I have a question about patriotism/nationalism

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-03-22 11:20pm

Is it possible to be a patriot even though you blatantly refuse to be labeled as one, and will point out the problems of your nation quicker than someone who is a patriot/nationalist of another country, as well as give multiple reasons why you should not be labeled a patriot? I'm really confused on this, because I'm being told that because I can point out a few of the good things of the US, and say that most people that are anti-americans are disregarding what they are taking for granted, I am a "patriot." Yes, I'm an American nationalist, but I hardly consider myself a "patriot."

(Sorry if this goes somewhere else, but I didn't know if it should go here, the HoS, or SLAM.)

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2004-03-22 11:43pm

verilon wrote:Is it possible to be a patriot even though you blatantly refuse to be labeled as one,

Yes you can. Patriotism is in act and thought, not labels

As for me, I'd define patriotism as wanting/working for the best interests of your country. I'd define nationalism as blind devotion to official policy.

...and will point out the problems of your nation quicker than someone who is a patriot/nationalist of another country, as well as give multiple reasons why you should not be labeled a patriot?

While I don't really know what reasons you have for not being considering yourself a patriot, pointing out flaws is patriotic. You can't fix the problems of your country without first figuring out what they are.

verilon wrote: I'm really confused on this, because I'm being told that because I can point out a few of the good things of the US, and say that most people that are anti-americans are disregarding what they are taking for granted, I am a "patriot."

Well I guess that that would go under my definition for patriotism. Parading the good parts for all to see trying to eliminate any other flaws.

verilon wrote:Yes, I'm an American nationalist, but I hardly consider myself a "patriot."

What's your definition of nationalist/patriot?

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-03-22 11:48pm

My definition of patriotism is one that I've always grown up with - someone who is willing to fight for their country to the death, and someone who wholeheartedly believes in their country.

I'll admit I'm a coward and would not want to fight for the US (and for selfish reasons...but I admit that - not saying I wouldn't, though, just that I wouldn't want to), but I don't believe that the US is as good as it could be, and I don't believe that it ever can be because of the systems taking too long and requiring too much debate and including too much personal bias to actually conclude a decision.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-22 11:54pm

Patriotism is simply love and devotion of one's country. Nationalism is that and a desire to promote the interests and culture of said nation, often to the exclusion of others; basically, patriotism with teeth.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-22 11:57pm

Patriotism is also something that you hear about most often when some jackass is accusing somebody else of not having enough of it.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2004-03-23 12:02am

I was taught that Patriotism is more rooted in royal countries, where the head of state was the state, as opposed to Nationalism, which is more pride in your country than your leader.

In that sense, I'm a nationalist, since I hate the crap out of G.W. Bush.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-03-23 12:52am

Xenophobe3691 wrote:I was taught that Patriotism is more rooted in royal countries, where the head of state was the state, as opposed to Nationalism, which is more pride in your country than your leader.

Funny. I was taught that patriotism is something inside you, ie the love and devotion you have for your country comes from inside and is genuine. I was taught that nationalism is the thing that starts wars, and is most often used and abused by those who claim to be patriotic.

I think patriotism is one of those words, like honour, that usually defy definition and are more often than not used and abused by those who have no real understanding of it's meaning. But I am curious where you were fed that bit about patriotism only being relevant to royalty. That sounds sus to me.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-03-23 01:27am

Patriotism: The USA is great
Nationalism: The USA is better than [insert country here]

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-03-23 02:04am

Howedar wrote:Patriotism: The USA is great
Nationalism: The USA is better than [insert country here]

Okay, if that is the case, then I've had my definitions backwards. Then again, while I feel that the US is a great place to live, it's not "great."

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-03-23 02:05am

I dunno, that's always how I've seen it.

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2004-03-23 02:52am

Yugoslavian writer Danilo Kîs (who I understand had more experience with nationalism than he'd have liked) wrote that "The nationalist is by definition an ignoramus ... Nationalism is the line of least resistance, the easy way. The nationalist is untroubled, he knows or thinks he knows what his values are, that's to say national, that's to say the values of the nations he belongs tom ethical and political; he is not interested in others, they are of no concern of his, hell - it's other people (other nations, another tribe). They don't even need investigating. The nationalist sees other people in his own image - as nationalists". (emphasis mine)

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2004-03-23 04:08am

Contrary to what Bill Clinton once said, it is most certainly possible to both love your country and despise its government.

A Patriot will love and cherish the ideals for which his or her country stands for and will if necessary fight for them even if it means questioning or opposing the government currently in power.

An example would be those who oppose the USA PATRIOT act. It's certainly patriotic in my eyes to question and oppose such an expansion of governmental powers.

A Nationalist is more jingoistic and unquestioning. The 'How dare you question the President during the War on TERRAR' types are one example.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-03-23 11:26am

the fact that someone may not like a government doesn't make them unpatriotic imo. after all, it's not the government that defines a country as much as the people living in the country. admittedly the government is a major influence, however.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2004-03-23 11:46am

I'd say that patriotism is dedication and desire to achieve the ideals of your state, whereas nationalism is dedication and devotion to the current incarnation of the state regardless of whether it is upholding the ideals of itself.

For instance from some points of view those who oppose the current american administration can still be extremely patriotic, believing that the compromises of the bill of rights/the ideals of american freedom by the current government violate what true patriotism is in the name of nationalism and jingoism.

Of course someone who supports the current government would call such people unpatriotic, perhaps even traitors depending on how much blind faith they have in whoever is in charge of their government.

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-03-24 04:46am

...I am now greatly confused...

_ _;;

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2004-03-24 05:01am

Become unconfused by looking up the definitions, and figuring out which best describes you:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriot
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nationalist

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2004-03-24 10:15am

Glocksman wrote:A Nationalist is more jingoistic and unquestioning. The 'How dare you question the President during the War on TERRAR' types are one example.

Then how does this explain why some Neo-Nazis define themselves as nationalists while opposing the governments they live under?

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2004-03-24 10:22am

For me, it's broke down like this:

"America, the Beautiful" -- Patriotic.

"America, Love it or Leave It" -- Nationalist.

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-03-24 11:06am

BoredShirtless wrote:Become unconfused by looking up the definitions, and figuring out which best describes you:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriot

One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.
One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests.
one who loves and defends his or her country [syn: nationalist]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nationalist

Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.
One who advocates national unity and independence
adj : devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation including promoting the interests of one country over those of others

So I fit a few of those, but not all of them, or not to the fullest extent. And this is why I am confused.

The whole reason I brought it up is because a jingoistic Canadian (...in respects to military, social and economic systems, and even to the point of "Saudi Arabia is basing their constitution on ours" type of person...) was telling me I am a "blind" patriot BECAUSE it's "instilled" into us Americans. Granted, I am somewhat patriotic, but cannot convince this person that I am not a blind patriot. That, and I wouldn't defend the US to my death. Not because it's not worth it, mind you, but because I have my reservations on it. I don't believe it's right to have wars, but I'm not a peacenik.. grr.. -head explodes-

Cornelius · Post by **Cornelius** » 2004-03-24 05:49pm

Patriotism: The USA is great
Nationalism: The USA is better than [insert country here]

That is far from what Nationalism is. Nationalism can LEAD to that, but it is not. Extremes are bad, not the concept and its corruption.

Nationalism is a political ideology of community of the nation and adherence to political power through a head of state that is not a monarch or aristocracy. It serves to unite a group of people under a common banner and nationality, not war and ethnocentricim.

Here is the REAL definition of Nationalism.

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation. (no where does this say my nation is better than your nation--that is ethnocentricism. )

2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
(this stresses the power of the nation as a single unit, a collective unit of a people under that common banner.)

Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination. (Here, nationalism is a force which unites oppressed people and helps them forcus on something of their own--their own nation)

Nationalism has nothing at all to do with my nation is better than your nation. What you speak of is radical "or what you might call fundie nationalism aka Jingoism.

1Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.

There is a reason why Jingoism has not the same definition as Nationalism

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I have a question about patriotism/nationalism

I have a question about patriotism/nationalism

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