143 or more killed in Baghdad and Karbala

[Joe]

link

BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 2 — Bombs and explosions ripped through Shiite Muslim religious ceremonies in Baghdad and the city of Karbala today, killing at least 143 people among the hundreds of thousands of pilgrims who had flocked to ancient shrines to pray on one of their holiest days. Streaks of blood and bits of flesh clung to the tiled walls and stone floors of the Imam Musa al-Khadam shrine in the Khadamiya district of Baghdad after two suicide bombers blew themselves up at its doors and a third detonated his bomb inside the shrine, according to witnesses and a militia guard at the shrine, Hussein Hamad.

As panicked pilgrims fled for an exit, a fourth suicide bomber blew himself up there, Mr. Hamad and other witnesses said.

"Hundreds of people were in the street, and it was a big mess," said one of the caretakers of the mosque, Saad Abdul-Zahara. "As soon as the explosion hit us everybody started running. The streets were full of bleeding women."

He added: "I saw the suicide bomber walk into the crowd, and then he blew himself up and just disappeared. It was terrifying. There was flesh flying, there were bodies flying."

He and other witnesses said grenades were thrown into the crowd from the windows of a nearby hotel. Witnesses also said that a man was dragged from a hotel across from the shrine and beaten by a mob.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, spokesman for the coalition forces, told a news conference here that the blasts killed at least 85 in Karbala and 58 at the Shiites' holiest Baghdad mosque.

Hospital officials said that a final death toll from the Khadamiya blast had been difficult to establish because many of the bodies were in pieces.

"I cannot count them," said a morgue attendant, Abdullah Hatam.

In the holy city of Karbala, about 50 miles south of Baghdad, at least five powerful blasts struck in the middle of crowds of pilgrims who had packed the streets and shrines for the Ashoura ceremony, when Shiite Muslims commemorate the martyrdom in 680 A.D. of Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad.

At the scene of one of the blasts in Karbala, a New York Times contract photographer, Joao Silva, saw at least four corpses being removed. Casualties were also loaded onto trucks and carted away from the area, which was near a mosque on a side street.

There was some damage to nearby buildings but no deep crater on the ground, like those left by the impact of car bombs. "People told us mortars had landed among a group of people walking to the shrine," Mr. Silva said.

In Khadamiya, among the body parts taken to the morgue were two severed heads, which in the past have been among the signs of a suicide bombing.

Corpses of women in black veils and the long robes worn by Shiites were laid out in the morgue. Outside, frantic Iraqis slapped their cheeks in grief and anger, searching the chaos for missing friends or relatives.

"Tell me about Hussein — is he okay?" one man asked, approaching the Iraqis trying to get inside the hospital. "No, he is dead," another replied.

American military helicopers circled overhead at the shrine and the hospital.

Iraqis waited for word of those still unaccounted for, some doubled over in grief as it filtered out. "He's gone, he's dead," said one. Rough-hewn wood coffins were loaded onto pickup trucks.

At one point a hospital official emerged and read a list of the names of the bodies that had been identified "Adnan Khurdaya, Mohammad Hussein . . ."

Men wailed, flailing their fists in the air.

"We are here to pay our condolences to the dead!" chanted a procession of men carrying the black flags associated with the mourning rituals of Ashoura as they marched to the hospital. "We defy you, America and Israel."

American troops in Humvees, machine guns mounted on top, were positioned at the hospital complex. As they drove through the gates, the crowd of Iraqis parted sullenly , letting them pass, but some shouted curses and threats.

Thousands of Iraqis packed the streets surrounding the Khadamiya shrine, beating their chests and chanting prayers to Imam Hussein. Some men with whips and knives flagellated themselves, part of the ritual of Ashoura which is meant to unite pilgrims in a re-enactment of Imam Hussein's suffering.

After the attack at the Khadamiya shrine, an angry crowd estimated in the thousands marched to a nearby American base where they started pelting soldiers and tanks with stones. A witness, Ali Heider, said the soldiers opened fire and he saw at least two Iraqis in the crowd shot.

It was not immediately clear who was behind the aparently coordinated series of attacks. Insurgents have launched car bombs and suicide attacks on the American occupying force and the Iraqis who work with them.

The American-led coalition authority is planning to hand back sovereignty to Iraqis, but it is not clear what shape the caretaker government would take once in place after June 30, nor is it clear how such a government would rule in a country faced with violence and growing religious and ethnic differences.

Shortly after the attack in Khadamiya, survivors gathered the shoes and sandals of victims. One distraught man clawed through the piles until he found the small pink sandals of a child. He held them up.

"Look at what they are doing to our children!" he said.

While the attacks on U.S. soldiers have gone down considerably - February has been the best month so far, with only 23 deaths as I recall - the attacks of civilians have become extremely vicious, this being one of the worse. Fuck.

[Joe]

Can a mod please add change the title to "143 or more killed in Baghdad and Karbala"?

[SyntaxVorlon]

Looks like the sunni are making this into a civil war.

[Master of Ossus]

This seems to be in-line with the Al Qaeda strategy within Iraq, which I still think is based around a logical fallacy. "Let's brutally attack their civilians, and when they respond it will prove how vicious THEY are." That strikes me as being ridiculous, although the fundamentalist Islamic mindset is one of the things about the Arab world I still don't understand.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I have a feeling Iraq is going to be one bitch of a nation to sort out.

[PeZook]

This seems to be in-line with the Al Qaeda strategy within Iraq, which I still think is based around a logical fallacy. "Let's brutally attack their civilians, and when they respond it will prove how vicious THEY are." That strikes me as being ridiculous, although the fundamentalist Islamic mindset is one of the things about the Arab world I still don't understand.

It's ridiculous, but it's working like a charm. Have you noticed how the protesters blamed Americans for the tragedy? US troops weren't involved in the slightest bit, and they still get attacked.

[Illuminatus Primus]

This seems to be in-line with the Al Qaeda strategy within Iraq, which I still think is based around a logical fallacy. "Let's brutally attack their civilians, and when they respond it will prove how vicious THEY are." That strikes me as being ridiculous, although the fundamentalist Islamic mindset is one of the things about the Arab world I still don't understand.

Hardly. Its an application of collaborator treatment in many occupied countries, except much much less contained. They attack the populace (and more importantly, the new police), as a warning for submission and cooperation against the Americans.

They don't even have the pretense for moral superiority anymore, just "cooperate to them and we'll kill you."

[Master of Ossus]

Hardly. Its an application of collaborator treatment in many occupied countries, except much much less contained.

It might be very similar to other actions, but read the captured documents and you'll see that they still feel they have moral superiority, and that their tactics there are not designed to deter the Shi'ites or anyone else from collaborating with the Americans. In fact, they WANT the Shi'ites to be working with the Americans and the British "invaders" so that they can go to the Sunnis and point out how evil the Shi'ites are.

They attack the populace (and more importantly, the new police), as a warning for submission and cooperation against the Americans.

They don't even have the pretense for moral superiority anymore, just "cooperate to them and we'll kill you."

Actually, they ARE still operating under the pretense of moral superiority. That's what document after document discusses. They're trying to get the Shi'ites to respond and launch retaliatory strikes so that Al Qaeda officials can point out how evil the Shi'ites "collaborators" truly are.

[phongn]

Part of the insurrection is to break the people's confidence in the government (in this case the occupying troops); they found it too dangerous to attack Americans (who instead of driving through an ambush will take it down), so they hit civilians.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, hopefully this will at least serve to put to rest the crazy notion that Iran and Al-Qaeda are working together.

[pellaeons_scion]

I read in that article that they believe they used mortars. Dont they take time to set up and calibrate? Couldnt coalition forces have found the attackers, or are mortars quick to assemble and disassemble?

Does anyone know if there was tension in Saddams Iraq between Sunni and Shi'ite? Or have we in removing the reasonably secular if insane Saddam just opened up a new hotbed of religious fanatisism?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I read in that article that they believe they used mortars. Dont they take time to set up and calibrate? Couldnt coalition forces have found the attackers, or are mortars quick to assemble and disassemble?

Does anyone know if there was tension in Saddams Iraq between Sunni and Shi'ite? Or have we in removing the reasonably secular if insane Saddam just opened up a new hotbed of religious fanatisism?

I've seen suicide bombers claimed in other articles; and I highly doubt it was mortars, due to the nature of the attacks and the area which had to be approached. A suicide belt is much easier to get into a crowd like that, than even a mortar on the approaches. Though based on the number of casualties I suppose a heavy mortar at range could account for the attacks--and at least one of the explosions seen, in Karbala, was quite tremendous.

[Master of Ossus]

Well, hopefully this will at least serve to put to rest the crazy notion that Iran and Al-Qaeda are working together.

Erm... yes they are.

According to the CIA's best estimates, Iran supplies Al Qaeda with almost ten percent of its weapons, and seven percent of its funding. This places Iran squarely in Al Qaeda's camp. Iran has also harbored former Al Qaeda members, including ones wanted in other countries for violent crimes.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Erm... yes they are.

According to the CIA's best estimates, Iran supplies Al Qaeda with almost ten percent of its weapons, and seven percent of its funding. This places Iran squarely in Al Qaeda's camp. Iran has also harbored former Al Qaeda members, including ones wanted in other countries for violent crimes.

Prove it. The Iranian fundamentalist regime is Shi'ite, and what you are claiming is that religious fanatics are supporting opposing religious fanatics who believe that they are apostate pigs and kill hundreds of their coreligionists at their most holy shrines. In addition to numerous other crimes perpetrated against the Shia by Sunni Islamist extremists. The Iranians hardly have clean hands, but claiming they are in any way related to al-Qaeda is ludicrous; al-Qaeda sees the Shia as part of the enemy, possibly the absolute worst part, and the Iranians regard Sunni in mostly the same way.

[Vympel]

While the attacks on U.S. soldiers have gone down considerably - February has been the best month so far, with only 23 deaths as I recall - the attacks of civilians have become extremely vicious, this being one of the worse. Fuck.

The attacks haven't gone down considerably, but their success has- for the moment. Just the other day a HMMWV got blown up by a hand grenade, 1 US soldier dead.

[Gil Hamilton]

Prove it. The Iranian fundamentalist regime is Shi'ite, and what you are claiming is that religious fanatics are supporting opposing religious fanatics who believe that they are apostate pigs and kill hundreds of their coreligionists at their most holy shrines. In addition to numerous other crimes perpetrated against the Shia by Sunni Islamist extremists. The Iranians hardly have clean hands, but claiming they are in any way related to al-Qaeda is ludicrous; al-Qaeda sees the Shia as part of the enemy, possibly the absolute worst part, and the Iranians regard Sunni in mostly the same way.

Weren't you one of the people who was perfectly willing to believe that Al-Qaeda and Saddam Huessin were in cohoots before when the Bush Administration made that insinuation, even though they hate each other with a passion?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Weren't you one of the people who was perfectly willing to believe that Al-Qaeda and Saddam Huessin were in cohoots before when the Bush Administration made that insinuation, even though they hate each other with a passion?

Yes, but it's an entirely different matter between socialists and Sunni extremists collaborating and Shia extremists and Sunni extremists collaborating. The religious mind most greatly hates schismatics before all other things.

[Gil Hamilton]

Yes, but it's an entirely different matter between socialists and Sunni extremists collaborating and Shia extremists and Sunni extremists collaborating. The religious mind most greatly hates schismatics before all other things.

When said Socialists and Sunni Extremists hate each other completely? I don't think so.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

When said Socialists and Sunni Extremists hate each other completely? I don't think so.

Socialism was viewed as discredited and defeated by the Sunni extremists as early as the late 1980s, early 1990s, in their publications. The days of Nasser suppressing religious activity were long gone even then; and the remnant regimes, Saddam's included, pander to religion to stay in power. Tactical alliance a decade after effectual victory is declared against the enemy still considered potent (capitalism) becomes much more plausible.

[Darth Wong]

Remember folks, Islam is a Religion of Peace.