Michael Moore's letter to General Clark

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Michael Moore's letter to General Clark

Post by Tsyroc »

I got this off of Salon.com but it was originally published on Draft Wesley Clark.com
Michael Moore wrote: Sept. 17, 2003 | A Citizen's Appeal to a General in a Time of War (at Home)

September 12, 2003

Dear General Wesley Clark,

I've been meaning to write to you for some time. Two days after the Oscars, when I felt very alone and somewhat frightened by the level of hatred toward me for daring to suggest that we were being led into war for "fictitious reasons," one person stuck his neck out and came to my defense on national television.

And that person was you.

Aaron Brown had just finished interviewing me by satellite on CNN, and I had made a crack about me being "the only non-general allowed on CNN all week." He ended the interview and then turned to you, as you were sitting at the desk with him. He asked you what you thought of this crazy guy, Michael Moore. And, although we were still in Week 1 of the war, you boldly said that my dissent was necessary and welcome, and you pointed out that I was against Bush and his "policies," not the kids in the service. I sat in Flint, Mich., with the earpiece still in my ear and I was floored -- a GENERAL standing up for me and, in effect, for all the millions who were opposed to the war but had been bullied into silence.

Since that night, I have spent a lot of time checking you out. And what I've learned about you corresponds to my experience with you back in March. You seem to be a man of integrity. You seem not afraid to speak the truth. I liked your answer when you were asked your position on gun control: "If you are the type of person who likes assault weapons, there is a place for you -- the United States Army. We have them."

In addition to being first in your class at West Point, a four-star general from Arkansas, and the former supreme commander of NATO -- enough right there that should give pause to any peace-loving person -- I have discovered that ...

1. You oppose the PATRIOT Act and would fight the expansion of its powers.

2. You are firmly pro-choice.

3. You filed an amicus brief with the Supreme Court in support of the University of Michigan's affirmative action case.

4. You would get rid of the Bush tax "cut" and make the rich pay their fair share.

5. You respect the views of our allies and want to work with them and with the rest of the international community.

6. And you oppose war. You have said that war should always be the "last resort" and that it is military men such as yourself who are the most for peace because it is YOU and your soldiers who have to do the dying. You find something unsettling about a commander in chief who dons a flight suit and pretends to be Top Gun, a stunt that dishonored those who have died in that flight suit in the service of their country.
]
General Clark, last night I finally got to meet you in person. I would like to share with others what I said to you privately: You may be the person who can defeat George W. Bush in next year's election.

This is not an endorsement. For me, it's too early for that. I have liked Howard Dean (in spite of his flawed positions in support of some capital punishment, his grade "A" rating from the NRA, and his opposition to cutting the Pentagon budget). And Dennis Kucinich is so committed to all the right stuff. We need candidates in this race who will say the things that need to be said, to push the pathetically lame Democratic Party into having a backbone -- or get out of the way and let us have a REAL second party on the ballot.

But right now, for the sake and survival of our very country, we need someone who is going to get the job done, period. And that job, no matter whom I speak to across America -- be they leftie Green or conservative Democrat, and even many disgusted Republicans -- EVERYONE is of one mind as to what that job is:

Bush must go.

This is war, General, and it's Bush & Co.'s war on us. It's their war on the middle class, the poor, the environment, their war on women and their war against anyone around the world who doesn't accept total American domination. Yes, it's a war -- and we, the people, need a general to beat back those who have abused our Constitution and our basic sense of decency.

The General vs. the Texas Air National Guard deserter! I want to see that debate, and I know who the winner is going to be.

The other night, when you were on Bill Maher's show, he began by reading to you a quote from Howard Dean where he (Dean) tried to run away from the word "liberal." Maher said to you, so, General, do you want to run away from that word? Without missing a beat, you said "No!" and you reminded everyone that America was founded as a "liberal democracy." The audience went wild with applause.

That is what we have needed for a long time on our side -- guts. I am sure there are things you and I don't see eye to eye on, but now is the time for all good people from the far left to the middle of the road to bury the damn hatchet and get together behind someone who is not only good on the issues but can beat George W. Bush. And where I come from in the Midwest, General, I know you are the kind of candidate that the average American will vote for.

Michael Moore likes a general? I never thought I'd write these words. But desperate times call for desperate measures. I want to know more about you. I want your voice heard. I would like to see you in these debates. Then let the chips fall where they may -- and we'll all have a better idea of what to do. If you sit it out, then I think we all know what we are left with.

I am asking everyone I know to send an e-mail to you now to encourage you to run, even if they aren't sure they would vote for you. (Wesley Clark's e-mail address is: info@leadershipforamerica.org.) None of us truly know how we will vote five months from now or a year from now. But we do know that this race needs a jolt -- and Bush needs to know that there is one person he won't be able to Dukakisize.

Take the plunge, General Clark. At the very least, the nation needs to hear what you know about what was really behind this invasion of Iraq and your fresh ideas of how we can live in a more peaceful world. Yes, your country needs you to perform one more act of brave service -- to help defeat an enemy from within, at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, an address that used to belong to "we, the people."

Yours,

Michael Moore
Lottery # 275, U.S. military draft, 1972
Conscientious Objector applicant

I don't always like Michael Moore but his letter to General Clark was interesting to me because of what it seems the General might stand for. He comes across as a common sense no nonsense type of guy and the type of "liberal" that the US hasn't seen in a long time, one with balls and integrity.

I can't say that I totally argee with him on all of the few things that Moore mentions about him but this makes me want to read more about General Clark.
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Post by Glocksman »

How long do you think it'll be before Moore claims the credit for Clark deciding to run? :P
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Post by BoredShirtless »

The best time to measure a mans character is when he's under pressure. This thread sort of shows that Clark is a fucking moron.
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Post by Tsyroc »

BoredShirtless wrote:The best time to measure a mans character is when he's under pressure. This thread sort of shows that Clark is a fucking moron.
I don't think that article shows enough to be certain. At one point Clark was told that he needed to get that airfield and had the authority to do so. After he found out that it was already occupied he came up with another plan to take the airfield which to me is what he should have done as part of his job.

It is disturbing that it looks like he wanted to go ahead with the plan and had to be over-ridden to keep from doing so. Still the article doesn't go in depth about that either.

I'd want to see the actual documentary before I'd draw the conclusion that Clark's a moron. Considering how Russia has traditionally acted about that area it can't be rulled out that they weren't doing something stupid either. This article certainly suggest that something was going on from Russia's end.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Tsyroc wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:The best time to measure a mans character is when he's under pressure. This thread sort of shows that Clark is a fucking moron.
I don't think that article shows enough to be certain.
What do you mean? It shows that he ordered the British to line their tanks across a Russian runway! And when questioned, he said it was ''an appropriate course of action''! Are you seriously saying that that plan [and the flimsy justification] can come from anyone but a moron?
Tsyroc wrote: At one point Clark was told that he needed to get that airfield and had the authority to do so. After he found out that it was already occupied he came up with another plan to take the airfield which to me is what he should have done as part of his job.
Red herring. A paragraph on Clark's job description is irrelevent.
Tsyroc wrote: It is disturbing that it looks like he wanted to go ahead with the plan and had to be over-ridden to keep from doing so. Still the article doesn't go in depth about that either.
You can't get much deeper then the facts.
Tsyroc wrote: I'd want to see the actual documentary before I'd draw the conclusion that Clark's a moron. Considering how Russia has traditionally acted about that area it can't be rulled out that they weren't doing something stupid either. This article certainly suggest that something was going on from Russia's end.
The Russians getting confused on whether they were meant to take the airport means what exactly to the ineptitude of Clarks orders?
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

BoredShirtless wrote:
The Russians getting confused on whether they were meant to take the airport means what exactly to the ineptitude of Clarks orders?
The Russians where not "confused" they knew they weren't suppose to enter Kosavo and there transports where intercepted by NATO fighters and ordered to turn around. They took the airfield specifically to force NATO to give them a role in the occupation.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:
The Russians getting confused on whether they were meant to take the airport means what exactly to the ineptitude of Clarks orders?
The Russians where not "confused" they knew they weren't suppose to enter Kosavo and there transports where intercepted by NATO fighters and ordered to turn around. They took the airfield specifically to force NATO to give them a role in the occupation.
And does that suddenly make Clarks plan worth more then a bucket of pig shit?
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

BoredShirtless wrote:
And does that suddenly make Clarks plan worth more then a bucket of pig shit?
I've openly stated how stupid I thought he acted several times now, at least once a day since it was first rumored he was going to run actually. However that doesn't mean I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and make his actions look worse then they where which is what you your where doing.
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Post by Gambler »

Sea Skimmer wrote:The Russians where not "confused" they knew they weren't suppose to enter Kosavo and there transports where intercepted by NATO fighters and ordered to turn around. They took the airfield specifically to force NATO to give them a role in the occupation.
Yes, but you have to consider the russians had expected to be part of the KFOR.
The Russians, who played a crucial role in persuading Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to end the war, had expected to police their own sector of Kosovo, independent of Nato.

When they did not get it, they felt double-crossed.
I wonder, where they promised to take part in peacekeeping Kosovo? If yes, then no wonder they felt double-crossed by the NATO.

BoredShirtless just a nitpick of something I think you got wrong:
What do you mean? It shows that he ordered the British to line their tanks across a Russian runway!
It wasn't a russian runway but the Pristina airport in Kosovo that Clark wanted to block, so the russians couldn't land airplaines with reinforcements.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:
And does that suddenly make Clarks plan worth more then a bucket of pig shit?
I've openly stated how stupid I thought he acted several times now, at least once a day since it was first rumored he was going to run actually.
In other words, your nitpick changes nothing. Thanks for getting the point.
Sea Skimmer wrote: However that doesn't mean I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and make his actions look worse then they where which is what you your where doing.
Blah blah you're a big meany rah rah whatever.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Gambler wrote:BoredShirtless just a nitpick of something I think you got wrong:
BoredShirtless wrote:What do you mean? It shows that he ordered the British to line their tanks across a Russian runway!
It wasn't a russian runway but the Pristina airport in Kosovo that Clark wanted to block, so the russians couldn't land airplaines with reinforcements.
Yeah I know. It's a lot easier to type "Russian airport" then "the airport the Russians had occupied", yeah?
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Post by Stravo »

Quoting fixed.
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BoredShirtless wrote:The best time to measure a mans character is when he's under pressure. This thread sort of shows that Clark is a fucking moron.
Excuse me, but who the fuck do you think you are? What military did you serve with? How many wars have you fought in? How many armies and air forces have you commanded? I be interested to know this, seeing as you presume to call a well honored military commander with numerous distinctions a fucking moron. Or are you just another snot nosed fan boy who thinks his experience surfing military websites from his house makes him quite the military strategist.
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Post by Andrew J. »

Moore may be able to make thought-provoking documentaries, but he's dead wrong if he thinks Clark has a chance in hell of winning.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Gambler wrote: Yes, but you have to consider the russians had expected to be part of the KFOR.
No, they had no reason to expect that since they had been heavily against the entire conflict and some people in NATO were suggesting that they might have been aiding the Serbs.
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Post by Joe »

Wicked Pilot wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:The best time to measure a mans character is when he's under pressure. This thread sort of shows that Clark is a fucking moron.
Excuse me, but who the fuck do you think you are? What military did you serve with? How many wars have you fought in? How many armies and air forces have you commanded? I be interested to know this, seeing as you presume to call a well honored military commander with numerous distinctions a fucking moron. Or are you just another snot nosed fan boy who thinks his experience surfing military websites from his house makes him quite the military strategist.
I want to agree with you, I really do, but that is a blatant ad hominem attack and you know it.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Durran Korr wrote:but that is a blatant ad hominem attack and you know it.
When retards go around calling Einstein stupid, I point it out.
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Post by Joe »

Wicked Pilot wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:but that is a blatant ad hominem attack and you know it.
When retards go around calling Einstein stupid, I point it out.
No, you just pointed on the fact that BS was not military nor ex-military and used that as a basis for dismissing his argument.

I have never been in the military. Does that mean I can't point out that Douglas MacArthur, another decorated commander, made some very poor decisions during his military service?
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Post by Trytostaydead »

Wicked Pilot wrote: Excuse me, but who the fuck do you think you are? What military did you serve with? How many wars have you fought in? How many armies and air forces have you commanded? I be interested to know this, seeing as you presume to call a well honored military commander with numerous distinctions a fucking moron. Or are you just another snot nosed fan boy who thinks his experience surfing military websites from his house makes him quite the military strategist.
Ouch. While in principle I agree with what you said, likewise you need to cool it. It's people like Clark and YOU I might add whose duty it is to defend me if I were to feel like calling my leaders morons and other naughty names.

Granted, there have been many stupid commanders but it should also be acknowledged that commanders these days, I hope, are not arrogant enough to presume a showdown even with a fading superpower. The news likewise likes to sensationalize and does NOT always tell all the facts for the simple reason that the facts are not available to the general public.

The FACT that Clark is still running the show says a lot.

..but then again, so is John Ashcroft so what do I know? :(
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Post by Raptor 597 »

Durran Korr wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:but that is a blatant ad hominem attack and you know it.
When retards go around calling Einstein stupid, I point it out.
No, you just pointed on the fact that BS was not military nor ex-military and used that as a basis for dismissing his argument.

I have never been in the military. Does that mean I can't point out that Douglas MacArthur, another decorated commander, made some very poor decisions during his military service?
Yes, you can but it's usually taken that unless you've seen some reasonable service that you can't really recommendwhat specifics were needed. And maybe because yu don't know everything about the situation at the time, fog of war, etc. A good analogy is this: Few should ever overlycritize a Chess Champions because it appears to be a blunder unless another cHess Master. Afterall, I doubt that the novice criticizing could ever survive to make that blundering move.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

I love how Moore claims he was attacked for criticizing the war, when his main offense was hijacking an unrelated forum so he could go on his personal diatribes. You didn't see Peter O'Toole bitching about wheelclamping or whatever.
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Sea Skimmer wrote:No, they had no reason to expect that since they had been heavily against the entire conflict and some people in NATO were suggesting that they might have been aiding the Serbs.
NATO members were against the conflict too, but Russia saved NATO the burden of going into Kosovo and getting in an embarassing war in really fucked up terrain. The Serbs were/are good, as far as Balkan armies go- the put up an excellent defense against massive NATO bombing and were kicking the KLA's arse right up until they left. Russia deserved to be in there, and it's presence mollified the Serbs (e.g. the cheering in the streets as the BTRs went by).
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Post by SPOOFE »

Moore's backing Clark? I wonder if we'll see Clark campaign adds that splice footage from three different Bush speeches to make a clip of Dubya saying "I rape babies" as a smeer tactic. And Moore's fans will continue to lick his asshole for more (no pun intended).
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Post by PzGren »

Ok, I DO serve in the military as an officer, and the one thing I have learned about strategy and tactics is, that it is vital to gather all information available to be able to make a decision. As we can't (well, I can't) recall all the strategic and tactical variables, I think it is rather arrogant to judge a generals (and presumably his staff's) descision!
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

PzGren wrote:Ok, I DO serve in the military as an officer, and the one thing I have learned about strategy and tactics is, that it is vital to gather all information available to be able to make a decision. As we can't (well, I can't) recall all the strategic and tactical variables, I think it is rather arrogant to judge a generals (and presumably his staff's) descision!
Yet we judge politicians decisions all the time, is that arrogant? we do not know exactly what information, or lack, of they operate by, but we judge them via the media or with our familys and freinds, and at election time of, course. A general is human and is therefor subject to the same foiliables as the rest of us.
If Clark had made a choice that had brought the US and Russia to the point of war, you had better beleive people will judge him, and in such a circumstance having acsess to all the information is beside the point.

Being a general, or anything else in life, does no absolve you from critisism of your actions especialy if your actions bring harm to others.
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