camp xray

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-01 09:54pm

humane, legal, good idea?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-06-01 10:31pm

Whatever is going on in Camp Xray, I find it very difficult to get fired up for protecting the civil rights of Achmed P. Terrorist.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-06-02 05:10pm

I say put em all in a room with a bunch of starving lions a la Daniel, and see if Allah'll really protect any of em

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-06-02 05:46pm

no Durran if you are a true american it really isnt hard to fight for the civil rights of all people. The basic primary ideals that this nation was founded on were civil liberties and rights, that there are universal rights of all men, specifically those who are as far as the law is concerned, innocent. Yes that's right I said innocent, suspected terrorists are by definition not military opperatives but civilian criminals who are subject to a fair and impartial trial by a jury of their peers same as any other criminal caught with a gun in his hand after a murder. What make's them the LEAST bit different from Timothy McVeigh other than the color of their skin and their nation of origin? The ammendments are very clear on this matter, all people have the right to due process of law, especially the right to a quick and speedy trial.

Furthermore even if you claimed they were military operatives, then you must treat them as POWs, which means that Camp Xray is not only a violation of human rights, the us constitution, but now becomes a violation of international law and all treaties ever established about the fair treatment of POWs

Uther · Post by **Uther** » 2003-06-02 05:51pm

It may be wrong in principle, but I find it difficult to care about the fates of a few hundred suspected terrorists.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-06-02 06:10pm

Listen, Nappy, while I'm sure there are Very Serious Civil Rights Issues (tm) with camp Xray that probably aren't legally correct, that doesn't mean I have to care about the people whose rights are being violated. I have no shame reveling in the pain and suffering of genuinely bad people, even if I disapprove of what is causing that pain and suffering.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-06-02 06:12pm

In which case durry, you cannot call yourself a real american or a patriot. American patriots believe in the ideals of the United States and edevour to defend them, regardless of who's rights are being violated.

This is the same thing with free speech, you are basically saying "Civil rights apply only if you agree with me". Fine, then you are no better than any other tyrannt or facist

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-06-02 06:19pm

Read what I wrote, did I ever imply that I approved of what is going on in Camp Xray? I just said that I couldn't possibly care less about whatever pain and suffering the terrorist, fundie pieces of shit currently housed there are currently enduring and I'm certainly not going to waste my time on a bunch of goddamn terrorists when there are civil rights issues to worry about at home.

The Albino Raven · Post by **The Albino Raven** » 2003-06-02 07:04pm

would you care if they were your friends, or people you knew, who were being detained. It's all too easy to turn a blind eye to the suffering of a people you don't know. These prisoners, whether you deem them evil or not, are still human beings, and by ignoring their plight, you lower them to a sub-human level, making you no better than a fascist leader.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-02 07:08pm

How many times must we do this thread? Hell the last one was probably less then a month ago.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-06-02 07:13pm

Fremen_Muhadib wrote:would you care if they were your friends, or people you knew, who were being detained. It's all too easy to turn a blind eye to the suffering of a people you don't know. These prisoners, whether you deem them evil or not, are still human beings, and by ignoring their plight, you lower them to a sub-human level, making you no better than a fascist leader.

Of course I would care if my friends were being detained, but I don't know any asshole piece of shit terrorists. And I have lowered them to no subhuman level; they did that by themselves in my eyes when they joined al-Qaeda.

Again, I reiterate that I do not really approve of what's going on at Xray, because it's probably wrong legally. I just don't care about the pain and suffering of terrorists.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-06-02 07:23pm

There are hundreds of thousands of Americans in prison for non-violent drug offenses, thousands of people who've lost everything they've owned thanks to unconstitutional asset forefiture laws, the DMCA retricts free speech to protect the profits of record companies, fundies want to prevent public schools from teaching evolution, Patriot II would allow the justice department to strip a person's citizenship...I'm sorry, folks, I'm with Durran. I've got too much other shit to be concerned about happening to people who, frankly, aren't dirtbags who'd kill me and make every woman I know dress in a blue burlap sack. I'm not going to cry myself to sleep at night over some Taliban sack of shit in Cuba just because some sanctimonious wanker insists I'm not a real American if I don't.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-02 08:11pm

I would approve of the prisoners being in the US in a bog-standard prison, after being tried and convicted of terrorism-related charges. Holding people without charging them with a crime is rather less okay.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-06-02 08:36pm

Moved to politics.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-06-02 08:42pm

Humane,definitely. Legal, fuzzy but I'd say legal. Good idea, abso-fucking-lutely.

These guys don't have to be convicted. They're enemy combatants and until their comrades actually surrender then we have perfect grounds to hold them. Hell, I'd hold them until we can be sure they won't go out and try to kill all over again.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-06-02 10:43pm

I'll just weigh in right now.

Camp X-Ray is inhumane and illegal for anyone but al-Qaeda (whom we can hold on technical grounds as autonomous foreign combatants). And just to clarify, you are stripped of most rights as a prisoner in the United States regardless of your crime once you enter a federal prison.

Do I think Camp X-Ray is a "good idea?" On all levels. I couldn't give a shit about what kind of rights we violate in that place as long as it doesn't do me any ill.

Spirow Agnew said it best: "If given the choice, the American public would ever choose the policeman's truncheon over the anarchist's bomb."

Towlie · Post by **Towlie** » 2003-06-03 08:12am

Thie following article isn't about camp X-ray but it weighs in on all the civil rights arguments. A lot of you are saying "I don't give a shit about John Q. Terrorist," which is both misleading and sickening because putting aside the fact whether they are POWs or not, it assumes 100% of people being detained are terrorists. Now here's some snippets of what I read in the newspaper this morning:

"U.S. ADMITS FOREIGN 'DETAINEES' INNOCENT"

Foreigners rounded up in the aftermatch of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks spent months in jail without knowing why, were abused physically and verbally and denied access to their lawyers.
According to a U.S. internal government report, a study of 672 so-called "detainees" who were of special interest to the FBI found they were subjected to physical and verbal abuse, were housed in cells lit by two bright light bulbs 24 hours per day, were denied legal counsel and would not be released under government orders until they were cleared of any terrorist connection."

"The study found a number of prisoners were "slammed" against the wall, away from the prying eyes of surveillance cameras, one had his fingers bent back until it touched his wrist, another was dragged along the prison floor by his handcuffs and many reported cuffs were on so tight they have scars remaining to this day.
They were also told by guards that they were going to die in the facility, would be held for 20-25 years and taunted as 'bin Laden junior.'
Also in Fine's reports was anecdotal examples of the pretexts that led to the arrests. In one case, a man who paid for a purchase shortly before Sept. 11 with an aviation-related credit card and, in idle conversation, said he'd like to learn to fly an airplane, was arrested after the attacks based on a tip with the other person in the conversation.
Another was arrests and detained based on a "tip" from a citizen who reported a grocery store run by "Middle Eastern men" had closed the day after the attacks, even though it was usually open 24/7."

All for freedom and democracy, no doubt. So do you care about the civil rights of these people? Or do only non-muslims get civil rights?

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-06-03 08:30am

It's like a lot of people have said- all this bullshit about extra security, paranoia, the 'Homeland Security Department', arrests without charge, without trial, and without representation, the "Patriot" Act, it's all bullshit designed to give people the illusion that they're safe. Who the fuck are they kidding, abrogating the rights of citizens is going to make anyone safer? The only reason another John Q Terrorist hasn't blown up another few hundred people in a senseless bombing is because they're not thinking hard enough- it has nothing to do with reading what books you take out at the library. This is exactly what terrorists wanted out of their attacks- they want to sow terror. And what could be a more ridiculous system than the 'terror alert' scheme? Can anyone tell the story about the little boy who cried wolf?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-06-03 08:35am

Towlie wrote:"U.S. ADMITS FOREIGN 'DETAINEES' INNOCENT"

Where did you get this article from?

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2003-06-03 09:03am

"Welcome to the US, where all people are suspects, and were the freedom is defended with demolishion of it."

No thanks. Thank god that I don't live in the US.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-03 09:42am

Vympel wrote:This is exactly what terrorists wanted out of their attacks- they want to sow terror. And what could be a more ridiculous system than the 'terror alert' scheme? Can anyone tell the story about the little boy who cried wolf?

Yeah, lots of terrified people in America today. I’ll let you know when I meet one. Even the illusion of security is sufficient. Witness the Patriots in Israel. In hindsight they would have been lucky to kill one warhead, but they demonstrated to the Israeli people that they where being defended and could stay out of the conflict.

Towlie · Post by **Towlie** » 2003-06-03 10:50am

phongn wrote:
Towlie wrote:"U.S. ADMITS FOREIGN 'DETAINEES' INNOCENT"
Where did you get this article from?

Torstar [Toronto Star] news service. Typically goes out to corporate newspapers in the Golden Horseshoe area.

Towlie · Post by **Towlie** » 2003-06-03 10:53am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Yeah, lots of terrified people in America today. I’ll let you know when I meet one. Even the illusion of security is sufficient. Witness the Patriots in Israel. In hindsight they would have been lucky to kill one warhead, but they demonstrated to the Israeli people that they where being defended and could stay out of the conflict.

Patriot missiles that allow people to stay out of a conflict = throwing innocent people in prison? Poor comparison. The Japanese internment camps in WWII also helped create the illusion of security. Would you have supported them back then? Honestly, ask yourself that question.

Towlie · Post by **Towlie** » 2003-06-03 10:58am

Go to www.thestar.com and click on the "U.S. 'mistreated' immigrants in 9/11 roundup" headline.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-06-03 11:11am

Camp Xray, hmmm, its a fuzzy grey area type thing. I see it more of the POW's there do not have the right to lawyers. They are being held until after the war is over, and from everything I have read (even the Amesty International report) are being treated accordingly. There might be instances like Towlie's article eludes to, but they are alive, feed, and given medical care. They are not there awaiting trial, they are there awaiting the end of the war. When the war is over, those who are deemed to be war criminals will probably go to trial (military).

This is not a criminal court issue, it is a war issue and a POW (really a unlawful combantent) issue.

That being said, it does have its problems too. I know (or suppose) that alot of those fuckers are actualy somewhat innocent, and the goverment should know that by now. Some of those people should have been released and released quite publicly. As for civil rights abuse, bring on the evidence and not political agenda. If it does happen, I advocate the prosecution of the perpratrator to the fullest extent of the law.