Cops talk about getting new weapons for (cincy)

The Albino Raven · Post by **The Albino Raven** » 2004-03-22 09:05pm

As a result of the Jones death, the City Council voted in December to equip all police officers with stun guns as an alternative for subduing suspects.

About time police were issued weapons that subdue people better than a big fucking stick. You'd think more people would be bothered by unarmed people getting beaten to death, but hey, what do I know. I understand the guy was charging, but he was unarmed, and if we was as hyped up as they say he was, they wouldn't have needed to beat him to death.[/quote]

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2004-03-22 09:45pm

From the article:

The corner said Jones suffered from an enlarged heart, obesity and had intoxicating levels of cocaine, PCP and methanol in his blood.

The important part here is the perp had PCP in his bloodstream. For those not familiar with the effects of PCP, users can become delusional, violent, capable of superhuman strength and are nearly immune to pain. Further info can be found here.

The police officers had 2 choices, pull their guns and shoot him, or beat him down and cuff him which is what they did. Stunguns wouldn't have made a difference. Contrary to popular knowledge, stunguns don't work by shocking your nervous system and shutting down your muscle control. They work by causing you a shitload of pain which knocks the wind out of you and drops you to your knees. But if the guy's pissed or drugged up it's not going to work as well or at all, and you're back to shooting him or giving him the old fashioned beatdown with a blunt object.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-03-22 09:58pm

FYI, PCP doesn't create super human strength. Humans are actualy much stronger then they typicaly realize. The problem is pain receptors. You try and do something but at a certain point your body tells you to stop. If you don't feel pain or have trained yourself to ignore it, you can utilize far more of your potential strength. This is behind much of the phonemon of superhuman strength in adrenaline situations and PCP incidents.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-03-23 07:50am

that guy was clearly shown to lunge and attack a cop in the video. that is what stated the beating. during the beating he is seen trying to punch and tackle the cops trying to subdue him.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-03-23 08:01am

The Albino Raven wrote:About time police were issued weapons that subdue people better than a big fucking stick. You'd think more people would be bothered by unarmed people getting beaten to death, but hey, what do I know. I understand the guy was charging, but he was unarmed, and if we was as hyped up as they say he was, they wouldn't have needed to beat him to death.

What the fuck's your problem with sticks? They're an excellent and versatile weapon. You can use them to kill someone, beat someone, KO someone,disarm someone etc.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-03-23 11:00am

I happen to know a guy on another board who's an MD and has dealt extensively with people with mental problems like this guy had. His take on the incident was that because the police officers weren't trained to deal with this kind of thing, they made the absolute worst choice in their response. This guy said that he had had patients loads of times who, when surprised (e.g. after being suddenly woken up) reacted very violently, and if you tried to restrain them, just got worse, but if you backed off and left them alone they calmed down quickly and were easy to deal with.

Of course, that is the last thing a police officer is trained to do, so we got what happened, and it isn't really anybody's fault as such. Afaik the cops were called in because somebody was concerned for Jones's health and they woke him up to check, which triggered the situation. He should have been left to sleep and wake on his own, and that is a mistake the police officers can be blamed for to some extent.

I tried digging up that discussion from the HG (Heavengames) forum, but unfortunately there is no nifty search function like here, so it was hopeless. Sorry about that.

Edi

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-03-23 11:17am

aerius wrote:Further info can be found here.

A word of warning, that site advocates a book by L. Ron Hubbard as a "scientific breakthrough" on their page about Marijuana Detox. Note, I am not saying that their information on PCP is false, only that I would take anything from a site that calls a book by Hubbard a "scientific breakthrough" with a few metric tons of salt.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-03-23 11:19am

Blasted lack of edit function.

Found a page discussing Narconon and it's links to scientology, linky.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2004-03-23 02:37pm

Edi wrote:I happen to know a guy on another board who's an MD and has dealt extensively with people with mental problems like this guy had. His take on the incident was that because the police officers weren't trained to deal with this kind of thing, they made the absolute worst choice in their response. This guy said that he had had patients loads of times who, when surprised (e.g. after being suddenly woken up) reacted very violently, and if you tried to restrain them, just got worse, but if you backed off and left them alone they calmed down quickly and were easy to deal with.

Of course, that is the last thing a police officer is trained to do, so we got what happened, and it isn't really anybody's fault as such. Afaik the cops were called in because somebody was concerned for Jones's health and they woke him up to check, which triggered the situation. He should have been left to sleep and wake on his own, and that is a mistake the police officers can be blamed for to some extent.

How so? Did the police know he had those mental problems? For all they may've known, he was just a violent SOB, and acted accordingly.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-03-23 02:48pm

They'd probably be better off with a bean bag shot for the shotgun than a tazer or stun gun.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 04:19pm

Knife wrote:They'd probably be better off with a bean bag shot for the shotgun than a tazer or stun gun.

No way, those things are fucking dangerous. Stun guns you can use on pretty much anyone, whereas a beanbag gun could kill someone if you hit them in the upper chest.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-03-23 04:37pm

The Kernel wrote:
Knife wrote:They'd probably be better off with a bean bag shot for the shotgun than a tazer or stun gun.
No way, those things are fucking dangerous. Stun guns you can use on pretty much anyone, whereas a beanbag gun could kill someone if you hit them in the upper chest.

I didn't say you should give them to the cops like candy without training. Just that the effects of a stun gun on a target differ greatly depending on the target and the situation.

The saftey of the officers and quite frankly the liability of the city that the cops work for would be better served with the beanbag guns. Most non-lethal weapons can be lethal if used incorrectly but there are down sides to all options. Tis still better than beating the shit out of them with a nightstick or shooting them with your sidearm.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 04:50pm

Knife wrote: I didn't say you should give them to the cops like candy without training. Just that the effects of a stun gun on a target differ greatly depending on the target and the situation.

The saftey of the officers and quite frankly the liability of the city that the cops work for would be better served with the beanbag guns. Most non-lethal weapons can be lethal if used incorrectly but there are down sides to all options. Tis still better than beating the shit out of them with a nightstick or shooting them with your sidearm.

Hardly necessary though. I've seen those stun guns take down 300lbs. drunk Samoens before, and if you have a guy hopped up on PCP, the beanbag shot isn't going to be much better then the batton solution for which the cops are already trained. Plus, it would be hell for PR to try to justify using real guns (even with non-lethal ammo) regularly as a means of submission.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-03-23 05:09pm

The Kernel wrote:
Knife wrote: I didn't say you should give them to the cops like candy without training. Just that the effects of a stun gun on a target differ greatly depending on the target and the situation.

The saftey of the officers and quite frankly the liability of the city that the cops work for would be better served with the beanbag guns. Most non-lethal weapons can be lethal if used incorrectly but there are down sides to all options. Tis still better than beating the shit out of them with a nightstick or shooting them with your sidearm.
Hardly necessary though. I've seen those stun guns take down 300lbs. drunk Samoens before, and if you have a guy hopped up on PCP, the beanbag shot isn't going to be much better then the batton solution for which the cops are already trained. Plus, it would be hell for PR to try to justify using real guns (even with non-lethal ammo) regularly as a means of submission.

Like I said, down sides to all. But one shot or perhaps two from the beanbag gun looks better than half a dozen guys beating the shit out of him with nightsticks with the extra added bonus of being able to do it at range. Bigger range than the stun gun as well.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-03-23 06:00pm

There is a new non-lethal weapon that has been developed for use against unrulling subjects that works quite well. nets fired from 37mm or 40mm grenade launchers. These nets do a wonderful job of tangling up the subject and preventing them from doing anything. I think there might even be a 12 gauge version.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 06:27pm

Alyeska wrote:There is a new non-lethal weapon that has been developed for use against unrulling subjects that works quite well. nets fired from 37mm or 40mm grenade launchers. These nets do a wonderful job of tangling up the subject and preventing them from doing anything. I think there might even be a 12 gauge version.

Do you have a link for this?

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2004-03-23 06:45pm

Alyeska wrote:There is a new non-lethal weapon that has been developed for use against unrulling subjects that works quite well. nets fired from 37mm or 40mm grenade launchers. These nets do a wonderful job of tangling up the subject and preventing them from doing anything. I think there might even be a 12 gauge version.

You should also add that many models allow the operator to channel an electric current through the net, allowing to incapacitate the subject if he somehow is still able to resist after getting entangled.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-03-23 07:13pm

The Kernel wrote:
Alyeska wrote:There is a new non-lethal weapon that has been developed for use against unrulling subjects that works quite well. nets fired from 37mm or 40mm grenade launchers. These nets do a wonderful job of tangling up the subject and preventing them from doing anything. I think there might even be a 12 gauge version.
Do you have a link for this?

Sorry, it was part of a discovery channel special on weapons of the future.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-03-23 08:42pm

I saw that net thingummy in one show, it had parts about people building rafts to get to an island or how to make a good rope with your blankets during a fire... but they also showed some "gadget girl" shooting another guy from the show with it in a fake chase, and it was a pretty cool and effective toy.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-03-24 09:33am

Speaking from a former law enforcement person's point of view. The officer's did exactly the right thing. They responded with use of force levels within one of the offender. Offender=hand to hand cops=verbal OR stick. this guy was obviously pretty big, very strong, and very mad. I'm kind of tired of people railing on the cops everytime they have to do their fucking jobs. I have rather the same opinion to criminals who attack cops and end up dead as I do for people in california who get their third strike (And life in prison) on a shoplifting charge.

"WHAT PART OF NO DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?!"

Or Jim Carrey's leagal advice to a client in Liar, Liar:

"STOP BREAKIN' THE LAW, ASSHOLE!"

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Cops talk about getting new weapons for (cincy)

Cops talk about getting new weapons for (cincy)

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