Arizona voters back plan on illegals

[MKSheppard]

Az Voters back plan on Illegals

The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com



Arizona voters back plan on illegals

By Valerie Richardson
Published September 29, 2003

A poll shows Arizona voters overwhelmingly support a proposed ballot initiative that would cut off services to illegal immigrants, despite a wall of opposition from both Republican and Democratic politicians.

The poll, released last week by Arizona State University and KAET-TV, found that 70 percent of voters surveyed said they would back the initiative, even though organizers are still gathering signatures to place it on the November 2004 ballot.

"The voters love us, unlike the politicians. There's a real disconnect there," said Kathy McKee, director of Protect Arizona Now.

The public support for the initiative comes despite the opposition of Democratic Gov. Janet Napolitano, Republican Sens. John McCain and Jon Kyl, and the state's congressional delegation. Organizers say the split illustrates the public's growing frustration with their elected leaders on illegal immigration.

"The voters want it, yet the whole elite of the state has lined up against it. That's the state of immigration policy in America," said Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington.

Before the voters can be heard, however, the Protect Arizona Now campaign needs to gather the signatures of 122,612 registered voters. With a shoestring budget, the initiative's proponents plan to rely on volunteers instead of paid signature-gatherers.

The proposal will also have to contend with opposition from prominent Hispanic groups and leaders, now in the process of organizing. State Rep. Ben Miranda said the measure would cost millions to enforce, a factor that could change voters' minds.

"My hope is that reasonable minds will prevail, and when they find out the true implications of this, they'll think twice," Mr. Miranda said.

Still, Mrs. McKee said she was confident they would collect enough signatures, noting that Arizona law gives them until July 1, 2004. If the signatures are approved, the measure would appear on the November 2004 ballot.

The proposal would require Arizonans to show proof of residency before receiving state social and welfare services. Federally mandated services such as public schooling would still be provided. The initiative would also require proof of U.S. citizenship when registering to vote and proof of identity when voting.

Bruce Merrill, the Arizona State University journalism professor who oversaw the poll, predicts that the initiative's support will slip once the opposition campaign begins. Even so, he expects it will win by a comfortable margin.

"It's still very early, and I would expect to see a vigorous campaign against this," said Mr. Merrill. "But if this gets on the ballot, it has an overwhelming chance of passing," he said, noting its 70 percent support. "That's such an enormous percentage that it should win even if there's some erosion."

The statewide poll surveyed 390 registered voters and had a margin of error of plus or minus five percentage points.

The poll could also change some minds among state lawmakers. While the initiative has no Democratic support, some Republican state legislators are backing it, including state Reps. Russell Pearce and Randy Graf, who are serving as senior advisers to Protect Arizona Now.

Most Republicans are taking their cues from the White House, said Mrs. McKee, which doesn't want to alienate Hispanic voters by appearing hostile to undocumented Mexican workers.

"The Republican Party has this attitude that we'll hurt President Bush's Hispanic outreach," she said. "But the poll showed that 40 percent of Hispanic voters are supporting it. And we're registering people to vote. If the Republican Party had any brains, they would get behind this because they could be out there registering voters."

The party also remembers the aftermath of California's Proposition 187, a similar measure supported by Republican Gov. Pete Wilson in 1994. The initiative passed, but was later blamed for energizing Democratic Hispanic voters and banishing Republicans to the political wilderness.

"The strategy of the Republican Party has been to try to keep these issues off the ballot to stop them from energizing the Hispanic vote," Mr. Merrill said.

Camilla Strongin, the Arizona Republican Party's spokeswoman, said the data on whether illegal aliens are actually skimming state benefits aren't conclusive.

"Our position is that no one's clearly defined how serious a problem this is," said Ms. Strongin. "And there are already safeguards that exist within state agencies to prevent abuse."

Even so, organizers say the public perception is that illegal immigration is out of control. The estimated number of illegal aliens in Arizona tripled from 88,000 in 1990 to 283,000 in 2000, according to the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service.

The initiative's supporters point to the drain on state hospitals, notably Maricopa County Hospital, which is reportedly losing $2 million each week because of the flood of illegal immigrants seeking care.

Meanwhile, the state's welfare program has ballooned from $200 million in fiscal 2001 to $1.2 billion in fiscal 2002, an increase they say is due in part to illegal immigrants tapping into the system.

Protect Arizona Now's backers also cite an anecdote in which former Republican Gov. Jane Hull attended a swearing-in ceremony for new citizens. When she encouraged them to register to vote afterward, about half of them told her it wasn't necessary because they were already voting, according to campaign organizers.

"In this state, you just can't miss what's going on. It's dire," said Mrs. McKee. "The government is ignoring the law and in some cases breaking the law. People can't close their eyes much longer."
[/i]

[Stormbringer]

It's about time measures like this pass. There's no point in supporting illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense.

[MKSheppard]

It's about time measures like this pass. There's no point in supporting illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense.

See how the major political parties both are lining up to suck Mexican cock,
even though the majority of the state's population wants something done
about Illegal Immigration?

[Stormbringer]

It's about time measures like this pass. There's no point in supporting illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense.

See how the major political parties both are lining up to suck Mexican cock,even though the majority of the state's population wants something done about Illegal Immigration?

Yes, I do. It's rather unfortunate that the issue has been turned into a matter of race and class war rather than simply recognising it's about illegal immigration. I've never understood how it got to be that if one doesn't provide services to illegal immigrants you're a racist.

[Nathan F]

See how the major political parties both are lining up to suck Mexican cock,even though the majority of the state's population wants something done about Illegal Immigration?

Yes, I do. It's rather unfortunate that the issue has been turned into a matter of race and class war rather than simply recognising it's about illegal immigration. I've never understood how it got to be that if one doesn't provide services to illegal immigrants you're a racist.

You evil racist? You mean you don't want to provide services to those that leech off of the holes in the system?!

[Nathan F]

Uhm, change that first question mark to an exclamation point.

[Darth Wong]

It's about time measures like this pass. There's no point in supporting illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense.

Aren't people worried about a massive crime wave if these people are suddenly cut off?

[MKSheppard]

Aren't people worried about a massive crime wave if these people are suddenly cut off?

You forget this is Arizona. They'll be thrown into desert jails under Joe
Arapio

[Nathan F]

It's about time measures like this pass. There's no point in supporting illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense.

Aren't people worried about a massive crime wave if these people are suddenly cut off?

I think the problem is more of keeping them OUT and making the borders a bit less porous.

[Stravo]

Yes yes, because we know that illegals are swarmning across the border to live in our wondrous welfare state.

Fact is most of these illegals are working in the states they're in at shitty jobs that no one else wants and doing the best they can to raise their families. The anti-immigration folks do their best to paint these illegals as some mongol horde of Welfare defilers that cross the border with the intention of plopping down and waiting for their checks to come every month.

Yet I wonder whose cleaning their toilets, gardening their well manicured lawns and picking their fruits.

This whole movement rmeinds me of the way Irish and Chinese laborers were treated a century ago. "Yeah come here and work for cheap but don't expect anything back from us."

Illegal or not these are human beings. If they can clean your toilet then they can get some food stamps to help them feed their kids.

[MKSheppard]

Yet I wonder whose cleaning their toilets, gardening their well manicured lawns and picking their fruits.

I mow my own damn lawn and let 1,000 flushes clean my toilet, and most
of my fruit is imported from places like Brazil, Argentina.

[Darth Wong]

Yet I wonder whose cleaning their toilets, gardening their well manicured lawns and picking their fruits.

I mow my own damn lawn and let 1,000 flushes clean my toilet, and most of my fruit is imported from places like Brazil, Argentina.

You live in Maryland, which is quite far from the Mexican import zone. Mexican migrant workers are employed very heavily in the Southern part of the US, and by farmers everywhere. Even up here in Canada the farmers rely on Mexican migrant labour in the summers, because they just can't get locals to work that hard for the kind of wages they're willing to pay. It's an underground economy.

[MKSheppard]

You live in Maryland, which is quite far from the Mexican import zone.

Then explain the very heavy concentration of Mexicans in our Gardening
industries here (Grasscutting companies etc)

Even up here in Canada the farmers rely on Mexican migrant labour in the summers, because they just can't get locals to work that hard for the kind of wages they're willing to pay. It's an underground economy.

Or else they're too cheep to pay money down for a decent Harvester

[Darth Wong]

You live in Maryland, which is quite far from the Mexican import zone.

Then explain the very heavy concentration of Mexicans in our Gardening industries here (Grasscutting companies etc)

I doubt it's as heavy as it is in Texas.

Even up here in Canada the farmers rely on Mexican migrant labour in the summers, because they just can't get locals to work that hard for the kind of wages they're willing to pay. It's an underground economy.

Or else they're too cheep to pay money down for a decent Harvester

Of course; that's the whole point I was trying to make. For the money they're willing to spend, no solution works as well as the migrant labourers.

[MKSheppard]

Of course; that's the whole point I was trying to make. For the money they're willing to spend, no solution works as well as the migrant labourers.

Funnily enough, farmers in Iowa have no problem affording harvesters
that cost 300 grand a piece. The cost of the harvester will be paid off in
a few years thanks to the cost savings and the faster harvesting as a result..

You don't get tired, and can harvest at the same rate from sunup to sun down sitting at your seat in the control cab.

[Stravo]

Of course; that's the whole point I was trying to make. For the money they're willing to spend, no solution works as well as the migrant labourers.

Funnily enough, farmers in Iowa have no problem affording harvesters
that cost 300 grand a piece. The cost of the harvester will be paid off in
a few years thanks to the cost savings and the faster harvesting as a result..

You don't get tired, and can harvest at the same rate from sunup to sun down sitting at your seat in the control cab.

So if its that simple Shep WHY don't the farmers do just that in the South west?

[Col. Crackpot]

regarding immigration law there is one thing that should be cracked down on immediately. This is indifference on the part of INS. I'm employed at a plastics manufacturing firm and we use quite a bit of labor through 3rd party employment agencies. After a temp has put in three months work through the agency, we are given the option to hire him/her. I can't tell you how many times we have been unable to do so because of fraudulant I-9's, fake or stolen Social Security #'s etc. You see, when the worker is a temp, he/she is employed by the agency, and the burden of responability (workers comp, immigration status etc.) falls upon the agency.When whe call INS we are treated harshly and told to 'deal with it, we're to busy.' Busy doing what? Playing pin the sombrero on the gringo? To make matters worse, if they do get off their asses and catch you with an illegal, there is holy hell to pay. It drives me nuts.

[Knife]

Yes yes, because we know that illegals are swarmning across the border to live in our wondrous welfare state.

Fact is most of these illegals are working in the states they're in at shitty jobs that no one else wants and doing the best they can to raise their families. The anti-immigration folks do their best to paint these illegals as some mongol horde of Welfare defilers that cross the border with the intention of plopping down and waiting for their checks to come every month.

Yet I wonder whose cleaning their toilets, gardening their well manicured lawns and picking their fruits.

This whole movement rmeinds me of the way Irish and Chinese laborers were treated a century ago. "Yeah come here and work for cheap but don't expect anything back from us."

Illegal or not these are human beings. If they can clean your toilet then they can get some food stamps to help them feed their kids.

I have no qualms with them as workers per say, but what it does is create a second class citizen and the illegal's have little ability to improve their situation and they are being used.

Used by bussnesses as slave labor, used by politicians for votes and political leverage, and used by special interest groups as a reason for those groups to exsist. If you clamp down on illegal immigration, I have no problem in upping the legal immirgration.

[Stormbringer]

It's about time measures like this pass. There's no point in supporting illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense.

Aren't people worried about a massive crime wave if these people are suddenly cut off?

If you want to be techincal, they're criminals already.

And yes, that is a concern. But allowing known illegals to collect state services is not that the way to handle it. Instead we need to tighten security and keep illegal immigration under control.

[Stormbringer]

Personally, to me the problem is not the immigration side of the issue. Immigration is a good thing and should be allowed and encouraged to happen. The problem is those people broke the law to do so and should not be rewarded for that. I'd have no problem with them coming here provided they do so legally.

[Howedar]

I wish I could say I said yes in that survey. But I wasn't surveyed.

[Darth Wong]

It's about time measures like this pass. There's no point in supporting illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense.

Aren't people worried about a massive crime wave if these people are suddenly cut off?

If you want to be techincal, they're criminals already.

Not the kind that robs you at gunpoint, which would be more upsetting.

And yes, that is a concern. But allowing known illegals to collect state services is not that the way to handle it. Instead we need to tighten security and keep illegal immigration under control.

How does that address the issue of illegals who are already in the country?

[Sea Skimmer]

Or else they're too cheep to pay money down for a decent Harvester

Actually for several crops no form of mechanical harvester exists.

[Captain Murphy]

Aren't people worried about a massive crime wave if these people are suddenly cut off?

If you want to be techincal, they're criminals already.

Not the kind that robs you at gunpoint, which would be more upsetting.

And yes, that is a concern. But allowing known illegals to collect state services is not that the way to handle it. Instead we need to tighten security and keep illegal immigration under control.

How does that address the issue of illegals who are already in the country?

In Arizona, you can carry a concealed weapon if you're a law abiding citizen. When people are allowed to carry guns, crime goes down because the hunter becomes the hunted. There are also police in Arizona who are quite good at their job. When an illegal is caught, who knows, maybe we can pay the Mexicans to house their people in their own jails.

Illegals who are in the country can be moved out if they don't have the legal right to be here. I am in support of imigration, however not illegal imigration which is screwing the people who have been here for generations and working hard for their money in the ass.

[Captain Murphy]

Or else they're too cheep to pay money down for a decent Harvester

Actually for several crops no form of mechanical harvester exists.

O' contrare, Almost every crophas a harvester and those that don't would have very quickly. You'd be amazed what inginuity American inventers have, actually, you should already be amazed at it.