Nick Berg was detained without charges, lawyer

[Hamel]

If he had not been detained, none of this would have happened

Pa. family angry with American government over son's brutal death

By JASON STRAZIUSO
The Associated Press
5/11/2004, 2:34 p.m. ET

WEST CHESTER, Pa. (AP) — The family of an American civilian shown beheaded on an Islamic militant Web site huddled in in tears Tuesday after learning of the existence of the graphic videotape.


The video showed Nick Berg, 26, in a staged execution carried out by an al-Qaida affiliated group. The video said the killing was to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Suzanne," the man said on the video before being killed. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sara. I live in ... Philadelphia."

Berg's family said U.S. State Department officials on Monday had told them Berg was decapitated. The family, though, had wanted that information to remain private.

When told about news of the Web site Nick Berg's father, brother and sister, collapsed to the ground in a tearful hug in their front yard.

"I knew he was decapitated before," said the father, Michael Berg. "That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public."

Michael Berg lashed out at the U.S. military and Bush administration, saying his son might still be alive had he not been detained by U.S. officials in Iraq without being charged and without access to a lawyer.

Nick Berg, a small telecommunications business owner, spoke to his parents on March 24 and told them he would return home on March 30. But Berg was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24. He was turned over to U.S. officials and detained for 13 days.

His father, Michael, said his son wasn't allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer.

FBI agents visited Berg's parents in West Chester on March 31 and told the family they were trying to confirm their son's identity. On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was released. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated.

Michael Berg said he blamed the U.S. government for creating circumstances that led to his son's death. He said if his son hadn't been detained for so long, he might have been able to leave the country before the violence worsened.

"I think a lot of people are fed up with the lack of civil rights this thing has caused," he said. "I don't think this administration is committed to democracy."

The Bergs last heard from their son April 9, when he said he would come home by way of Jordan.

Berg had traveled several times to Third World countries to help spread technology, his family said. He had previously traveled to Kenya and Ghana, where they said he had purchased a $900 brick-making press for a poor village, the family said.

Berg's mother, Suzanne Berg, said her son was in Iraq to help rebuild communication antennas.

"He had this idea that he could help rebuild the infrastructure," she said.

Michael Berg described himself as fervently anti-war, but said his son disagreed with him.

"He was a Bush supporter," Berg said. "He looked at it as bringing democracy to a country that didn't have it."

Suzanne Berg said she was told her son's body would be transported to Kuwait and then to Dover, Del. She said the family had been trying for weeks to learn where their son was but that federal officials had not been helpful.

"I went through this with them for weeks," she said. "I basically ended up doing most of the investigating myself."

[Trytostaydead]

Someone gave me a link to the video. I feel significantly dirty and the closest I've ever been to feeling racial hatred and need for racial violence. This was far worse than that one with the Russian getting killed. It's grainer, but far awful. Especially with those shits chanting Allah Ackbar as they did it. Why would they praise God's name as they did something like that. Why would God feel praised?

I hope, Allah Ackbar, that those shits are caught and dispatched in a most horrible manner. Well, that's what I hope. Unfortunately that's not justice and it makes us just like him..

But still.. dammit.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Someone gave me a link to the video. I feel significantly dirty and the closest I've ever been to feeling racial hatred and need for racial violence. This was far worse than that one with the Russian getting killed. It's grainer, but far awful. Especially with those shits chanting Allah Ackbar as they did it. Why would they praise God's name as they did something like that. Why would God feel praised?

I hope, Allah Ackbar, that those shits are caught and dispatched in a most horrible manner. Well, that's what I hope. Unfortunately that's not justice and it makes us just like him..

But still.. dammit.

Catching these people dealing with them in what ever means does not make us like them. If we were to catch them and then execute them on on videotape then have CNN play it....well then we'd be like them. I personally do not want them captured, I say we put these kind of people down like animals.

[Durandal]

Someone gave me a link to the video. I feel significantly dirty and the closest I've ever been to feeling racial hatred and need for racial violence. This was far worse than that one with the Russian getting killed. It's grainer, but far awful. Especially with those shits chanting Allah Ackbar as they did it. Why would they praise God's name as they did something like that. Why would God feel praised?

Because it makes Allah happy, according to the Qu'ran.

But remember, Islam is a religion of peace ... mmkay?

[GySgt. Hartman]

But remember, Islam is a religion of peace ... mmkay?

Yes, just like Christianity.
There's always at leas two ways to interpret any religious scripture.

[Durandal]

But remember, Islam is a religion of peace ... mmkay?

Yes, just like Christianity.
There's always at leas two ways to interpret any religious scripture.

Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil.

Please explain how the preceding passage can be interpreted in some way other than "fighting holy wars is a good thing".

The Qur'an states explicitly, multiple times, that disbelievers (including Christians and Jews) will suffer horribly in the afterlife. Please explain how this can be interpreted as something other than hatred and intolerance.

[Exmoor Cat]

If 've got my Qu'ranic law straight (from a few years back), whilst sacrifice of animals is permitted in Islamic ritual, human sacrifice isn't, therefore by killing Mr Berg in a sacrificial manner, they've in fact condemned their souls to hell forever. Maybe some bod should pass that on to the Arab press and tell em to smoke it.

[Durandal]

If 've got my Qu'ranic law straight (from a few years back), whilst sacrifice of animals is permitted in Islamic ritual, human sacrifice isn't, therefore by killing Mr Berg in a sacrificial manner, they've in fact condemned their souls to hell forever. Maybe some bod should pass that on to the Arab press and tell em to smoke it.

Who said they were performing a ritual? They were getting revenge by killing an un-believer, which is something they are not only allowed to do by their religion, but encouraged to do.

[Exmoor Cat]

yes, but that does not conflict with my proposition. The whole thing is staged and ritualistic. By the way, Christians and Jews are not unbelivers, but children of the book. The unbelievers are those who are pagan, animist and polytheistic.

[Durandal]

yes, but that does not conflict with my proposition. The whole thing is staged and ritualistic. By the way, Christians and Jews are not unbelivers, but children of the book. The unbelievers are those who are pagan, animist and polytheistic.

On the day when He will call unto them and say: Where are My partners whom ye imagined ?
...
Cry unto your (so-called) partners (of Allah). And they will cry unto them, and they will give no answer unto them, and they will see the Doom. Ah, if they had but been guided!

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

[sketerpot]

Please explain how the preceding passage can be interpreted in some way other than "fighting holy wars is a good thing".

Simple. I don't know that much about Islam, but I know what most Christians around here would do: ignore it! How many Christians, even Biblical literalists, actually pay attention to the parts of the Bible they don't happen to agree with? I suspect it's pretty similar among the "religion of peace" people: ignore anything you don't agree with and then say that your holy book supports your views.

How you can derive any authority from selective quotation of Holy Books is beyond me, but look at all the people quoting Leviticus saying that homosexuality is an abomination while ignoring the other stuff in there (like the usual Letter to Dr. Laura material and the extremely liberal use of the death penalty). It can happen, and multiple interpretations don't have to both be plausible. If they did, it would cut out a large fraction of them.

[Exmoor Cat]

Durandel, even those quotes show nothing relevant to my point either in favour or against.

[Durandal]

Simple. I don't know that much about Islam, but I know what most Christians around here would do: ignore it! How many Christians, even Biblical literalists, actually pay attention to the parts of the Bible they don't happen to agree with? I suspect it's pretty similar among the "religion of peace" people: ignore anything you don't agree with and then say that your holy book supports your views.

Of course, and that's circular logic willfully ignoring evidence to the contrary. "Islam is a religion of peace. Any verses in the Qur'an which disagree with this conclusion should be ignored, therefore Islam is a religion of peace." Basically, bury your head in the sand and just keep shouting "RELIGION OF PEACE!!!" over and over.

How you can derive any authority from selective quotation of Holy Books is beyond me, but look at all the people quoting Leviticus saying that homosexuality is an abomination while ignoring the other stuff in there (like the usual Letter to Dr. Laura material and the extremely liberal use of the death penalty). It can happen, and multiple interpretations don't have to both be plausible. If they did, it would cut out a large fraction of them.

Willfully ignoring the fact that certain passages exist is not "interpretation." It is ignoring the fact that those passages exist. The fact that you're even suggesting that arguing over the meaning of text and refusing to even acknowledge the existence of that text are equivalent only goes to show that the Qur'an does contain violent passages that can't be interpreted in a non-hateful way. So instead, people just ignore them, and then proclaim Islam as a "religion of peace," which is frankly one of the biggest lies being perpetrated in the modern world.

I am perfectly fine with Muslims ignoring the parts of the Qur'an that are more cruel and offensive, and thus tempering their religion with modern, secular values. But I have a problem when those same Muslims run around saying that the fundamentalists are wrong for not ignoring those passages.

Durandel, even those quotes show nothing relevant to my point either in favour or against.

You must have missed the reference to the Catholic belief in the Trinity, and that part about how any who embrace the idea are disbelievers. Please work on your reading comprehension.

[Exmoor Cat]

Durandal, I therefore suggest that you brush up on the ongoing debate over the trinity, of which there is plenty written on in the ishtahad of the various Islamic schools of law. It is still a debate within the Islamic schools of thought, as well as the Christian faith as to whether or not the trinity is a single entitiy or three separate entities.

From my readings of the Qu'ran, this also depends on the version of the qu'ran you are reading. IIRC the Wahabni version has already concluded on this, but the Shia and some of the Egyptian ones have not. I am in them ideel of exams at the minute so cannot quote chapter and verse in reply, as those notes and books are in the loft from last years courses.

[GySgt. Hartman]

I am perfectly fine with Muslims ignoring the parts of the Qur'an that are more cruel and offensive, and thus tempering their religion with modern, secular values. But I have a problem when those same Muslims run around saying that the fundamentalists are wrong for not ignoring those passages.

That is exactly what christian moderates are doing today: Ignoring large parts of the OT and telling the fundies they are wrong not to ignore them.
And just like modern christians are saying that Jesus' example overrides the OT, muslims have anecdotal eidence from Muhammed's life that they say overrides parts of the Qu'ran.

[Durandal]

Durandal, I therefore suggest that you brush up on the ongoing debate over the trinity, of which there is plenty written on in the ishtahad of the various Islamic schools of law. It is still a debate within the Islamic schools of thought, as well as the Christian faith as to whether or not the trinity is a single entitiy or three separate entities.

Who cares? The book specifically references the trinity and those who believe in it as people who will go to Hell. It's a debate that will never be resolved because there's no way to test any conclusions for accuracy. So my face value interpretation is the most straightforward one. Please explain why I should deviate from it.

From my readings of the Qu'ran, this also depends on the version of the qu'ran you are reading. IIRC the Wahabni version has already concluded on this, but the Shia and some of the Egyptian ones have not. I am in them ideel of exams at the minute so cannot quote chapter and verse in reply, as those notes and books are in the loft from last years courses.

The same can be said of the Bible. There are tons of different versions floating around, but most of them agree on the key points, with there only being minor differences.

That is exactly what christian moderates are doing today: Ignoring large parts of the OT and telling the fundies they are wrong not to ignore them.
And just like modern christians are saying that Jesus' example overrides the OT, muslims have anecdotal eidence from Muhammed's life that they say overrides parts of the Qu'ran.

Let me get this straight. Muhammad wrote some stuff down in a book. He then went on to completely reverse the position he had in his writings through his actions ... and didn't think to, oh, I dunno, change the damn book? Just how holy is the damn thing? Wasn't Mohammed supposed to have received it directly from Allah? Humans are fallible, remember? If Mohammed did something which contradicted what he wrote in the Qur'an (which came directly from Allah), then Mohammed is in the wrong, according to the Islamic faith.

At least Christians have the excuse that Jesus came along well after the Old Testament was written.

[Exmoor Cat]

There are several Islamic scholars who have accepted the position on the trinity, and the Qu'ran specifically states christians as Children of the book, especially where it comes to the legal bits regarding such populations within muslim lands.

You should also take into account that the Qu'ran itself is internally inconsistent, due to the length of time it took to write (16-32 years, depending on the scholar commenting), something muslims just HATE when you mention it....

[Durandal]

There are several Islamic scholars who have accepted the position on the trinity, and the Qu'ran specifically states christians as Children of the book, especially where it comes to the legal bits regarding such populations within muslim lands.

It also specifically states that they're going to burn in Hell and that the trinity is a lie.

You should also take into account that the Qu'ran itself is internally inconsistent, due to the length of time it took to write (16-32 years, depending on the scholar commenting), something muslims just HATE when you mention it....

Of course. The first two books of the Old Testament are actually part of the Muslim canon, but nothing else from the Bible because the rest of it was supposedly marred by translational errors. But the Qur'an itself can't keep its story straight, so people have to choose which parts they like and which they don't. The problem is that it's a religion, and there's no way to verify who's right or wrong. So the moderates have no business saying that the fundamentalists are "perverting" Islam.

Since the Qur'an is internally inconsistent, there is no "true Islam." There are just different sects of followers who embrace different teachings.

[Exmoor Cat]

I think that just about sums up the debate.

[Aaron]

The US claims that Berg was never in coalition custody

BAGHDAD - Coalition officials in Iraq said on Wednesday a U.S. man whose decapitation was shown on an al-Qaeda linked website was never in coalition custody, despite his family's claims to the contrary.

Coalition spokesperson Dan Senor said Nick Berg had been arrested by Iraqi police in Mosul on March 24, and that FBI agents had visited him three times.

"He was at no time under the jurisdiction or detention of coalition forces," Senor said.

CNN reported on Wednesday that Berg's family has e-mails in which the 26-year-old said he had been turned over to coalition forces, who held him for 13 days.

The Bergs filed a lawsuit on April 5, saying their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. Berg was released on April 6.

Berg told his parents he would try to get out of Iraq as quickly as possible. They last heard from him on April 9.

Michael Berg said on Tuesday his son would still be alive had he been set free earlier. Berg had told his parents he intended to leave Iraq at the end of March.

A video posted on an al-Qaeda-linked website shows Berg, a communications worker from Pennsylvania, being decapitated while five hooded men shout "God is great" in Arabic.

Coalition officials say they are unsure what Berg was doing in Iraq. He was not affiliated with the U.S. government nor was he apparently connected to any contractors working in Iraq.

Brig.-Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the U.S. military "liaised" with the Iraqi police to make sure he was treated properly because "he was still an American citizen."

Senor told reporters that several U.S. agencies would investigate the case, with the FBI in charge. "We are obviously trying to piece all this together, and there's a thorough investigation," he said.

Well it's time for the "cover your ass" syndrome to take effect. The coalition is pointing the finger at the Mosul police, perhaps to take the heat off of them.

[Durandal]

The men on the tape also claimed that their offers to exchange Berg for Iraqi captives were rejected, which they're of course denying.

[Aaron]

The men on the tape also claimed that their offers to exchange Berg for Iraqi captives were rejected, which they're of course denying.

I have mixed feelings on this matter. On one hand the coalition could have released these men, thereby saving Berg's life (provided the rebels kept up their end). And on the other hand I beleive that you shouldn't negotiate with terrorists, only kill them. I guess the bottom line is that the coalition had the power to save this mans life and they dropped the ball, kind of like what they've done with Iraq as a whole.

[GySgt. Hartman]

I have mixed feelings on this matter. On one hand the coalition could have released these men, thereby saving Berg's life (provided the rebels kept up their end). And on the other hand I beleive that you shouldn't negotiate with terrorists, only kill them. I guess the bottom line is that the coalition had the power to save this mans life and they dropped the ball, kind of like what they've done with Iraq as a whole.

There can be no confusion as to what's the right thing to do. Give in to terrorist demands and you endanger every other American in the country; if they learn that kidnapping works, they will abduct more Americans and try to get even more of their people out. Then they will demand that you retreat from their city, and so on, until you either give up completely or find yourself with your back against the wall, unable to meet their demands. All you do is trade one man's life for another one's.