'Do not call" list on hold

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'Do not call" list on hold

Post by fgalkin »

Linky

'Do not call' list on hold
U.S. court rules FTC overstepped its authority when it set up the list to block telemarketing calls.
September 24, 2003: 3:34 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - A federal court has blocked the national "do not call" list -- meant to allow consumers to stop unwanted telephone sales calls -- just days before it was scheduled to take effect.

The ruling Tuesday by the U.S. District Court in Oklahoma was a victory for the Direct Marketing Association and telemarketers who said the registry violated their rights under the First and Fifth Amendments to the Constitution.

Judge Lee West ruled that the Federal Trade Commission cannot enforce the do-not-call registry. The FTC has signed up some 50 million phone numbers for the list, which was due to become effective Oct. 1.

In a statement Wednesday, the DMA acknowledged that millions of American do not want to receive telephone marketing calls. The group said it supports the idea of a list for consumers to express their preference not to be solicited by telephone, and pointed out that for years it has offered its own no-call system for consumers.

The DMA is a trade group representing about 5,000 U.S. companies. Other plaintiffs, all telemarketers, were U.S. Security, Chartered Benefit Services Inc., Global Contact Services Inc. and InfoCision Management Corp.

FTC Chairman Timothy Muris called the decision was "clearly incorrect," and vowed the agency will "seek every recourse to give American consumers a choice to stop unwanted telemarketing calls."

House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Billy Tauzin, R-La., and the committee's ranking member, John Dingell, D-Mich., said they were disappointed by the ruling but are confident it will be overturned.

"We will continue to monitor the situation and will take whatever legislative action is necessary to ensure consumers can stop intrusive calls from unwanted telemarketers," the lawmakers said in a statement.

The FTC's do-not-call list was created in early 2002 and implemented this year after Congress ordered the agency to make rules preventing abusive and deceptive telemarketing practices.

Plaintiffs challenged the creation of the list and its prohibition of "abandoned calls," defined as one in which the telemarketer does not get on the line within two seconds of calling a consumer. They wanted the court to prohibit the FTC from enforcing the registry and rules against abandoned calls.

West agreed regarding the registry, but disagreed regarding abandoned calls.

The judge held that it was "inappropriate" for Congress to have allowed the FTC to interpret the congressional orders on its own, saying it "raises serious constitutional questions."

West agreed with the plaintiffs' argument that Congress should have given an "unambiguous grant of authority" for the FTC to create the registry and other rules.

"Admittedly, the elimination of telemarketing fraud and the prohibition against deceptive and abusive telemarketing acts or practices are significant public concerns," the court wrote in its order. "However, an administrative agency's power to regulate in the public interest must always be grounded in a valid grant of authority from Congress."


Muris disputed that, and said the FTC was given "clear legislative direction" in creating the do-not-call registry.

"On Feb. 13, 2003, the Congress passed the Do Not Call Implementation Act, which authorized the FTC to collect fees from sellers and telemarketers to implement and enforce the provisions relating to the do-not-call registry," Muris said.

"The president signed this bill on March 11, 2003. Moreover, on Feb. 20, 2003, the president signed the Omnibus Appropriations Act, which authorizes the FTC to implement and enforce the do-not-call provisions of the Telemarketing Sales Rule," he added.

The DMA and other plaintiffs argued the do-not-call registry violated their rights under the First Amendment, allowing freedom of speech, and the Fifth Amendment, which grants due process of law. They said the FTC's rules "discriminate against speech based upon content and identity of speakers and ... suppresses far more speech than necessary."


The FTC argued that the creation of the registry is a correct interpretation of Congress' orders to to prevent abusive telephone marketing practices, because the FTC considers calls to a number on the registry abusive.

West agreed with the plaintiffs only on their complaint about the do-not-call registry. He upheld rules against abandoned calls and unauthorized charges on a customer's account, agreeing with the FTC that they are unfair practices.
-- Reuters contributed to this story.
Fucking telemarketers. :evil:

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Post by Stormbringer »

I don't see on what possible grounds it could be overturned. It's simply people expressing their preference not to be called and having their wishes actually count for something.
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Post by beyond hope »

I foresee the district court being slapped down over this. Hard. If 50 million americans don't want to be called this will pass, either now when their ruling is overturned or later when Congress crafts a new law to authorize it.
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Post by Soontir C'boath »

I wonder which party will grab the slogan. We're going to pass this bill for you vote our party!~Jason
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Post by beyond hope »

They'll be fighting tooth and nail to take the credit... I'd bet it's one of the few things that both parties can agree on.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Its a load of bullshit I expect will quickly be crushed by a higher court.
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Post by beyond hope »

House votes to authorize Do Not Call list.

House vote was 412-8 with the Senate voting on it later today. The goal is to get it on the President's desk as fast as possible. [gloating]Oh, I'm afraid the Do Not Call List will be quite operational when October 1st arrives[/gloating].

As Rep. Billy Tauzin put it: "Fifty million Americans can't be wrong."
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

beyond hope wrote:As Rep. Billy Tauzin put it: "Fifty million Americans can't be wrong."
More people have been wrong before, but in this case they are right. I frankly don't see the logic behind this ruling. It's not the government telling these companies not to call, it is THE INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS! It's their phone goddamnit! I paid for my phone and the eletricity that runs it. If I don't want these telemarketing shitwits to use what I paid for, then that's my goddamn right!
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Post by beyond hope »

Basically, the logic was "congress told the FTC to come up with solutions, but they never specifically wrote a law saying 'make a Do Not Call list'..." although once the FTC came up with the idea, Congress authorized funding for it. The bright side is that after the authorizing act gets passed, the telemarketing industry will be left with their "free speech" argument as their only means of attack on the Do Not Call list.

Update: the Senate is currently debating the Do Not Call registry.
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Post by Nathan F »

Thankfully, Tennessee's is still in place.
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Post by Nathan F »

On second thought, it IS fun to screw with the telemarketer's heads...

"Hello, is Mr. Soandso here?"

"Uhm, I don't know, let me check...HEY JOE, YOU DONE WITH THAT BLOW UP DOLL...YEAH...YEAH, SOMEONE IS ON THE PHONE FOR YOU, HEY, CAN I BORROW IT FOR FIVE MINUTES?"

All you hear is a satisfying *click*.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

What really fucks me off in the UK is the latest practice...call and hang up as soon as the customer picks up....the person then does ringback incase it was something important...the number is one charged at £1/minute.....
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Post by beyond hope »

Update: a second judge is now blocking operation of the Do Not Call list on free-speech grounds...

Story here.
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Post by Nathan F »

Where the heck do we dig up all these moron judges at? First off was the Roy Moore deal (I personally don't have much of an opinion on the subject, but many are against him), then the Norwegian judge who said that touching a girl on the arse or breast isn't sexual harrassment, and now THIS...
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Post by beyond hope »

It gets worse: if the telemarketers' lawyer is using the same argument I've heard from them before, they're claiming that putting a phone in your house basically is an invitation for anyone and everyone to call you. That argument, of course, doesn't really explain why some people go to the trouble of having their numbers unlisted, using Caller ID, etc., but that doesn't seem to faze them.

As to where they get these judges, my guess is Judicial Activists R' Us.
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Post by Dahak »

Luckily this shit is illegal here in Germany... I certainly would run amok if I get called by those freaks every now and then...
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Post by beyond hope »

There's justice in the world after all... it seems that people have discovered Judge Lee West's home and office numbers, and they've been overwhelming both with calls to express their disapproval over his ruling (Judge West was the judge in the first ruling. Story links here and here. I'm sure that Judge Edward Nottingham's contact info will be out shortly.
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

beyond hope wrote:There's justice in the world after all... it seems that people have discovered Judge Lee West's home and office numbers, and they've been overwhelming both with calls to express their disapproval over his ruling (Judge West was the judge in the first ruling. Story links here and here. I'm sure that Judge Edward Nottingham's contact info will be out shortly.
hmm make me wonder if the callers are also telling the Judge if HE was on the do not call list they wouldn`t have called him?
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Stormbringer wrote:I don't see on what possible grounds it could be overturned. It's simply people expressing their preference not to be called and having their wishes actually count for something.
Sorry to say this, but I agree with you. I think most people seem to believe that popular opinion will overwhelm the courts, but they don't seem to get the fact that the courts in the United States don't work this way. Even if everyone in America supported it, the courts would still rule against it IF it is in violation of the rights of the Telemarketers.

That said, I'm certainly not happy about this. Telemarketing is intrusive, annoying and evil. But if the US Supreme Court picks this case up and rules in favor of the Telemarketers, then there isn't anything we can do.
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Post by beyond hope »

First off, Dial-A-Moron

Judge West's chambers: (405) 609-5140
Judge Nottingham's chambers: (303) 844-5018
American Teleservices: (866) 500-4272

I'm certain, given their views on freedom of speech, that none of them would mind a call. Note that in all 3 cases, those numbers are publicly available.
The Kernel wrote:But if the US Supreme Court picks this case up and rules in favor of the Telemarketers, then there isn't anything we can do.
Sure there is. Judge NottingSpam ruled that the Do Not Call list unfairly discriminates against certain calls while allowing others (ie., it has an exception for charities.) The method to remove this objection is obvious: ban 'em all.
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Post by beyond hope »

Judge Who Nixed Call Registry Is on List
Sat Sep 27, 7:33 PM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!



DENVER - The office phone number of a federal judge who ruled last week that a national do-not-call registry is unconstitutional was among the thousands already on the list.



U.S. District Judge Edward Nottingham's number was added in July to the registry, which was designed to block telemarketers' calls.


It wasn't clear whether Nottingham himself registered the number or knew it had been registered. A call to the office Saturday was not immediately returned.


Nottingham on Thursday stopped the Federal Trade Commission from implementing the registry, ruling it was an unconstitutional infringement on free speech.


The FTC Web site was set up to allow anyone to register their number, remove it or verify whether a number was registered. An automated response from the site verified that Nottingham's number was registered on July 28.


The Boston Globe reported the listing in its Saturday editions and said Nottingham did not return its messages seeking comment Friday.
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Telemarketers can do what they want, except bother me

Post by Captain Murphy »

The Kernel wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:I don't see on what possible grounds it could be overturned. It's simply people expressing their preference not to be called and having their wishes actually count for something.
Sorry to say this, but I agree with you. I think most people seem to believe that popular opinion will overwhelm the courts, but they don't seem to get the fact that the courts in the United States don't work this way. Even if everyone in America supported it, the courts would still rule against it IF it is in violation of the rights of the Telemarketers.

That said, I'm certainly not happy about this. Telemarketing is intrusive, annoying and evil. But if the US Supreme Court picks this case up and rules in favor of the Telemarketers, then there isn't anything we can do.

Old friend, our courts may be supposed to work like that, but our damn judges have political affiliations and ideas of their own. Instead of being neutral parties judging unbiastly, they're too afraid to do what isn't popular. Take our California recall for instance, Do you have any doubt that the reason the recall was halted was because the majority in that court are Democrats, and do you think if it goes to the Republican supreme court that it wont be overturned? The majority of our Judges are idiots and have no clue how to not be biast. They may have the "good will" to try and be more fair then other countries judges because they're told by "societies moral values" and our countries rightly thinking "fair trial"; but society and it's crap called ignorance, or hardheadedness ensures that the masses think that each policy that would be better for their individual gain is obviously the correct one means the judges are wrong if they don't agree with the side with the most pressure. So judges are influenced by their own ideals and societies pressure, even the most honest ones, because they are after all.. human.

The due not call list in my opinion is not just a list. It's me actually telling them not to call me. Freedom is what I want more then anything, but harrasment and pushing views onto other people is harrasment. These companies calling at dinner time and pretending like what they have to say is important is crap I don't want in my life. The due not call list will let me communicate to every call bombing agency out there that I don't want them calling me. Whether they call your or there mother's I don't care and is none of my buisiness, but I've gotten tired of even fucking with them when they call.
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Post by Pablo Sanchez »

beyond hope wrote:It gets worse: if the telemarketers' lawyer is using the same argument I've heard from them before, they're claiming that putting a phone in your house basically is an invitation for anyone and everyone to call you. That argument, of course, doesn't really explain why some people go to the trouble of having their numbers unlisted, using Caller ID, etc., but that doesn't seem to faze them.
That's fucking stupid. When the telemarketer calls you, you can tell him to take you off of his list and he is legally obligated to do so. Why should it be different to preemptively make this demand?
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Post by beyond hope »

Apparently, judge Nottingham's argument was that the list favored one form of speech over another by allowing charity and political calls while banning commercial ones. Of course, that argument is still questionable because the Supreme Court has already ruled that political speech has a greater "weight" than commercial speech when it comes to laws requiring equal airtime for candidates. So, contrary to what the telemarketers would tell us, there already exist different "levels" for the protection of free speech.
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