Outcome of the Spanish elections-discussion.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-15 05:00am

I'm perplexed. One week ago, the polls were giving victory to the party in power, PP, although will far less votes than in the 2000 elections. Spain was about to give 4 more years to PP, adding to the last 8 years of absolute majorities. A time period that in my opinion is enough in a democracy. There have been many incidents caused by arrogance, that comes with an extended stay in power and a faith everything will be forgiven. In their favor, PP can claim the excellent state of spanish economy, and that pratically the only controversial decision was the support in Iraq's invasion, against the wishes of the population. Obviously, the economy state is not solely of their doing. Much work came from behind, from the PSOE former governments, and in a global capitalistic society there's only so much the government should do except not interfering as much as possible, anyway.

Considering all the above, the spanish were still voting for PP. And then, the attack came. With one precise objective, at least, of disrupting the electoral process. After the initial hours of crisis management, the government decided to show their arrogant side again. At the same time the spanish secret services were saying that there was a 99% probability of the attack not being of ETA doing, with all major non spanish media focusing on islamic groups, with ETA denying responsability, the government did an impression of Bagdad Bob, and also ordered their embassadors all over the world to insist on ETA and exclude other groups. Did the government think they could cheat the public opinion in an environment like this? It sounds like idiots disconnected from reality.

And Sunday, the people voted. And punished arrogance and deceit by giving victory to the other major party.

Thus, at least partially, Terrorism won. From now on, terrorists know that there is the possibility of disrupting any western electoral process by making a major attack a few days before election. It's brilliant, there is no way such an event can have no repercussions, by making people vote with their heart, not their head.

Now, it all depends of how the new PSOE government behaves. If it makes a strong stand against terrorism, if it doesn't retreat from Iraq, then Terrorism will have lost again. If the opposite happens, the terrorists have reached their goals.

So, all things considered, do you think the spaniards voted wisely? What would you have done, and why?

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-15 05:08am

Well I'd love to comment on the elections however your post is a little confusing. So to cut off any possible threads of conversation based on miscommunication, do you think you could re-write it?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-15 05:10am

BoredShirtless wrote:Well I'd love to comment on the elections however your post is a little confusing. So to cut off any possible threads of conversation based on miscommunication, do you think you could re-write it?

Arrgh. I have to work. Which parts do you find confusing?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-15 05:12am

I would have probably delayed elections a week, to allow a cooling-down period and for the facts to come out. If they had waited until next Sunday, even the government would have been saying Islamic terrorists.

Its saddening, really. AQ wanted to punish Spain for aiding the US and to scare the people into taking the PP out of power. Now the socialists have a majority and their first order of business is to get out of Iraq. From now on, Terrorists will always be able to say 'It worked in Madrid" when they want to leverage a political outcome. Steadfast resolution is the only way to combat terror.

It strikes me that in America there would have been the opposite effect, and that if 13 bombs went off in Chicago or DC on November 8, Bush would win an overwhelming majority. I really don't know what that says about the differences of national identity.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-15 05:12am

Colonel Olrik wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:Well I'd love to comment on the elections however your post is a little confusing. So to cut off any possible threads of conversation based on miscommunication, do you think you could re-write it?
Arrgh. I have to work. Which parts do you find confusing?

The second last paragraph. Quote:

Now, it all depends of how the new government behaves. If it makes a strong stand against terrorism, if it doesn't exit from Iraq (which future has since the invasion been linked to alqaeda's failure), then Terrorism will have lost again. If it does not, then we'll have a even happier bunch of terrorists..

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-15 05:17am

CaptainChewbacca wrote: It strikes me that in America there would have been the opposite effect, and that if 13 bombs went off in Chicago or DC on November 8, Bush would win an overwhelming majority. I really don't know what that says about the differences of national identity.

Even if he kept blaming Alqaeda while every indication pointed towards, let's say, the "Christian AmeriKA association" (just invented the group)?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-15 05:20am

CaptainChewbacca wrote: It strikes me that in America there would have been the opposite effect, and that if 13 bombs went off in Chicago or DC on November 8, Bush would win an overwhelming majority. I really don't know what that says about the differences of national identity.

The issue isn't bombs going off but bombs going off seemingly because of the PP policy of going to war over Iraq against the wishes of the Spanish population.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-15 05:21am

I see the elections in Spain less as a result of government error than the 97% of Spain who didn't want war being validated and outraged by the terror. In America, if you get kicked, you get up and kick back, but it seems in Spain that the people are giving up.

I don't know if something so similar could happen, given that there is no state television station, and the media is usually a step ahead of the government.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-15 05:23am

BoredShirtless wrote: The second last paragraph.

I think it's better now.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-15 05:31am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I see the elections in Spain less as a result of government error than the 97% of Spain who didn't want war being validated and outraged by the terror. In America, if you get kicked, you get up and kick back, but it seems in Spain that the people are giving up.

The Spanish have kicked back, they told the government they didn’t want into Iraq and the government ignored them, which led (in theory at least) to 200 Spanish citizens being killed. The Spanish electorate has kicked the PP out of power for putting the opinion of the US before the opinion of their own electorate, for putting the preservation of Spain’s position as a US "ally" before the preservation of Spanish lives and for trying to manipulate the situation when they realised their guilt. The people of Spain did kick back, it just wasn't in the manner most Americans would have liked (as is being displayed across the internet with the number of Neville Chamberlain comparisons skyrocketing).

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-15 05:32am

Its late, what did Neville Chamberlain do again?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-15 05:36am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Its late, what did Neville Chamberlain do again?

Whatever Hitler told him to.

He signed Czechoslovakia’s Germans away to Germany because he thought Hitler would be a good ally against the USSR, he proclaimed upon reaching the deal "Peace in our time" however as history records he was mistaken.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-15 05:37am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I see the elections in Spain less as a result of government error than the 97% of Spain who didn't want war being validated and outraged by the terror. In America, if you get kicked, you get up and kick back, but it seems in Spain that the people are giving up.

But can't you do both? Kick back and at the same time punish a government which have been arrogant and dishonest? Isn't that what democracy is about? The "get behind the glorious WAR leader" nationalistic thing that Bush tries to pull is anti democratic. The new PSOE government will be judged by its actions. I don't believe it will not persecute the responsibles for the attack.

I don't know if something so similar could happen, given that there is no state television station, and the media is usually a step ahead of the government.

That's what happened in Spain. Governnment saying one thing, media saying another. The only difference to international media was that they naturally gave more speech room to their government officials than other countries.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-15 05:40am

edit: Searching for the responsibles and pulling out of Iraq are two different things.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-15 05:41am

Colonel Olrik wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I see the elections in Spain less as a result of government error than the 97% of Spain who didn't want war being validated and outraged by the terror. In America, if you get kicked, you get up and kick back, but it seems in Spain that the people are giving up.
But can't you do both? Kick back and at the same time punish a government which have been arrogant and dishonest? Isn't that what democracy is about? The "get behind the glorious WAR leader" nationalistic thing that Bush tries to pull is anti democratic. The new PSOE government will be judged by its actions. I don't believe it will not persecute the responsibles for the attack.

Given that the socialist party's whole stance in this has been to distance itself from the war on terror, I doubt it will kick back very hard. I know it sounds very... distasteful of me to say this, but I think more people than just the immediate bombers should be held responsible for the attacks.

Barbaric, savage, I know, but that's how I feel.

It's how you get Capone...

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-15 05:44am

CaptainChewbacca wrote: It's how you get Capone...

We are going to capture Osama for tax evasion?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-15 05:54am

Spain to Withdraw from Iraq

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-03-15 05:54am

Bah, its too late in the day to explain movie lines. If no one else gets to it, I'll explain it to you tomorrow.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-15 05:58am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Bah, its too late in the day to explain movie lines. If no one else gets to it, I'll explain it to you tomorrow.

No I got it, from the Untouchables.

He puts one of yours in the hospital, you put one of his in the morgue etc.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-15 06:08am

TheDarkling wrote:Spain to Withdraw from Iraq

Oh shit, at least, they could shut the fuck up about it for the next few months. This is not a good sign.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-15 06:09am

Colonel Olrik wrote: Oh shit, at least, they could shut the fuck up about it for the next few months. This is not a good sign.

Hell of a time for politicians to start keeping their campaign promises no?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-03-15 06:15am

TheDarkling wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote: Oh shit, at least, they could shut the fuck up about it for the next few months. This is not a good sign.
Hell of a time for politicians to start keeping their campaign promises no?

They aren't even government yet, bleh, I think they should be a little more cautious. It's not like they already have a stable majority, or that the country's normal again. Besides, after the attack campaign promises mean little, since they didn't win because of them.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-15 06:20am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Given that the socialist party's whole stance in this has been to distance itself from the war on terror,

No, in his victory speech the new PM stated that he'll fight terrorists. But he'll still pull out of Iraq because like the majority of the worlds population, he can see there was no link between Al Qaeda and Iraq...until now. It's sort of funny in a way; the war in Iraq was needed to create the link the war was supposed to destroy. So for Spain, why build on Spains connection to the new post-war link between Al Qaeda and Iraq by staying? Let the Americans deal with their own mess is what they'd be thinking.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-03-15 06:25am

Colonel Olrik wrote: They aren't even government yet, bleh, I think they should be a little more cautious. It's not like they already have a stable majority, or that the country's normal again. Besides, after the attack campaign promises mean little, since they didn't win because of them.

They better keep to their campaign promises, I am relying upon them to compromise on the constitution (since Germany and Poland have already indicated they will).

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2004-03-15 08:24am

The news in Spain should be obviously good for Al Queda: Kill enough civilians and the target nation will reward you by doing what you want (pull its forces out of Iraq). Osama is likely smiling at his puppets. That doesn't seem to hold true for the United States and a select few others though.