Bowling for Columbine (Here we go again)

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-28 02:45pm

Instead of trying to dredge up Mike's thread which is a few pages back in this forum I guess I'd start one now that I have finally seen it juts 5 minutes ago. A few things to keep in mind, I do NOT like Michael moore, I find him to be a manipulative little shit whose leftist agenda makes me ill. I watched this movie WANTING to hate it, ready to poke holes in it after hearing all the bullshit against it and the visceral hatred some on this site have shown to it.

I watched it intently, ready to see all the lies, the fabrications, the utter hatred of the gun culture and America in general.

What did I see instead?

A very telling portrayal of a culture of fear in America. He propped up every argument the gun nuts have put up for the reason why we need guns and why the US has such gun violence and shot it down. The number of gun kills in comparison to the rest of the developed world was stark and sobering. The comparison of the historical reasons given by gun nuts that we are a historically violent people opposed by German history, Japanese history, British history was also an excellent rebuttal.

I generally agree with his view of the American culture of fear. The most stark comparison was the Canadian segment when he visits Canada to see what was different about them. The health care part was closest and dearest to my heart as that is the issue that I bleieve will be a central issue for the future of the US. Why are we dragging our feet about nationalizing some sort of healthcare, why out of most industrialized world are we so unwilling, almost rabidly so opposed to even exploring the idea?

Were there problems with this movie? Oh yes. The cartoon on American history was both offensive and inaccurate to say the least. The staged events particualrly the one at the KMART was just ridiculous and added NOTHING to the thesis of teh film, I ended up fast forwardng through these parts. I also think that Moore should keep his fat, dirty, sloppy mouth shut when he makes those smart little jibes during interviews, all they do is make me roll my eyes and want to skip it.

The creative editing was NOT one of those points because its getting across the general point, the NRA was offensive and insesntive in the treatment of gun massacres.

There was the segement about the 6 yr old boy that killed a classmate and the Sheriff stated that the ones most vocal about having the child tried as an adult and punished to the greatest extent of the law were the NRA people. It was almost as if in reflex, almost as if they can't help themselves the NRA folks knee jerk response to any gun massacre is "HEY, we have a motherfucking right to these weapons, don't even THINK about taking or restructing those right." Its sad really.

Nor does Moore blame the gun culture, the gun culture is an ASPECT of his Culture of Fear argument.

aronkerkhof · Post by **aronkerkhof** » 2003-09-28 03:46pm

I thought he did a good job of taking the air out of both sides of the gun debate. The one argument he didn't address was the theory that armed citizenry acts as both a restraint against oppressive government and as a pressure valve to avoid the bloody revolution and internecine continental warfare that Europe and Asia have experienced last century. I don't know what to make of that argument myself, but thats the sentiment behind the "cold dead hands" policy, and to not address it at all seemed odd.

As far as culture of fear goes, I think there is a big disconnect between urban/rural areas of America. I don't think that rural and even suburban areas "live in fear". I'm just 15 minutes outside of Indianapolis, and I don't lock my house nor my car doors. I sure as hell did when I lived in downtown Indy, and still got my car broken into twice in one year. If you've only lived in either one place or the other your entire life, you just can't "get" what the other side is like.

Since urban areas seems to be strongly liberal influenced, and rural areas seems to be largely conservatively based, we're seeing a rapid polarization of just about any subject or issue, and a decreasing willingness to compromise on anything. Urbanites see the rural people as backwards ignorant gun-toting lunatics and the 'country folk' see people living in the city as a bunch of paranoid simpering fools. Neither of which is really a healthy well rounded view. What can be done about it? Maybe have the red states ceede from the blue ones?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-28 05:01pm

aronkerkhof wrote:I thought he did a good job of taking the air out of both sides of the gun debate. The one argument he didn't address was the theory that armed citizenry acts as both a restraint against oppressive government and as a pressure valve to avoid the bloody revolution and internecine continental warfare that Europe and Asia have experienced last century. I don't know what to make of that argument myself, but thats the sentiment behind the "cold dead hands" policy, and to not address it at all seemed odd.

Maybe he didn't bother addressing it because it's a wacko theory, subscribed to only by extremists. He was aiming only at the mainstream arguments from both sides. Just look at Iraq, where they had the right to bear arms under Hussein but that was pretty much the only right they had.

As far as culture of fear goes, I think there is a big disconnect between urban/rural areas of America. I don't think that rural and even suburban areas "live in fear". I'm just 15 minutes outside of Indianapolis, and I don't lock my house nor my car doors. I sure as hell did when I lived in downtown Indy, and still got my car broken into twice in one year. If you've only lived in either one place or the other your entire life, you just can't "get" what the other side is like.

Rural areas live in fear of "the other", which they rationalize as the Outsider, often from The City. Their culture of fear is a culture of fearing the Outsider, not their neighbour. It's a slightly different variation but it's no less pervasive.

Since urban areas seems to be strongly liberal influenced, and rural areas seems to be largely conservatively based, we're seeing a rapid polarization of just about any subject or issue, and a decreasing willingness to compromise on anything. Urbanites see the rural people as backwards ignorant gun-toting lunatics and the 'country folk' see people living in the city as a bunch of paranoid simpering fools.

That's not really accurate. Urbanites see country folk as socially regressive, uneducated bumpkins, and they have statistics on alcoholism, teen pregnancy, and racism (or more accurately, the lack of racial integration) to back them up. Country folk see city folk as either "bleeding-heart liberals" (of course, in their minds, everyone who doesn't try to suppress religious/racial minorities or the less fortunate is a "bleeding-heart liberal") or bloodthirsty gangbangers, and again, they quote statistics to prove their point.

Neither of which is really a healthy well rounded view. What can be done about it? Maybe have the red states ceede from the blue ones?

Maybe make the Southerners enter the 21st century instead of affixing themselves in the 19th.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-28 05:02pm

Stravo wrote:I watched it intently, ready to see all the lies, the fabrications, the utter hatred of the gun culture and America in general.

Of course you did. The NRA and its various stooges and apologists have been spectacularly aggressive in their attempts to poison the well. Just look at how people like Shep and Stormbringer act as if the entire movie was about Charlton Heston's speech in Denver.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-28 05:08pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:I watched it intently, ready to see all the lies, the fabrications, the utter hatred of the gun culture and America in general.
Of course you did. The NRA and its various stooges and apologists have been spectacularly aggressive in their attempts to poison the well. Just look at how people like Shep and Stormbringer act as if the entire movie was about Charlton Heston's speech in Denver.

I actually expected the movie to focus almost exclusively on the gun culture and gun rights. I was pleasantly surprised to see it move beyond that, to see it as a piece in the puzzle not the actual puzzle itself, and frankly I haven't a clue what makes us so damned different. Why is there a culture of fear? Why do the news shows focus on the negative?

In NYC we have the lowest crime rate we have ever had in decades. We're leading the nation in the per capita drop in crime. As someone who grew up in NYC and particualrly the late 70's era where the city was nothing more than a festering pit I can tell you that it is nothing short of miraculous. Yet if you watch the news in the city you would never know it. Rapes and murders head up every newscast.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 05:11pm

Rapes and murders head up every newscast.

As far as I know, the U.S. doesn't come out too terribly statistically with regard to rape compared with other developed countries. Homicide is where we come out poorly.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2003-09-28 05:15pm

but thats because rape and homicide make good news, people don't care about the guy who helped the old lady across the street. However people care about people who they can blame for everything that is wrong with society... what im trying to say is, would you watch the news if they only reported good things?

i know i wouldn't... not that i watch news, i tend to read it

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-28 05:15pm

Durran Korr wrote:
Rapes and murders head up every newscast.
As far as I know, the U.S. doesn't come out too terribly statistically with regard to rape compared with other developed countries. Homicide is where we come out poorly.

Yeah but the point is that there are far less here in the city and instead of saying, damn what a great job, this city has been reborn, what do we get? The same old rape and murder cases. People were absolutely sure that NYC would remain the dark ages forever and now you can walk through Times Square with your family. Its nothing short of amazing yet precious little is said of it in the news.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 05:17pm

Stravo wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
Rapes and murders head up every newscast.
As far as I know, the U.S. doesn't come out too terribly statistically with regard to rape compared with other developed countries. Homicide is where we come out poorly.
Yeah but the point is that there are far less here in the city and instead of saying, damn what a great job, this city has been reborn, what do we get? The same old rape and murder cases. People were absolutely sure that NYC would remain the dark ages forever and now you can walk through Times Square with your family. Its nothing short of amazing yet precious little is said of it in the news.

I gotta disagree here. The enormous increase in the safety of NYC under Giuliani has not been ignored in the media.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-28 05:18pm

Durran Korr wrote:
Rapes and murders head up every newscast.
As far as I know, the U.S. doesn't come out too terribly statistically with regard to rape compared with other developed countries. Homicide is where we come out poorly.

The US has 4 times the rape rate of Germany. Mind you, Germany has legalized prostitution, which might help explain the difference.

In any case, I believe the newscasters' "if it bleeds, it leads" policy is the result of too much competition. There are too many stations and networks competing for viewers nowadays, so they keep amping up the spectacle in order to attract viewers.

Fear is a powerful advertising method; look at car ads for example (the most brilliant one is the tire ad with the baby sitting in the tire and the subtext about safety; without saying a word, it tells you that if you don't buy their tires, YOU MAY BE PUTTING YOUR BABY AT RISK). Given that well-established fact, it's not surprising that hotly competitive TV stations in the US would be doing this.

Why do we see less of it in other countries? Frankly, it's because there's less competition. Most other countries do not have the sheer number of competing networks and stations that the US has. The mantra that competition is always better is a fine doctrine when talking about manufacturing productivity, but there are times when it produces less than satisfactory results, and this is one of them.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-28 05:19pm

Durran Korr wrote:
Stravo wrote:
Durran Korr wrote: As far as I know, the U.S. doesn't come out too terribly statistically with regard to rape compared with other developed countries. Homicide is where we come out poorly.
Yeah but the point is that there are far less here in the city and instead of saying, damn what a great job, this city has been reborn, what do we get? The same old rape and murder cases. People were absolutely sure that NYC would remain the dark ages forever and now you can walk through Times Square with your family. Its nothing short of amazing yet precious little is said of it in the news.
I gotta disagree here. The enormous increase in the safety of NYC under Giuliani has not been ignored in the media.

Interestingly enough, the local media here has not focussed much about it, partly I'm sure because the liberal establishment cannot bear the fact that Giulani's conservative (almost fascist some would say) policies saved the city from crime but that cannot be the sole reason as even conservative slanted papers and media focusses on the crime that DOES occur here.

I find it fascinating that outside media focusses more on the revitlization than our own.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-28 05:19pm

Durran Korr wrote:I gotta disagree here. The enormous increase in the safety of NYC under Giuliani has not been ignored in the media.

Do you live in NYC? Stravo is saying that the local news stations still try to make the city look like it's caught in the grip of a crime wave every night. I see no reason to doubt his word, and since you live quite a long way from NYC, you have no basis to do so either.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-09-28 05:24pm

Moore put up a page to counter the arguements brought forth against BfC

Wacko attackos

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 05:27pm

I find it fascinating that outside media focusses more on the revitlization than our own.

Oh, I thought you were referring to all newscasts, not just local.

The US has 4 times the rape rate of Germany. Mind you, Germany has legalized prostitution, which might help explain the difference.

Yikes. I stand corrected.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-09-28 05:31pm

Durran Korr wrote:
The US has 4 times the rape rate of Germany. Mind you, Germany has legalized prostitution, which might help explain the difference.
Yikes. I stand corrected.

The situation seems even worse if you compare the U.S to England (13 times the rape rate) or, heaven forbid, Japan (20 times). I don't know the mean numbers for the E.U as a whole. Anyone?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 05:35pm

We do have less overall crime, however...4,176 per 100,000, compared with Germany's 7,736.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-28 05:37pm

Durran Korr wrote:We do have less overall crime, however...4,176 per 100,000, compared with Germany's 7,736.

Yes, that's one of the interesting aspects of American crime statistics. Compared to other countries, you tend to have less property crime, but more violent crime. Frankly, I'd gladly take more property crime and less violent crime if I had to choose one or the other.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-28 05:40pm

It's kind of amazing, looking at the statistics, seeing how ridiculously low theft, for example, is compared with murder.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-28 05:56pm

I checked out the FBI's uniform crime stats for 2001, and saw some interesting figures regarding cities.

New York was listed at 8.02M population, with 1530 rapes (19.1 per capita, ie- 100,000 population). A random sampling of small towns gave some interesting results. Fairfield, Alabama (pop 12429) had 24.1 rapes per capita. Anniston, Alabama (pop 24370) had 151.8 rapes per capita. Grand Island, Nebraska (pop 42989) had 41.9 rapes per capita. Dickson, Tennessee (pop 12353) had 81 rapes per capita.

In fact, you have to cherry-pick small towns in order to find examples with a lower rape rate than NYC, because you'll find a surprising number of small towns which have a rape rate which is far higher than that of NYC. Of course, small towns usually don't have their own local TV station to run around and hype up these crimes, so their citizens live in the delusion that big cities are hives of scum and villainy while their "wholesome" small towns are safe.

Funny how "common knowledge" facts about cities vs small towns can sometimes be total bullshit, eh?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-09-28 06:02pm

What the fuck is going on in Anniston, Alabama? That's blood curdling!

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-09-28 06:04pm

I'm not really suprised.

In my High School, unless the girl tries to beat the guy off, she's not being raped, even if she explicitly told him before that she didn't want to do anything with the guy and he just holds her down and uses her anyway. If a girl's drunk and the guy isn't, and he keeps holding her down or whatnot at a party, "it happens."

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-09-28 06:04pm

*looks at DW's statistics*

Yikes. Honestly, I wouldn't have been more surprised if it turned that housing in NYC was actually cheap.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-09-28 06:08pm

Durran Korr wrote:We do have less overall crime, however...4,176 per 100,000, compared with Germany's 7,736.

Of those, we have 47.5% theft, 12.1% fraud, 11.1% property damage, 3.9% drug offences, 2.7% crimes against the asylum and "foreigner" laws. And 6.8% physical injuries (overall). The rest goes down to minor offences.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-28 06:20pm

Frank Hipper wrote:What the fuck is going on in Anniston, Alabama? That's blood curdling!

Want more? I sorted their spreadsheet by rape rate, and found that that highest rape rate of all cities and towns in the US is found in Muskegon Heights, Michigan. Population: 12112. Rapes per capita in 2001: 239.4

I shit you not. I wonder if Muskegon Heights residents know that they have 12.5 times NYC's rate of rape.

BTW, NYC ranks 1559 out of 2711 cities and towns in the USA for rape. That's right; there are more than fifteen hundred cities and towns in the USA with a higher rate of rape than NYC. And let's face it: an awful lot of those fifteen hundred cities and towns must be of the "wholesome small town" variety.

And how's this for another eye-opener? Remember Fairfield, Alabama, with their 24.1 rapes per capita? Well, I swear I just picked them randomly the first time I checked those stats, but they also happen to have the country's highest murder rate, at 96.5 "murders and non-negligent manslaughters" per capita.

Well, I've learned one more thing from this: stay the fuck away from Fairfield, Alabama.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-09-28 06:20pm

Frank Hipper wrote:What the fuck is going on in Anniston, Alabama? That's blood curdling!

Forget Alabama. Dickson, Tennessee has 4x more rapes per capita than New York City.

Frankly, this is not surprising. Not only are small towns racially regressive, but they can also be flagrantly sexist. While women's status in such places has improved, the father is invariably the primary income provider, the mother stays home and does the dishes, et cetera. So males grow up with the idea that women are just breeders and caretakers subtly drilled into their heads.

I'd be interested in seeing crime statistics from other large cities, as well, like Los Angeles, Cleveland, Detroit, Boston, et cetera. Granted, small-town folk love to hold New York City up as the epitome of everything that is evil, so it doesn't take more than NYC crime statistics to crush them, but I'm willing to bet that Detroit and Cleveland have higher crime rates than NYC.

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Bowling for Columbine (Here we go again)

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