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Post by Vympel »

Controlling Costs in Tactical Aircraft Programs: CDI Congressional Testimony on the F/A-22

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee:

It is an honor to be here today, and to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate over the Air Force’s F/A-22 aircraft program.

Today’s discussion focuses on recent reports by the General Accounting Office (GAO) about cost growth and technical challenges in the F/A-22 program.

As the GAO reports point out, the F/A-22 program has experienced repeated delays and cost-overruns throughout its history. The most recent reports show that the F/A-22 development program failed to meet specified performance goals in fiscal year 2002, and still faces may technological challenges, including “instability of the avionics software, violent movement, or ‘buffeting,’ of vertical fins, overheating in portions of the aircraft, weakening of materials in the horizontal tail, and the inability to meet airlift support and maintenance requirements.”1

I, like many analysts, believe that cost growth in successive generations of weapons systems is inevitable. Over time, threats increase, and capabilities must be improved correspondingly. New technologies are usually more costly than current technologies. Norman Augustine, former head of Lockheed Martin, warned, only somewhat facetiously, that eventually the entire defense budget would be needed to fund a single aircraft, which would be shared by the Air Force, Navy, and Marines. Professor David Kirkpatrick, of the Defense Engineering Group of University College in London , has said that during the Cold War per unit costs of weapons grew at between 5 percent and 10 percent annually, with the costs of tactical aircraft growing at 10 percent.2

It is also a truism in Washington that the costs of developing new weapons will rise above original estimates. Estimating costs of as yet non-existent technologies is an imprecise science. Some less generous, or more suspicious, analysts have asserted that defense firms intentionally underestimate costs in order to improve their odds of securing a new contract, knowing that program cost growth for Pentagon programs is, by and large, and accepted norm. Either way, program cost increases for DoD weapons routinely reach between 15 percent and 30 percent over the development and production of a given system.

If one agrees with the precept that cost growth in weapons systems – either from one generation to the next, or within a given program, or both ‑ is inevitable, then it seems that the question becomes: how does one determine what is reasonable growth, and what is unacceptable? Further, in attempting to answer this question, it critical to discuss whether strategies that might limit cost growth are applicable, and if so, whether they have been adopted?

In 1997, the Pentagon announced that the F-22 (which was redesignated the F/A-22 in September 2002 to highlight the aircraft’s ground attack capability) had experienced $13.1 billion in cost overruns. In a 2001 analysis, the Defense Department identified a further $5.4 billion in cost growth. According to the GAO, in addition to the newly identified $1.3 billion increase, further overruns are likely. One factor driving further increases, according to the GAO report, are continuing delays in developmental testing of the aircraft.

A second, and more important, likely source of cost growth results from the Air Force’s failure to fund what are known as "production improvement programs" (PIPs). PIPs are initiatives where additional expenditures result in future net savings. Some examples of PIPs identified by GAO as previously implemented by the Air Force in the F/A-22 program include improvements in the manufacturing process for the aircraft’s avionics and in the fabrication and assembly processes for its airframe. The GAO also noted that the earlier such changes are made in the production process, the greater the net savings.

According to the GAO report, the Air Force has been using money allocated by Congress for investment in additional changes in future production to cover cost overruns that occurred earlier. As a result, projected future cost savings will not occur, resulting in further overruns.

When preparing its reports, GAO allows the federal agency in question to view a draft in order to identify inaccuracies and to have the opportunity to dissent or concur with any recommendations presented in the report. These responses are included in the final version. In responding to the GAO’s concerns regarding the reallocation of funds intended for PIPs, the Defense Department wrote that GAO "failed to provide credible evidence that investments in [PIPs] reduce costs," and that therefore they would not allocate the funds as directed. Yet the GAO reports show that while implemented cost offsets in certain years have not equaled planned offsets for those years, over the period FY’99-FY’02, total implemented offsets have slightly exceeded plans.3

As GAO has pointed out, continued delays in the F/A-22 program impacts the Defense Department’s efforts to modernize it aging tactical aircraft fleet. If the F/A-22 program had met its original schedule, the Air Force would have begun replacing its fleet of F-15s by 1997. Now it will not begin replacing these aircraft until late 2005, at the earliest. And it will do so at a slower rate than previously planned. As a result, the Air Force will be forced to use ageing tactical aircraft, thus driving up overall operations and maintenance costs.

In addition to driving up program costs further, continued delays in the F/A-22 program will exacerbate current problems in the Air Force’s efforts to modernize its fleet of tactical aircraft. As GAO pointed out in a February 2001 report,4 the average age of the Air Force’s tactical aircraft fleet will actually grow over the life of the modernization program.

According to the 2001 report, while the services do not have specific targets for the average age of their tactical aircraft fleets or retirement dates, historically the average age of the Air Force fleet is 11 years and the retirement age is 22 years. At the time of its release, the GAO report indicated that the average age of the current Air Force fleet is 13 years. Given the fact that only a very limited number of new replacement aircraft – if any all – have entered the fleet since the report was issued, this number is certainly now higher.

GAO found that the Air Force’s modernization plans will not improve this situation, let alone get the average age of the fighter fleets back to the historical average. In fact, age of the fleets will actually increase during the modernization program. In 2011, the half-way point of the modernization program, the average age of the Air Forces fleet will increase to 21 years. By 2025, at roughly the end of the modernization program, the Air Force fleet's average age will be 16 years, or three years above the average at the time of the report’s release. And given that the number of F/A-22s that the Air Force will purchase has been reduced from 339 to 276 since that report was released, the average age will likely be slightly higher.

Further, as a result of these rising costs, the number of aircraft that the Pentagon estimates it can purchase without violating a congressionally mandated cap on the total cost of the program set in 1997 is diminishing. The Defense Department estimated in 1997 that it could afford to purchase 438 aircraft. That number sank to 333 in 2001. And in a letter last October to Rep. John Tierney, D-Mass., a member of this subcommittee, the Pentagon reported that only 224 aircraft could be purchased with the expected funding. This assessment does not reflect the further reductions that might result from the $2 billion in recently identified cost growth, nor the impact of any further overruns.

Members of the subcommittee, unfortunately, much of what you’ve heard here today is not new news. It is, rather, just the latest chapter in what is already the long, sad tale of the F/A-22. Yet some supporters of the F/A-22 will argue that prudence dictates that, given the substantial investments already made in the program, it must continue to completion, lest these funds be wasted. I, for one, however, have never believed that future mistakes will redeem us for past mistakes. And there are viable alternatives to fully funding the F/A-22 program.

Last year I co-authored a paper that looked at various weapons programs and recommended alternatives to current Pentagon development plans. As part of that paper I recommended that the Air Force limit production of the F-22 fleet to a “silver-bullet” force of a maximum 120 aircraft. While there are substantial costs ($400 million-$600 million) involved in canceling existing contracts, immediate termination of the F-22 nonetheless would result in more savings than a partial buy. However, the money already spent on research and development, as well as the 51 aircraft currently authorized for deployment (representing roughly $35 billion in investments) would effectively be wasted, since the number of aircraft obtained would be insufficient to train pilots and provide a viable operational capability.

Instead, a “silver bullet” buy will permit the Air Force to field one air wing (with training and attrition replacement). A force of this size would allow the Air Force to learn about producing such technically complex aircraft, permit the development of suitable operational tactics, and provide a sufficient force to perform any future missions that require the F-22s stealth characteristics and other improved performance capabilities. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that limiting the F-22 program to such a force while replacing the remaining proposed F-22s with new F-15s would save $10 billion over 10 years.5

Mr. Chairman, once again, thank you for the opportunity to appear here today. I look forward your questions.
Normally I'd put this in the Heavy Armor Bridage (please, no lame questions about what it is), but I thought it was sufficiently political to post here.

Put simply- are these aircraft getting too damn expensive? Could the USAF get by with new-build F-15s (suitably upgraded, of course). The argument could be made that the preponderance of US military power makes such investments unecessary- that any nation capable of threatening the current USAF is a nation that the USAF would never bomb.

Or stuff it, just pour the money on and fund the full purchase of 750 F-22s, like they wanted in the first place! 8)

(F/A-22 ... there's some idiocy- let's tack an A to 'highlight' it's attack capability- funny- where's the F/A-16, F/A-15E, and F/A-35 then?)
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Fool, there was an A-16! It just sucked shit.

The F-22 is expensive as hell. But The F-15 design is outdated with a large signature. If we worked in developing an upgraded version it would still cost a considerable amount and we’d have poured tens of billions into ATF for no gain. I say pile on the money. The US defense budget should be 400 billion plus. Bush basically wanted that for FY 2002 but couldn’t get it so we ended up with 379 billion. The money is needed for a lot more then this program though.
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Post by Vympel »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Fool, there was an A-16! It just sucked shit.
Ah, but I said F/A-16, fool! :twisted:

In all seriousness though, it's petty name games- the F-22 can carry like a few JDAMs and nothing else. The F-16 and F-15E carry a much more diverse array of weaponry and they don't get the A designator- espeically irskome in the case of F-16 because bombing is just about all it does in the USAF.

But back on topic ...
The F-22 is expensive as hell. But The F-15 design is outdated with a large signature. If we worked in developing an upgraded version it would still cost a considerable amount and we’d have poured tens of billions into ATF for no gain. I say pile on the money. The US defense budget should be 400 billion plus. Bush basically wanted that for FY 2002 but couldn’t get it so we ended up with 379 billion. The money is needed for a lot more then this program though.
If the upgrade was kept simple and employed advances made during the F/A-22 program- I'm thinking in terms of the engines, an AESA radar (already deployed on a few Alaskan F-15Cs) and possibly the avionics (if they ever get them to work on the F-22 ...) and that's pretty much it, the cost would be far less than the unit price of the F/A-22, which is in the hundreds of millions dollar range if you count R&D.

As to piling on the money- for how many units- 750, 480, 339, or 227?

There's the very real problem of the rapid ageing of the USAF fleet- the F-22 certainly doesn't help in this regard- with only a few hundred aircraft being procured anytime soon (F-22), and the JSF service entry more than a decade away (IMO), the fleet is just going to get older and older.

I've also heard that if the program's problems aren't resolved soon, the House will kill it. Seriously.

And again- does the US need this aircraft?
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Yes I think it needs it .An upgraded F-15 will at best equal to the opposition, not better. And I doubt the USAF would get much funding or political to procure more of an aircraft that some senators recall voting for back in the 70’s.


The F/A-22 is coming reequipped with a FLIR turret and that JDAM capacity, while the F-16 and F-15E rely heavily on hard points and pods that where added on in upgrades. Still its mostly politics, but I don’t recall care. They should have called it the Lighting II and kept the AGM-142 as Raptor BTW.

As for procurement, 400-500. And now off to my next class.
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Post by Vympel »

Just to add- Bush is requesting 399 billion dollars of spending for 2004- a 4.4% increase over current levels, with a projected increase to over 500 billion dollars by 2009- this when triple digit deficits are expected next year- 200-300 billion dollars. Defense hawks in the House have already started crowing that this amount is actually *too low*, and they plan to tack on extra money- no doubt for their favorite pork.
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Sea Skimmer wrote:Yes I think it needs it .An upgraded F-15 will at best equal to the opposition, not better.
That's true- the F-15 met it's match in 1986 when the Su-27 finally started entering units in the Soviet VVS and PVO- but who can field enough modern variants of this most common threat aircraft to actually pose a threat to USAF air dominance? Russia? They have a credible nuclear deterrent and no reason to go to war with the United States. China? They'll never have the numbers to challenge the United States- at least, not in the 2000-2025 time frame. I can't really think of anyone else. The US spends so much on the military in comparison to everyone else, the chances of a threat nation actually threatening air dominance is basically zero.
And I doubt the USAF would get much funding or political to procure more of an aircraft that some senators recall voting for back in the 70’s.
:)
The F/A-22 is coming reequipped with a FLIR turret and that JDAM capacity,
FLIR turret? Got linkage? JDAM capability was on the cards before the name change, but still, it doesn't have any other weapons.
while the F-16 and F-15E rely heavily on hard points and pods that where added on in upgrades. Still its mostly politics, but I don’t recall care. They should have called it the Lighting II and kept the AGM-142 as Raptor BTW.
I think they should've called it Mustang II, personally. Unless there's already been one and I wasn't informed. Or maybe they'll call the JSF that.
As for procurement, 400-500. And now off to my next class.
Why 500 of the things? No nation would be capable of fielding 500 fighters anywhere near that level of capability.
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Post by Axis Kast »

That's true- the F-15 met it's match in 1986 when the Su-27 finally started entering units in the Soviet VVS and PVO- but who can field enough modern variants of this most common threat aircraft to actually pose a threat to USAF air dominance? Russia? They have a credible nuclear deterrent and no reason to go to war with the United States. China? They'll never have the numbers to challenge the United States- at least, not in the 2000-2025 time frame. I can't really think of anyone else. The US spends so much on the military in comparison to everyone else, the chances of a threat nation actually threatening air dominance is basically zero.
It’s really about war on multiple fronts – which in essence means being able to “hold down” both Taiwan and North Korea while still projecting serious power in the Middle East or Balkan regions.
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Vympel wrote:I think they should've called it Mustang II, personally. Unless there's already been one and I wasn't informed. Or maybe they'll call the JSF that.
Bah. Lightning II is a Lockheed name. P-51 is a North American name (and not the continent) :p
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Vympel wrote:
FLIR turret? Got linkage? JDAM capability was on the cards before the name change, but still, it doesn't have any other weapons.
No close at hand. But evidently one has been added to the production birds; taking advantage in part of a big chunk of extra space that was designed in for future computer upgrades. Computers have advanced so much in capacity since the initial design that it's unlikely to ever be needed. Simply swapping out the old ones could handle anything.

I think they should've called it Mustang II, personally. Unless there's already been one and I wasn't informed. Or maybe they'll call the JSF that.
Well if we get into personal choices I can think of many names I'd like. But Lighting II was seriously considered alongside Raptor.
Why 500 of the things? No nation would be capable of fielding 500 fighters anywhere near that level of capability.
And the US can't expect to ever have all that many Raptors in one theater. 500 would support about five tactical fighter wings. Seems like a good number. One for the Gulf, one for the western Pacific, another one or two stateside as a deployment force and one for Europe.
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Post by Rubberanvil »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
The F-22 is expensive as hell. But The F-15 design is outdated with a large signature.
Given how nearly every warplane the U.S. already got is pretty much a BVR missile and bomb truck. Throw in a land-range spotter, and the enemy will be shot down long below they can get into their firing range. Had the production lines been opened and contiunily(sp) upgraded, and modernize, the F-14, F-15, F-16, A-6, and etc. will still be roughly equal to superior to all but the newest aircraft in their respective fields. Espensive yes, but it will have produced tangible results instead of a white elephants like the F/A-22 and the Comanche scout copter.

If we worked in developing an upgraded version it would still cost a considerable amount and we’d have poured tens of billions into ATF for no gain.
Good as time any to ask Northrop/McDonnell Douglas how soon they can get a new updated YF-23 Black Widow II prototype ready for testing. :twisted:
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Rubberanvil wrote:Given how nearly every warplane the U.S. already got is pretty much a BVR missile and bomb truck. Throw in a land-range spotter, and the enemy will be shot down long below they can get into their firing range.

That line of thinking failed over Vietnam, only now the other side also has equal BVR weapons, though in fact current USAF aircraft are quite capable dogfighters. Anyway, the F-22 is superior to most everything for BVR combat, while the F-15 would be just equal to the opposition..

Good as time any to ask Northrop/McDonnell Douglas how soon they can get a new updated YF-23 Black Widow II prototype ready for testing. :twisted:
Couple years and a couple billion if it can be done at all. Then they need to do all the same development work Raptor needed. Good option. Lets wait another decade and spend another 15 billion to get a plane that was rejcted the first time around to meet requirments that will have been established several decades before by the time it could reach IOC.
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Post by Rubberanvil »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Couple years and a couple billion if it can be done at all. Then they need to do all the same development work Raptor needed. Good option. Lets wait another decade and spend another 15 billion to get a plane that was rejcted the first time around to meet requirments that will have been established several decades before by the time it could reach IOC.
It's going to be couple of years and several billions more just for the Raptor enter services. At least with Northrop/McDonnell Douglas which lost out of both the ATF and JSF programs, have great incentive to to get their ass into gear ASAP and keep the budget costs down. Plus I said ask not to give the contract to them.
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Rubberanvil wrote:It's going to be couple of years and several billions more just for the Raptor enter services.
Yeah, so that sounds like a better use of money then to just get a prototype that was closer to a technology demonstrator flying again, if it is even possibul.
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Post by Rubberanvil »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Rubberanvil wrote:
Yeah, so that sounds like a better use of money then to just get a prototype that was closer to a technology demonstrator flying again, if it is even possibul.
Better use or not, the Raptor is on thin ice with the GAO and the Military Oversight Commitee, and that close to being canned completely.

With the YF-23s as you said if they can get one of them to fly again, may cheaper to the development costs of the proposed current project which is to replace the F-117.
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Rubberanvil wrote:
With the YF-23s as you said if they can get one of them to fly again, may cheaper to the development costs of the proposed current project which is to replace the F-117.

There is no project with a direct goal to replace the F-117. You might mean the FB-22 but that aircrafts job certainly cannot be done with the F-23. And I fail to see why we'd replace a dedicated strike aircraft with an old fighter prototype designed purely for air to air anyway. The FB-22 requires radical changes to the aircraft.

So we'd end up stuck with all the development costs of F-22, plus those of the F-23 and then needing to spend even more money for an FB-23.
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Post by Rubberanvil »

Sea Skimmer wrote:There is no project with a direct goal to replace the F-117.
I thought I'm read there was a project to either replace F-117 or develop a new stealth strike bomber not the FB-22. :oops:
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Rubberanvil wrote:I thought I'm read there was a project to either replace F-117 or develop a new stealth strike bomber not the FB-22. :oops:
Not that I've ever heard of. It was a one off single role aircraft, and its capabilities are well replaced by those of the F-22 and F-35. Come 2018 it will be gone. By then the decision on the FB-22 will have been made, but its traces its roots back to the fall of the F-111.
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I have to wonder if costs could be kept down by making these programs multi-branch. Theoreticaly the JSF was able to do as good as it did thanks to it being a replacement for the strike fighters in many of the branches of the military. Had the F/A-22 been designed for both the Airforce and Navy, might things be a little better? You would have a fast fighter for fleet defense, the capability to get air superiority off a carrier, etc...
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Alyeska wrote:I have to wonder if costs could be kept down by making these programs multi-branch. Theoreticaly the JSF was able to do as good as it did thanks to it being a replacement for the strike fighters in many of the branches of the military. Had the F/A-22 been designed for both the Airforce and Navy, might things be a little better? You would have a fast fighter for fleet defense, the capability to get air superiority off a carrier, etc...
Okay. Lets take every existing F-22 problem, and combine it with a significantly heavier aircraft, which must resist heavy salt corrosion. I'm sorry, but your quite insane if you think that would have made things easier. One of the biggest holdups in the ATF program has been the skin. If the F-22 had been a joint project, I'm sure the even greater level of complexity and thus cost and time would have got it killed some time in Clintons second term.
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Sea Skimmer wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I have to wonder if costs could be kept down by making these programs multi-branch. Theoreticaly the JSF was able to do as good as it did thanks to it being a replacement for the strike fighters in many of the branches of the military. Had the F/A-22 been designed for both the Airforce and Navy, might things be a little better? You would have a fast fighter for fleet defense, the capability to get air superiority off a carrier, etc...
Okay. Lets take every existing F-22 problem, and combine it with a significantly heavier aircraft, which must resist heavy salt corrosion. I'm sorry, but your quite insane if you think that would have made things easier. One of the biggest holdups in the ATF program has been the skin. If the F-22 had been a joint project, I'm sure the even greater level of complexity and thus cost and time would have got it killed some time in Clintons second term.
The reason why I say it might be cheaper is because then the Navy would also be taking part in the total funding. If the aditional funding from the Navy can overcome the added costs for their requirements, it just might work. Of course that would have had to be done from the begining, at this stage its way to late and its just going to be an AF bird.
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Alyeska wrote: The reason why I say it might be cheaper is because then the Navy would also be taking part in the total funding. If the aditional funding from the Navy can overcome the added costs for their requirements, it just might work. Of course that would have had to be done from the begining, at this stage its way to late and its just going to be an AF bird.
Where's the navy going to get the money? Though I'm glad this didn't happen, since it would very likely mean the navy wouldn't have had the Super Tomcat 21 or F-14D programs and would end up having its procurement budget thrown all to hell. I'm not a big Super Hornet fan but it would be hard to pay for that as well, and the F-22 numbers sure wouldn't make up for its loss.
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Alyeska wrote:
The reason why I say it might be cheaper is because then the Navy would also be taking part in the total funding. If the aditional funding from the Navy can overcome the added costs for their requirements, it just might work. Of course that would have had to be done from the begining, at this stage its way to late and its just going to be an AF bird.
You know, I wonder if the carrier-based JSF will even work. The demands of carrier aircraft already had a hand in killing the Dorito I mean the A-12 Avenger II.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Ahh, So even America is now learning that there is only so much money. You have to cut your cloth to your budget.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

Jean Omer Marie Gabriel Monnet
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Oberleutnant
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Post by Oberleutnant »

Vympel wrote:You know, I wonder if the carrier-based JSF will even work. The demands of carrier aircraft already had a hand in killing the Dorito I mean the A-12 Avenger II.
If carrier-based JSF won't work then it's bad news for Britain and Italy who both want to equip their new carriers with JSFs.
"Thousands of years ago cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this."
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Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Vympel wrote: You know, I wonder if the carrier-based JSF will even work. The demands of carrier aircraft already had a hand in killing the Dorito I mean the A-12 Avenger II.
I expect the USN variant will work. It’s the USMC version that I'm worried about.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
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