism!"

There's quite a difference between merely being left-winged, and being a Communist.

The truth is that most of the US politicians described as "left-winged" by the media would be dismissed by historical communists such as Lenin and Marx as "pawns of the bourgeoisie."

Tom_Aurum · Post by **Tom_Aurum** » 2003-05-06 01:40pm

No.

Oh, and furthermore.

Fuck no.

As it is, I had a good freind who spent the better part of her life in Germany, only moved here at about age 16 or so. Beautiful, intelligent woman, but that's besides the point. I definitely feel that what Germany does with Fascism, while it may have a ideologically rational reason behind it, is as completely wrong as the concept of banning communism. The way they go about it is, among other things, in their history classes teaching national self-hatred and shame, restricting or banning display of the German flag, and other things that are, to put it bluntly, stupid.

So no, we shouldn't ban Communism, and furthermore, I think the original poster is borderline trolling. But who am I to speak, I'm feeding him.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-05-06 01:57pm

NO. Do not ban it, instead push it out into the light and show the masses what a complete and utter failure it is. Hiding it will make it a forbidden pleasure, while exposing it as the fucked up thoughts of mad men that it is will finally put a deathnail in the fucking thing.

and no, I don't feel strongly about it.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-05-06 02:08pm

Tom_Aurum wrote:So no, we shouldn't ban Communism, and furthermore, I think the original poster is borderline trolling. But who am I to speak, I'm feeding him.

Am I a borderline troll?? What's trollish about suggesting that a dangerous, extreme ideology should be banned?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-06 03:10pm

anyone who votes communism to take over deserves whatever happens to them.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-05-06 03:12pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:anyone who votes communism to take over deserves whatever happens to them.

Maybe many supporters of communism - those who live in Communist countries, remember - fear the ideology more than they venerate it, and support it only to avoid the iron hand of the Communist Party's Secret PoliceTM???

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-05-06 03:32pm

Why bother? Communists have very little power in the United States and we already find excuses to smack countries that practice it. As it is, communism is dying on its own.

Besides, the only people that actually practice any real form of communism are folks like Benedictine monks, and it's not like they are dangerous.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-05-06 03:35pm

Thought formed as I was hitting the submit button: Even China is becoming a highly capitalist society, simply because communism is a wretched failure and doesn't work. Like in Vietnam, communism is going away because they actually want to progress as a nation, and doing that nowadays requires a better economic system than they have.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-05-06 03:44pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
RedImperator wrote:You can't say "boo" about a leftist in the public eye without someone screaming "McCarthyism!"
There's quite a difference between merely being left-winged, and being a Communist.

The truth is that most of the US politicians described as "left-winged" by the media would be dismissed by historical communists such as Lenin and Marx as "pawns of the bourgeoisie."

You missed the point. McCarthy tries to run all the Commies out of Hollywood on a rail--50 years later, you can't criticize anyone's left wing politics because they'll scream McCarthyism, even if they're not actually Communists. I know the fucking difference between a left-winger and a Marxist.

Furthermore, free societies tolerate dangerous and stupid ideas. That's the whole damn point. You want to make a precedent now out of outlawing "dangerous" ideaologies?

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-05-06 03:59pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:Besides, the only people that actually practice any real form of communism are folks like Benedictine monks, and it's not like they are dangerous.

What they do would be better termed communalism, not communism.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-05-06 04:08pm

Crayz9000 wrote:What they do would be better termed communalism, not communism.

It's communism, just in a really pure and basic form.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-06 04:23pm

I personally feel that neither should be banned, but yeah, if you're going to ban fascism, don't half-ass it; go all the way and ban communism too. It's only fair.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-06 05:13pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Banning communism just makes it more attractive to people who are borderline.
"Wow if the government wants it banned then it must really be better then what we've got now."

This certainly has created a massive German Nazi Party again, eh?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-05-06 05:26pm

Tom_Aurum wrote:No.

Oh, and furthermore.

Fuck no.

As it is, I had a good freind who spent the better part of her life in Germany, only moved here at about age 16 or so. Beautiful, intelligent woman, but that's besides the point. I definitely feel that what Germany does with Fascism, while it may have a ideologically rational reason behind it, is as completely wrong as the concept of banning communism. The way they go about it is, among other things, in their history classes teaching national self-hatred and shame, restricting or banning display of the German flag, and other things that are, to put it bluntly, stupid.

So no, we shouldn't ban Communism, and furthermore, I think the original poster is borderline trolling. But who am I to speak, I'm feeding him.

As a German, I can say that we are allowed to display our flag whereever, and whenever we want.
Yet we choose not to, and it is frowned upon to have the flag in your garden.

Whereas the Nazi flag, and all other things Nazi like Swastikas, are banned.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-05-06 05:54pm

The problem with Communism is that it's generally not taken to the Soviet extreme.

Whereas Karl Marx preached violent class struggle on the apocalyptic level at least, most Communism is today in fact Socialism, a far less erratic variety of democracy. Not that I have any love for that kind of thing either, mind you, but better pink than red.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-06 05:56pm

Axis Kast wrote:Slippery slope.

Do you even know what "slippery slope" means?!? It is NOT a slippery slope fallacy to point out one possible direct consequence of an act. Please look it up.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-05-06 05:58pm

My argument was that we should ban Communism.

The counter-argument was that banning Communism would result in a corresponding surge of left-wing sympathy. But as Illuminatus pointed out, no such right-wing groups formed all that vocal a bastion after the Germans got rid of Fascism.

Therefore, it's the slippery slope argument. One event causes an unlikely downward trend resulting in the worst possible outcome.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-06 06:06pm

Axis Kast wrote:My argument was that we should ban Communism.

The counter-argument was that banning Communism would result in a corresponding surge of left-wing sympathy. But as Illuminatus pointed out, no such right-wing groups formed all that vocal a bastion after the Germans got rid of Fascism.

At worst, it would be a non sequitur.

Therefore, it's the slippery slope argument. One event causes an unlikely downward trend resulting in the worst possible outcome.

No, a slippery slope argument takes the form "A will cause B, which will cause C, which will cause D, etc. until we reach a very bad end". Simply saying "I think A will cause B" cannot possibly be a slippery slope.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-05-06 06:26pm

If your society has so much to fear from a few communist that you have to ban it, then you have some much more serious problems to deal with.