The Kernel on Cuba and Castro

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 01:22am

Joe wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly. In any case, the US could exert enough influence so that foreign companies would be leaving wholesale, and trade sanctions against Israeli exports would completely destroy their economy.
Why would the U.S. want to do such a thing? We don't have anything in particular to gain by screwing over Israel in addition to withdrawing our support of them. We certainly don't have the same security goals as her enemies, probably never will.

No we don't, but like I said, I think the threat will be sufficient. If it isn't, I certainly would have a clear conscience walking away from such an openly fanatical regime until they clean up their act.

Hell, we still have a trade embargo against Cuba and their government is FAR less fanatical and militant as Israel's.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-23 01:30am

Moral equivalence between Castro's Cuba and Israel, now? Did an Israeli piss in your cornflakes or something?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-23 01:33am

The Kernel wrote:Hell, we still have a trade embargo against Cuba and their government is FAR less fanatical and militant as Israel's.

You gotta be shitting me. The current US trade embargo against Cuba has practically nothing to do with Cuba's fanaticism or militancy. This is a false analogy fallacy.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 01:33am

Joe wrote:Moral equivalence between Castro's Cuba and Israel, now? Did an Israeli piss in your cornflakes or something?

Please, I'm actually half-Jewish. And if you have a problem with the comparison, by all means tell me why. What does Castro do that is worse then what Israel does to its own citizens?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 01:34am

Master of Ossus wrote:
The Kernel wrote:Hell, we still have a trade embargo against Cuba and their government is FAR less fanatical and militant as Israel's.
You gotta be shitting me. The current US trade embargo against Cuba has practically nothing to do with Cuba's fanaticism or militancy. This is a false analogy fallacy.

No it doesn't, but the question put to me was why the US would want to levy a trade embargo against Israel and I submitted that we have done so and KEPT it so against Cuba for far less serious matters.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-23 01:35am

The Kernel wrote:Please, I'm actually half-Jewish. And if you have a problem with the comparison, by all means tell me why. What does Castro do that is worse then what Israel does to its own citizens?

For one thing, he's running a communist country in which the election system is a joke and therefore citizens have no real ability to alter the government through participation in politics.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 01:38am

Master of Ossus wrote:
The Kernel wrote:Please, I'm actually half-Jewish. And if you have a problem with the comparison, by all means tell me why. What does Castro do that is worse then what Israel does to its own citizens?
For one thing, he's running a communist country in which the election system is a joke and therefore citizens have no real ability to alter the government through participation in politics.

Much like the voting status in the Occupied Regions for Palestinians wouldn't you say? But I really don't think we should go into THAT aspect of this too heavily with the taboo on the Israel vs. Palestine conflict.

In any case, I'm sorry but I don't see Castro's autocracy as being as worthy of economic sanctions next to Israel.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-23 01:46am

The Kernel wrote:
Joe wrote:Moral equivalence between Castro's Cuba and Israel, now? Did an Israeli piss in your cornflakes or something?
Please, I'm actually half-Jewish. And if you have a problem with the comparison, by all means tell me why. What does Castro do that is worse then what Israel does to its own citizens?

Are you fucking kidding me? A level of repression that makes Nazi Germany look like a pillar of free expression in comparison? "Colonies" built to contain people with HIV? People who are willing to brave the ocean in fucking Buicks (I am not kidding, BTW) to get out of there? The most paranoid dictator in the Western hemisphere?

No, you're probably right, Israel is a lot worse.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-03-23 01:54am

The Kernel wrote:
Joe wrote:Moral equivalence between Castro's Cuba and Israel, now? Did an Israeli piss in your cornflakes or something?
Please, I'm actually half-Jewish. And if you have a problem with the comparison, by all means tell me why. What does Castro do that is worse then what Israel does to its own citizens?

How does your ethnic background imbue your comments with any truth?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 02:01am

Joe wrote: Are you fucking kidding me? A level of repression that makes Nazi Germany look like a pillar of free expression in comparison? "Colonies" built to contain people with HIV? People who are willing to brave the ocean in fucking Buicks (I am not kidding, BTW) to get out of there? The most paranoid dictator in the Western hemisphere?

No, you're probably right, Israel is a lot worse.

Castro has every right to be paranoid given the number of times the US has tried to have him killed. If I was on the recieving end of the "Bay of Pigs", I'd be paranoid too.

And please, let's not hear about the Buicks coming to America thing. I've been to Cuba and while there are those who have a shitty life, the vast majority of the population seems reasonably content with the Castro regime.

As for the rest, how is it any worse then launching airstrikes at your own citizens (who incidentally are not given the right to vote either)? Or blatent racism? Israel is far more dangerous to both their own citizens and their neighbors then Cuba is.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-03-23 02:02am

Howedar wrote: How does your ethnic background imbue your comments with any truth?

Was a response to this:

Did an Israeli piss in your cornflakes or something?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 02:03am

Howedar wrote:How does your ethnic background imbue your comments with any truth?

Joe asked me if I had a hard on for Israelies, which I certainly don't since a significant portion of my family are from there. I was shooting down accusations of prejudice, not trying to strengthen my argument (Jesus, did you READ what I wrote?).

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-03-23 02:05am

Yes, I read what you wrote. And frankly whether you have Jewish family has nothing to do with whether or not you have an axe to grind with Israel.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 02:16am

Howedar wrote:Yes, I read what you wrote. And frankly whether you have Jewish family has nothing to do with whether or not you have an axe to grind with Israel.

I DO have an axe to grind with Israel, but it's not on the basis of prejudice, which is what my comment was designed to make clear. The reason for my feelings towards Israel are based partly on my feelings towards fundementalist regimes, partly on my beliefs for human rights and Democracy and also because I am a patriot and it saddens me that my country could support such a regime.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-03-23 02:25am

Howedar wrote:Yes, I read what you wrote. And frankly whether you have Jewish family has nothing to do with whether or not you have an axe to grind with Israel.

But it *does* have a bearing on whether he has an axe to grind on Israelis, which is what he was asked originally.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-03-23 02:26am

Howedar wrote:Yes, I read what you wrote. And frankly whether you have Jewish family has nothing to do with whether or not you have an axe to grind with Israel.

Joe's comment could have been constriduded as sly way of saying Anti-Semite, I believe that Kernel was just stopping that line of thought by telling us his background.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-23 02:34am

Castro has every right to be paranoid given the number of times the US has tried to have him killed. If I was on the recieving end of the "Bay of Pigs", I'd be paranoid too.

He may be a son of a bitch, but he's your son of a bitch, eh?

And please, let's not hear about the Buicks coming to America thing. I've been to Cuba and while there are those who have a shitty life, the vast majority of the population seems reasonably content with the Castro regime.

Your personal experience is not a valid basis for generalizing about the vast majority of the population.

As for the rest, how is it any worse then launching airstrikes at your own citizens (who incidentally are not given the right to vote either)?

What the hell are you talking about? Palestinians in the occupied territories are not Israeli citizens!

Or blatent racism?

Israeli does have discriminatory immigration policies, but the Arabs (who don't want any part of the PLO's insanity, BTW) that didn't cut and run and/or try to throw the Jews into the sea after partition are still there and they even have seats in Parliament. And I just don't see how any nation-state that cares about its citizens even a little bit can be expected to resettle an overwhelmingly hostile minority like the Palestinians in the occupied territories.

Israel is far more dangerous to both their own citizens and their neighbors then Cuba is.

No, to its own citizens, it's not a danger. To its enemies, sure, but I'm certainly not going to cry any tears if the Ba'athist thugs in Syria feel threatened by a bunch of Jews with guns.

And with that, I'm going to withdraw from this part of the conversation NOW, because this is well into forbidden territory. You can have the last word if you want, and I won't reply.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-03-23 02:36am

Crown wrote:
Howedar wrote:Yes, I read what you wrote. And frankly whether you have Jewish family has nothing to do with whether or not you have an axe to grind with Israel.
Joe's comment could have been constriduded as sly way of saying Anti-Semite, I believe that Kernel was just stopping that line of thought by telling us his background.

Come on, if I wanted to call someone an anti-Semite I'd come right out and fucking say it.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-03-23 02:39am

Joe wrote:
Crown wrote:Joe's comment could have been constriduded as sly way of saying Anti-Semite, I believe that Kernel was just stopping that line of thought by telling us his background.
Come on, if I wanted to call someone an anti-Semite I'd come right out and fucking say it.

Oh for fuck's sake can you learn how to fucking read? I said your comments could have been interpreted in that manner, hence the respose.

Jesus H Christ.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 02:43am

Joe wrote: He may be a son of a bitch, but he's your son of a bitch, eh?

Excuse me, but I have no idea what you are trying to say. He's paranoid because he had several attempts made on his life by foreign governments. It's a simple fact.

Your personal experience is not a valid basis for generalizing about the vast majority of the population.

No it isn't, but by your logic Mexico must be a downright evil regime since so many of its citizens come to America illegally. Hey, Cuba may have lower standards of living then us and some of its citizens may come here looking for a better life. This is NOT an isolated condition.

What the hell are you talking about? Palestinians in the occupied territories are not Israeli citizens!

What exactly would you call them then? They are in Israeli occupied territory which makes them defacto citizens.

Israeli does have discriminatory immigration policies, but the Arabs (who don't want any part of the PLO's insanity, BTW) that didn't cut and run and/or try to throw the Jews into the sea after partition are still there and they even have seats in Parliament. And I just don't see how any nation-state that cares about its citizens even a little bit can be expected to resettle an overwhelmingly hostile minority like the Palestinians in the occupied territories.

Let's NOT argue this point, I think it would drag us further into forbidden terriroty.

No, to its own citizens, it's not a danger. To its enemies, sure, but I'm certainly not going to cry any tears if the Ba'athist thugs in Syria feel threatened by a bunch of Jews with guns.

I guess it all depends on how you view the Palastinians then. To me, they are citizens because they are in Israeli occupied land without an independent government.

And with that, I'm going to withdraw from this part of the conversation NOW, because this is well into forbidden territory. You can have the last word if you want, and I won't reply.

I'm satisfied with the ground we've covered thusfar and I'm willing to leave it at that.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-23 02:45am

Joe wrote: Come on, if I wanted to call someone an anti-Semite I'd come right out and fucking say it.

I didn't think you were trying to, I just wanted to make my position clear.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-03-23 11:27am

The Kernel wrote:Castro has every right to be paranoid given the number of times the US has tried to have him killed.

Talk about apologism. "Sure, he's insane. But it's our fault he's insane." Moreover, when was the LAST time anyone made a serious attempt to kill him?

If I was on the recieving end of the "Bay of Pigs", I'd be paranoid too.

You gotta be shitting me. The US was on the receiving end of Pearl Harbor, and last time I checked sane Americans weren't busy safeguarding their homes from the Japanese.

And please, let's not hear about the Buicks coming to America thing. I've been to Cuba and while there are those who have a shitty life, the vast majority of the population seems reasonably content with the Castro regime.

1. "If we ignore everyone who's upset, we're only left with people who are happy."
2. So, if everyone's happy with him, how come they don't hold a free election?
3. Strangely enough, I keep hearing from leftists in the government how much US sanctions are hurting Cuban (or North Korean, Iranian, etc. etc.) people. Are you saying this isn't true? After all, only a very few people in Cuba live shitty lives, according to you.
4. Name the last Israeli who fled Israel by attempting to float a Buick.

As for the rest, how is it any worse then launching airstrikes at your own citizens (who incidentally are not given the right to vote either)? Or blatent racism? Israel is far more dangerous to both their own citizens and their neighbors then Cuba is.

You have yet to answer my criticism that treatment of its citizens is NOT the central reason behind the US trade embargo with Cuba, and so this whole thing is a false analogy fallacy.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-03-23 12:15pm

so Kernel, not to fly further with the thread hijack, but lets revies the countries currently banning cuban goods:

1. The United States

very well. Do you think it's safe to say that a country with an effective system of government and competant leaders could build a stable prosperous nation in 50 years? Not to mention the fact that Cuba posseses incredible natural beauty and a tropical climate. How come there aren't hoardes of wealthy Europeans, Canadians, Australians and Asians flocking to Cuba for vacation like the rest of the Carribean??

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-23 12:39pm

Not to humour this irritating "Cuba" off-topic thread tangent which the Israel apologists have gleefully seized upon, but:

Col. Crackpot wrote:How come there aren't hoardes of wealthy Europeans, Canadians, Australians and Asians flocking to Cuba for vacation like the rest of the Carribean??

Do Americans not take vacations in Cuba? I know several people around here who have taken vacations in Cuba. They have resorts etc.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2004-03-23 12:42pm

I have taken a vacation on cuba myself, and many other europeans too afaik.