EU Constitution

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-10-07 12:58am

So I read that the EU is trying to form a constitution and of course, the big issue is representation. Sound familiar?

So who predicts maybe a century into the future (if we survive that long), the EU becomes overly centralized, federalized and then a civil war erupts? As they say.. history repeats itself.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-10-07 01:33am

Hardly a possibility in this case, the EU constitution is nothing more than a centralised document of all the treaties the EU members have already signed in one 'simple' (and I use that word sparingly) document.

The only issues that I can think of, off the top of my head, that have changed is the single Foreign Minister (mergind the two roles of Patton and Slona), the single four year term of President of the Council (replacing the six month rotating Presidency), and a bit on qualified majority voting, and a restriction on issues that a National Veto can be applied to. And lastly a reduction in the size of the Comission.

To put it in a nutshell, while more power is transfered into the EU Parliament, the balance of power still rests with the Council of Membes (the head of Governments of EU members, ie Presidents/Prime Ministers).

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-10-07 11:05am

Before a century has passed the EU will break down from its own weight.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-10-07 03:33pm

More likley is that it will collapse from germany's inability to pay for its own social wellfare programs.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-10-07 03:55pm

FTeik wrote:Before a century has passed the EU will break down from its own weight.

Gotta love unsupported assertations.

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:More likley is that it will collapse from germany's inability to pay for its own social wellfare programs.

Welfare is a problem that must and is being confronted and dealt with, not only in germany but in all E.U. It's a common issue, not country specific.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-10-07 03:59pm

You'll get our veto when you pry it from our cold dead hands....oh wait...wrong sales pitch

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-10-07 04:09pm

Welfare is a problem that must and is being confronted and dealt with, not only in germany but in all E.U. It's a common issue, not country specific.

Yes, but Germany has the ability to print Euros. I will be shocked to all hell if the politicians in Germany commit political suicide by cutting benefits or rasing income taxes in Germany to unbarable levels when they can just put a "tax" on all of Europe by printing Euros (ie inflating the currecny). Its not like this hasn't happened in Germany before, the hyper-inflation of the Wiemar Republic was not caused by war-reperations (the Wiemar Government actually recieved more money in "loans" from the US then they owned in reperations), but rather from printing money to support their overwhelming welfare state.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-10-07 04:25pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Welfare is a problem that must and is being confronted and dealt with, not only in germany but in all E.U. It's a common issue, not country specific.
Yes, but Germany has the ability to print Euros. I will be shocked to all hell if the politicians in Germany commit political suicide by cutting benefits or rasing income taxes in Germany to unbarable levels when they can just put a "tax" on all of Europe by printing Euros (ie inflating the currecny).

Get your facts right.

The EZB (EuropeanCentralBank) is indepenant from any government, as was the Bundesbank before it. Germany´s former secretary of treasure Theo Waigel went to great lengths and pains to ensure, that the guardian of the common, european currency is able to operate without being pushed around by governments (much to the dislike of France). It is a sad irony, that Germany is one of the countries, that doesn´t manage to get its things together (but for that the current government is to blame).

Its not like this hasn't happened in Germany before, the hyper-inflation of the Wiemar Republic was not caused by war-reperations (the Wiemar Government actually recieved more money in "loans" from the US then they owned in reperations), but rather from printing money to support their overwhelming welfare state.

You are confusing facts. There was no overwhelming welfare-state in Germany after WorldWar I. And the war-reperations were that high, that the french occupied important industrial centres and took installations apart, when Germany wasn´t able to pay its reparations. DURING that time, the state had controll over the CentralBank, but not with the CentralBank after WWII and the EZB.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-10-07 04:43pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:
FTeik wrote:Before a century has passed the EU will break down from its own weight.
Gotta love unsupported assertations.

Indeed, I was about to ask where he purchased his crystal ball.

Welfare is a problem that must and is being confronted and dealt with, not only in germany but in all E.U. It's a common issue, not country specific.

It isn't really that much of a problem in Britain, which is why our economy is doing so well compared to the Euro zone (despite what the "No to the Euro" crowd would have you believe), here is hoping the new growth plan that the big three just announced works out.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-10-07 06:02pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:More likley is that it will collapse from germany's inability to pay for its own social wellfare programs.

We are in the painstaking process of reforming it.
But social welfare is at the core of us and one of the most important things in Germany. We are a "social free-market" federal republic, and not granting those social welfare is against the constitution, which puts the Human Decency at the highest place of all rights.

Thus said, we have had social security systems ever since Bismarck, and it is not going to change.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-10-07 06:04pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:More likley is that it will collapse from germany's inability to pay for its own social wellfare programs.
Welfare is a problem that must and is being confronted and dealt with, not only in germany but in all E.U. It's a common issue, not country specific.

True, but some of the media over here (Wall Street Journal in particular) was reporting how displeased some members of the Euro Zone were that neither Germany nor France could get their deficits within the EU mandated levels, when many of those nations had cut back programs to ensure compliance. I doubt it helped much when each said it would take at least three more years to accomplish a 3% GDP deficit.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-10-07 06:11pm

Of course, Bismarck was really very clever with those social welfare systems. You got a pensions at 65, but the average life expectancy was 64.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-10-07 06:45pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:
FTeik wrote:Before a century has passed the EU will break down from its own weight.
Gotta love unsupported assertations.

It's not unsupported, we all know France will screw it up in some way.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-10-07 06:47pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:
FTeik wrote:Before a century has passed the EU will break down from its own weight.
Gotta love unsupported assertations.
It's not unsupported, we all know France will screw it up in some way.

French girls are tasty.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-10-07 06:58pm

The EZB (EuropeanCentralBank)... <snip>.

Even though the EZB is Independent some member nations retain the right to print (inflate) the currency. Germany is one of those nations (if I remember correctly).

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-10-07 08:27pm

Colonel Olrik wrote: French girls are tasty.

Except for the hairy parts.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-10-07 08:44pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote: Gotta love unsupported assertations.
It's not unsupported, we all know France will screw it up in some way.
French girls are tasty.

Well they would be if they learned what soap was..there is a reason why the French make good perfume

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-10-07 08:51pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote: It's not unsupported, we all know France will screw it up in some way.
French girls are tasty.
Well they would be if they learned what soap was..there is a reason why the French make good perfume

That's a popular misconception. The french girls I know are hot, clean and incredibly sensual wtih their french accented english. Granted, though, the one I actually dated didn't shave under the arms. But she didn't need to do it, anyway. She looked very nice that way (and she did shave other places..). And now I'm daydreaming again about a girl long lost.

Fucking story of my life.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-10-08 11:19am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
The EZB (EuropeanCentralBank)... <snip>.
Even though the EZB is Independent some member nations retain the right to print (inflate) the currency. Germany is one of those nations (if I remember correctly).

Would make no sense to be independant, if somebody else is able to print the money. What you mean is, that the former national banks print the money and make the coins as subsidiaries of the EZB.

As for the german problems, Britain suffered similar, if not worse problems with welfare and social ideas before Maggy Thatcher. It just takes a little time to get the tanker on a new course when the problem is acknowledged and don´t forget the problems with the re-unification. Otherwise Germany would have no problems at all.

France, of course, is another matter.

As for the EU breaking down under its own weight, the thing is simply to big and its members to different. An economic union without a political union, that is based on similarities, that are big enough (like with the states of America) will fail, i´m afraid. There are enough historical examples, where such unions of a single currency with different political ethnithies (right word?) failed.