Shuttle Atlantis suffered similar accident as Columbia

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Shuttle Atlantis suffered similar accident as Columbia

Post by kojikun »

from space.com. I can NOT believe we knew about this and did NOTHING.:evil: :evil: :evil:
Hot Gases Breached Shuttle Atlantis' Wing in 2000
By Ted Bridis
Associated Press Writer
posted: 03:30 pm ET
08 July 2003

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Superheated gases breached the left wing of shuttle Atlantis during a recent fiery return to Earth in hauntingly similar fashion to the demise of Columbia nearly three years later, according to internal NASA documents.

Unlike Columbia, Atlantis suffered no irreparable damage during the May 2000 episode and, after repairs, returned to flight just four months later. NASA ordered fleetwide changes in how employees install protective wing panels and sealant materials.

The small leak through a seam in Atlantis' wing during its return from the International Space Station was disclosed in documents sought by The Associated Press under the Freedom of Information Act. The mission commander was James Halsell, a shuttle veteran who is coordinating NASA's effort to return the shuttles to flight.

One of the seven Atlantis astronauts, Mary Ellen Weber, said NASA never told her about the breach, which was not discovered until the shuttle had landed.

"There are thousands and thousands of things that can go wrong, and the crew is very much aware this can happen," Weber said. "Certainly, when you learn about this, if it had progressed, it could have been much more dire."

Weber operated the robotic arm aboard Atlantis and flew aboard Discovery in July 1995. She said NASA may have reported the wing damage to other crew members. Attempts by AP to reach the other astronauts by telephone through family members and NASA offices in Houston and Washington were unsuccessful; one Atlantis crewman was a Russian cosmonaut and another has left NASA to return to the Air Force.

NASA spokesman James Hartsfield said crews and engineers generally participate in two months of meetings to discuss their experiences and spacecraft conditions. He could not say whether the shuttle's commander or pilot was told about the wing breach, which NASA blamed on incorrectly installed sealant material.

Some experts expressed surprise that superheated gases ever had leaked inside a shuttle's wing. Although protective wing panels have been found damaged, even cracked, the Columbia disaster was widely believed outside NASA to have been the first such breach.

"Very little information about the flaws of the tile system ever make it into the open literature, so those of us who work on this ... seldom hear much about serious problems such as this one," said Steven P. Schneider, an associate professor at Purdue University's Aerospace Sciences Lab. "I've never heard this sort of leak occurred."

NASA said it later determined Atlantis' exterior wing panels were not damaged by the overheating despite being discolored from the high temperatures. Aluminum structures inside the wing "looked outstanding," NASA said. Other parts immediately behind the wing panels were covered with a glassy material, apparently from melted insulating tile and other sealant material.

Hartsfield said all damaged parts were replaced.

The space agency formally reported the damage to its Program Requirements Control Board, an internal safety oversight body, which ordered fleetwide improvements in the installation of sealant materials before Atlantis was allowed to launch for its mission in September 2000. Atlantis is expected to be the next shuttle into space when NASA is cleared to resume flights.

Weber, now an associate vice president at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, described Atlantis' return to Earth as mostly routine and remembered seeing an orange glow from hot gases dancing outside the shuttle windows.

Although damage inside Atlantis' left wing was detected post-flight, NASA worried about the shuttle's return even before the discovery.

During liftoff, a 6-inch chunk of ice had smashed against the back edge of the right wing; so experts deemed it prudent to adjust Atlantis' flight to rapidly cool its wings prior to the fiery trip through the atmosphere, NASA documents showed.

It was impossible to know whether this cooling technique, called a thermal conditioning maneuver, also helped minimize heat damage inside Atlantis' defective left wing. NASA later determined damage on the right wing was relatively minor.

The board investigating Columbia's Feb. 1 breakup determined that superheated gases penetrated protective wing panels that had been loosened by insulating foam that broke off its external fuel tank on liftoff and smashed against the shuttle. Investigators believe searing re-entry temperatures melted key structures inside until Columbia tumbled out of control and broke apart at close to 13,000 miles per hour, killing its seven astronauts.

NASA did not consider ordering the thermal conditioning maneuver on Columbia because it believed such a move would have interfered with efforts to warm Columbia's landing gear tires for a safe landing.

NASA blamed the Atlantis damage on improper installation of a seal between two protective panels on the shuttle's left wing, "called a butterfly gap filler," at the Boeing Co. plant in Palmdale, Calif., during an overhaul of Atlantis in late 1997. The mistake went unnoticed during subsequent inspections because the part could not be seen without removing protective panels, NASA said.

Engineers found the damage on Atlantis while investigating the mystery of a partially melted insulating tile. Removing two protective wing panels nearby and peering inside the wing structure, they determined the dislodged seal had created "a substantial flow path," according to NASA's internal reports. The gap measured just over one-quarter inch, about the width of a paperclip or a No. 2 pencil.

The protective panels, insulators and other hardware inside the left wing "shows various signs of overheating," NASA reported. Photographs showed charred and scorched components, including parts made from titanium and inconel, two of the most heat-resistant materials on the shuttle. Titanium melts about 3,000 degrees; inconel melts about 2,550 degrees.

Investigators examining Columbia's breakup remain uncertain over the size of the gap that permitted hot gases to penetrate that shuttle's wing. But they believe it was as small as a one-inch slit running vertically up the wing for nearly 30 inches. In a test Monday, a chunk of foam blew open a dramatic 16-inch hole in parts of a mock-up of a shuttle wing.

Temperatures during a shuttle's return can climb to almost 3,000 degrees -- nearly one-third as hot as the surface of the sun -- along parts of the spacecraft, especially the leading edges of its wings. Damage there is considerably more likely to doom a shuttle than anywhere else. NASA requires immediate repairs when damage to the wing's protective panels exceeds four-hundredths of an inch, about the thickness of a dime.
:evil: :evil: :evil:
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Post by Montcalm »

They allready knew and they did`nt fix it,who the fuck is running things at NASA,i guess Challenger did`nt teach them in 1986.

All these astronauts dead cause some SOB`s think they know everything. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Post by Stormbringer »

An interesting article but so what?

It sounds like Atlantis's damage was not caused in the same manner as Columbia's. It sounds like the sealant was just faulty and that it was since taken care of. It wasn't a foam strike but a defective sealant. And it was taken care of. They did their job on this one.

The fact they might or might not have told them is some what troubling, the nature of the accidents are different. Otherwise it seems like the kind of revisionist finger pointing that's characterized the whole thing.
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Post by kojikun »

The fact that they knew their weing structures were vulnerable should have been cause for grounding of all shuttles. The hole in Columbia's wing wasn't the problem, it was the ease with which the rest was burned through. Had they grounded the shuttles and made the wings more resistant, Columbia would still be flying.
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Post by Stormbringer »

kojikun wrote:The fact that they knew their weing structures were vulnerable should have been cause for grounding of all shuttles. The hole in Columbia's wing wasn't the problem, it was the ease with which the rest was burned through. Had they grounded the shuttles and made the wings more resistant, Columbia would still be flying.
Why? They fixed the problem. What the fuck is the point in grounding them for a problem they fixed? At most they should have changed the tile design.

Actually, the hole was the problem. The thing burned through because they had a stream of superheated gas going through it. It was adequate to the job had it not lost/damaged a tile. The problem is the same as with the Apollos, Mercuys and Geminis; the heat sheild had to hold because we couldn't possibly design something to stand the heat.

This isn't science fiction. The heat sheild had to hold so stop being an idiot and saying they should have done "something". The heat sheild's the first and last line of defense. It has to hold, period.

And to give you an idea, that superheated air was at least several thousand degrees hotter than the plasma torches we use to cut steel at work and those thing will slice even stainless steel up easily.
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Post by Solauren »

It makes me wonder how long until they haul Enterprise, the prototype out and fit it for full space flights

I think it's time to update the shuttles with new materials and technology.
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Post by Crayz9000 »

Solauren wrote:It makes me wonder how long until they haul Enterprise, the prototype out and fit it for full space flights

I think it's time to update the shuttles with new materials and technology.
Too much money and effort. The things are just too damned old: people often try to compare them with commercial jets of similar age, but they take a LOT more stresses over their operating life than a Boeing 747.

What we need is a new shuttle that WORKS for crying out loud. Not a harebrained SSTO project that probably won't even get off the ground...
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Re: Shuttle Atlantis suffered similar accident as Columbia

Post by Sea Skimmer »

kojikun wrote:from space.com. I can NOT believe we knew about this and did NOTHING.:evil: :evil: :evil:

Bullshit detected, the problem WAS fixed.
the article you fucking posted wrote:NASA ordered fleetwide changes in how employees install protective wing panels and sealant materials
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Crayz9000 wrote:
What we need is a new shuttle that WORKS for crying out loud. Not a harebrained SSTO project that probably won't even get off the ground...
No we don’t need a new shuttle. We need a small expendable crew pod. The entire shuttle concept is a huge waste of money.
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Post by weemadando »

Watch the X-Files episode "Space". I re-watched it recently and it was, well, interesting...
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Post by Crayz9000 »

Well, if we're going to switch to crew pods, then we'd better start making robotic booster pods for the ISS, because those Progress modules won't be able to keep its orbit stable forever.
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Post by Howedar »

kojikun wrote:The fact that they knew their weing structures were vulnerable should have been cause for grounding of all shuttles. The hole in Columbia's wing wasn't the problem, it was the ease with which the rest was burned through. Had they grounded the shuttles and made the wings more resistant, Columbia would still be flying.
That is simply not possible. You would have to add so much weight that the shuttle would not be flyable.



I don't see a problem, the cause of the incident appears to be totally different.
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Post by Darth Gojira »

Too bad NASA's budget's been cut. Who cares about Earth oil when there are plenty more resouces in the Solar system?
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Post by Montcalm »

Darth Gojira wrote:Who cares about Earth oil when there are plenty more resouces in the Solar system?
You forgot the oil tycoon prez Shrubby.
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Post by MKSheppard »

The solution to the foam problem is so damn mindnumbingly simple: just
clad the exterior hull with thin titanitium strips, enough to protect
the weaker carbon-carbon material from foam strikes
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

I'm not suprised. The Space Shuttles have always had problems. That's what alot of people don't realize. The Space Shuttle was originally a proof of concept. It was meant to show that we could build a space craft that could be used over and over again and that we wouldn't have to build a new ship every time. But what it wasn't meant to do was to last twenty some years as the NASA mainstay. It was supposed to be replaced with something that would become the NASA mainstay, but it never did. The Space Shuttles were and are majestic ships, in fact one of the posters on my wall is of Atlantis and Columbia passing each other at the Space Center on their giant trucks that move them, but it's about time that they were gracefully retired and not have us lose them by them falling apart.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Darth Gojira wrote:Too bad NASA's budget's been cut. Who cares about Earth oil when there are plenty more resouces in the Solar system?
I'd be really suprised if there were any other fossil fuels in the solar system other than the ones on Earth.
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Post by kojikun »

MKSheppard wrote:The solution to the foam problem is so damn mindnumbingly simple: just
clad the exterior hull with thin titanitium strips, enough to protect
the weaker carbon-carbon material from foam strikes
It would work, too. The extra weight would be so negligable as to make it
unnoticable, and the strips would burn up without a problem on reentry. It
might actually make reentry safer simply because theres extra junk. shame
NASA doesn't like to do things that make sense.
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Post by Beowulf »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Darth Gojira wrote:Too bad NASA's budget's been cut. Who cares about Earth oil when there are plenty more resouces in the Solar system?
I'd be really suprised if there were any other fossil fuels in the solar system other than the ones on Earth.
Technically not fossile fuels, but Titan has seas of hydrocarbons...
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Post by Stormbringer »

kojikun wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:The solution to the foam problem is so damn mindnumbingly simple: just
clad the exterior hull with thin titanitium strips, enough to protect
the weaker carbon-carbon material from foam strikes
It would work, too. The extra weight would be so negligable as to make it
unnoticable, and the strips would burn up without a problem on reentry. It
might actually make reentry safer simply because theres extra junk. shame
NASA doesn't like to do things that make sense.
I've got a better solution:

Not launch damaged shuttles!!!! :shock:


This doesn't require pie in the sky solutions. Just closer, more careful safety oversight. It's not a design flaw in the shuttle so much as damage being ignored.
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Post by kojikun »

Stormbringer wrote:I've got a better solution:

Not launch damaged shuttles!!!! :shock:


This doesn't require pie in the sky solutions. Just closer, more careful safety oversight. It's not a design flaw in the shuttle so much as damage being ignored.
You'd think they'd have thought of that but noooo.
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Post by phongn »

Montcalm wrote:
Darth Gojira wrote:Who cares about Earth oil when there are plenty more resouces in the Solar system?
You forgot the oil tycoon prez Shrubby.
:roll:
How much would it cost to get resources around?
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Post by aerius »

kojikun wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:The solution to the foam problem is so damn mindnumbingly simple: just
clad the exterior hull with thin titanitium strips, enough to protect
the weaker carbon-carbon material from foam strikes
It would work, too. The extra weight would be so negligable as to make it
unnoticable, and the strips would burn up without a problem on reentry. It
might actually make reentry safer simply because theres extra junk.
Actually, no. Titanium is not exactly lightweight, in fact it has a bit over half the density of steel. Those Ti strips are gonna be awful heavy if you want to protect any decent amount of area. Each leading wing edge is about 70' long give or take a few feet, to protect that edge you'll need a strip of Ti about a foot wide and 1/8" thick. That's 9 cubic feet of Ti per wing, which works out to about 2450 pounds per wing, or over 4900 pounds just to protect the leading edge of the wings on the shuttle. Consider that the dry weight of the shuttle is about 173,000 pounds, congrats, you've made the shuttle 3% heavier. It'll still lift off but it sure as hell ain't gonna carry much with it.

And then you're gonna have problems on re-entry. Those nearly 5,000 pounds of titanium ain't gonna co-operate and burn off cleanly. You're gonna have pieces of Ti melting through and flying off the wings at hypersonic speeds, and that ain't gonna do any good for the shuttle. Not to mention the Ti being a good conductor of heat and transfering all that heat directly to the shuttle. Can you say "tile burn-through"?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Stormbringer wrote: I've got a better solution:
Not launch damaged shuttles!!!! :shock:
Um, once the SRBs are fired, you can't turn them off
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

MKSheppard wrote:
Um, once the SRBs are fired, you can't turn them off
Actually its possibul to jettison them and the main fuel tank very early in a launch, the shuttle then glides back to base. But the time window is less then one minute IIRC, after liftoff.
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