Outrage as Estonian SS Veterans parade through Tallinn

[Plekhanov]

Independent

Outrage as SS men hold anniversary celebration in Estonia
By Andrew Osborn in Moscow

07 July 2004

The EU newcomer Estonia was accused of amorality and gross historical insensitivity yesterday after it allowed veterans of the Nazi Waffen-SS to parade through its capital Tallinn.

The event saw veterans of the 20th Estonian SS division attend a church service, lay flowers at a war memorial and attend a celebratory concert.

The planned unveiling of a memorial to Estonian SS troops was cancelled at the last minute, however, and is not now expected to take place until the autumn.

Jewish groups pointed out that Estonian volunteers in the SS were responsible for the almost complete annihilation of the country's Jewish population during the Second World War.

Tallinn City Council gave yesterday's event its blessing. It said that it was a "political matter" but, despite promises to the contrary, failed to provide an explanation of why it had agreed to the commemoration.

When asked to comment, Estonia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said the matter was not within its competence, while a government spokesman who apparently specialises in the subject did not respond to inquiries. Officials said that anything concerning Estonia's SS fighters was "highly sensitive". Estonian SS units were formed in 1942 on the personal orders of Adolf Hitler, whose troops then occupied the tiny country. Their fighting prowess was said to have impressed the German Wehrmacht.

Organisers said the celebration was held to mark the 60th anniversary of battles fought by the Estonian SS against the Soviet army and to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the withdrawal of Russian troops from the country.

Many Estonians regard the SS veterans as freedom fighters who fought alongside the Germans to stave off Soviet occupation - the country was occupied by the Soviets before and after the war - and argue that they are military men rather than fascists. They see nothing shameful or controversial in such events and view external criticism as an attempt to blacken Estonia's name.

Government sources say that Estonia is a free country that respects freedom of assembly and that the country's history is not as black and white as it is often made out to be. Jewish groups strongly disagree.

Yevgeny Satanovsky, president of the Russian Jewish Congress, said: "The problem is that the SS is the same institution which had death squads. This meeting is absolutely amoral. They were members of a structure which was a structure of blood and death. Let their children look at their faces and see that there were rivers of [Jewish] blood in Estonia because of them."

Mr Satanovsky suggested that the country's apparently benign attitude towards SS veterans reflected ordinary Estonians' general indifference to the plight of the country's Jews. "Much of the population was absolutely neutral. They were not interested in the rivers of blood, in the extermination of their neighbours who they had lived with peacefully for hundreds of years or in the assassination of women and children.

"Very few of them hid Jewish children. [But] they were interested in getting new property."

Yesterday's event, organised by a group called the Union of Freedom Fighters which claims 3,000 members, is not unprecedented; similar events have been held 11 times since the country won its independence from the Soviet Union in 1991.

Earlier this year Jewish groups were similarly outraged when a statue to a colonel in the SS alleged to have the blood of thousands of Jews and Russians on his hands was erected in the north of the country. The unveiling of the statue - to Colonel Alfons Rebane - was attended by a member of the Estonian parliament and the government itself refused to condemn it, let alone insist on its destruction.

The way in which the Estonian SS veterans are treated by the authorities generates particular anger in the country's former imperial master Russia, which regards the elderly fighters as beyond the pale.

"Today Estonian fascists represent themselves as 'the noble fighters for the freedom of Estonia'. But the words 'the struggle for freedom' cannot stand near the swastika and the two horrible letters SS," said the Interfax news agency, which is closely connected to the Russian government.

I’m not sure what to think about this from my British viewpoint it’s terribly easy to condemn everything bearing the initials SS out of hand. But when you’re a tiny little country like Estonia caught between Stalin and Hitler things must have been much more complicated especially when you consider the history of Russian domination of Estonia.

[Tribun]

For me as a German, this is simply sick.....
I really wonder how they can hold these people in high regard.

[Thinkmarble]

For me as a German, this is simply sick.....
I really wonder how they can hold these people in high regard.

Because they rescued Estonia from the stalinist terror for a couple of years.
Opinion piece

[Frank Hipper]

I can understand, but not sympathise with, their point of view. Joining the SS gave them an opportunity to fight the Soviets.

[His Divine Shadow]

To me this is almost like saying Finland should be ashamed for joining the germans to fight the soviets(like hell we are, we'd do it again in a heartbeat, we'd fight the soviets with everything we got and with the help of whoever offered it), though we never joined the SS our troops fought with german material and equipment and where aided by SS troops, but we did not give any jews to the concentration camps.

I can certainly see the estonians viewpoint here, they where freedom fighters, too bad they had to join the SS but when you're in a tight spot and someone offers to help, what do you do?

[Aeolus]

I’m not sure what to think about this from my British viewpoint it’s terribly easy to condemn everything bearing the initials SS out of hand. But when you’re a tiny little country like Estonia caught between Stalin and Hitler things must have been much more complicated especially when you consider the history of Russian domination of Estonia.

I can't really blame the Estonians or the Finns after all they were caught between Hitler and Stalin and had to choose sides. For many at the time Stalin was seen as a much bigger threat

[His Divine Shadow]

Stalin was the bigger threat, we chose correctly and now we're not in the same shitty state as the balkans and eastern europe.

[Edi]

To echo what HDS said, yes, for the Estonians these people represent opposition to the brutal oppression they had to endure under Stalin, and I don't blmae them for it. Further, ask any Estonian and they will tell you that they condemn the persecution of Jews, also by their own SS volunteers, but the issue here is not so cut and dried and by no means black and white.

Edi

[Howedar]

If there's evidence that the Estonian SS participated in the Holocaust then the Jewish organizations would have fair complaints, otherwise it's a pile of guilt by association.

I'm not saying I like or respect these veterans, but I wouldn't reject their right to assemble out of hand because other elements of the SS committed atrocities.

[Sea Skimmer]

If there's evidence that the Estonian SS participated in the Holocaust then the Jewish organizations would have fair complaints, otherwise it's a pile of guilt by association.

The SS was responsible for far more then just the Holocaust.

[Howedar]

Yes, I know. I was not trying to write a discourse on SS atrocities. If my meaning was not clear, what I meant was evidence of any war crimes committed.

[Axis Kast]

Yes, I know. I was not trying to write a discourse on SS atrocities. If my meaning was not clear, what I meant was evidence of any war crimes committed.

And yet your statement is akin to denying that African American groups have legitimate cause to criticize marches by members of the KKK - after all, most members of that organization have never actually killed a black person. And when we're talking about the Estonian SS, it's difficult to say even that much about them in relation to Estonian Jews, who, as the article points out, were subject to virtual removal from the face of the planet.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I think he is asking if THESE PARTICULAR S.S. Vets participated in the Holocaust.

[CaptainChewbacca]

As I understand it, the Germans came in and said "Would you like to join the separate Estonian SS and fight the communists who want to conquer your country, or do you want to sit and do nothing?"

If the KKK said to me "China is invading and we'll help you raise a militia to fight them." You'd better believe I'd shout WHITE POWER, fight the Chinese, and then kick those racist fucks out of my hometown after it was done.

[Axis Kast]

That's like asking if "these particular KKK marchers participated in lynchings."

I admit that my Judaism makes me more wary about it than many others might be, but I fear that this is a development of Estonian indifference. As with many others throughout the world, there appears to be a bitterness about Jews when it comes to the Holocaust. A kind of, "Well, why haven't we heard the end of it and stopped paying for it yet?" mentality. And the anger that it generates and the implications it suggests are quite scary.

[Axis Kast]

As I understand it, the Germans came in and said "Would you like to join the separate Estonian SS and fight the communists who want to conquer your country, or do you want to sit and do nothing?"

The Estonians had a regular Army, too. It certainly participated in the Second World War.

The SS was a special unit with a special mission. It wasn't "just another fighting force."

[CaptainChewbacca]

That's like asking if "these particular KKK marchers participated in lynchings."

I admit that my Judaism makes me more wary about it than many others might be, but I fear that this is a development of Estonian indifference. As with many others throughout the world, there appears to be a bitterness about Jews when it comes to the Holocaust. A kind of, "Well, why haven't we heard the end of it and stopped paying for it yet?" mentality. And the anger that it generates and the implications it suggests are quite scary.

If this was the first celebration, I'd agree with you, but this has happened 11 times in the last 13 years, it seems to me that these guys are the closest the Estonians have to military heroes in recent memory, and they celebrate them.

I'm a quarter Lebanese Jew, so I understand where you're coming from. However, it seems to me that Jews tend to overreact about the holocause (yeah, I know how it sounds) and that not everything we say is anti-semitism is actually anti-semitism.

[Axis Kast]

If this was the first celebration, I'd agree with you, but this has happened 11 times in the last 13 years, it seems to me that these guys are the closest the Estonians have to military heroes in recent memory, and they celebrate them.

And it was wrong all eleven of those years. The SS men, moreover, are far from the only Estonian veterans.

I'm a quarter Lebanese Jew, so I understand where you're coming from. However, it seems to me that Jews tend to overreact about the holocause (yeah, I know how it sounds) and that not everything we say is anti-semitism is actually anti-semitism.

I agree that it has been to Israel’s detriment that they take certain stands on the nature of criticisms of the Jewish state vis a vis the Palestinians. Of course, they also run into opposition when they call a spade a spade. Ukrainian, Russian, and German resentment for Israel is, in many circles, equally virulent regardless of whether or not charges levied against the actions of their nations are correct. In many cases, the actions of long ago are passed off as mere manifestations of “commonplace” anger and dismissed as nothing out of the ordinary. This position – that any kind of opposition to anti-Semitism is in fact scaremongering and a rejection of “what has always been” – is what’s so dangerous.

[Perinquus]

As some have said, it is rather complicated. Remember than in parts of the Soviet Union, like the Ukraine, and elsewhere, the Germans were at first welcomed as liberators. Many of those Estonians who joined the SS no doubt did so before the Nazis gained their reputation for committing atrocities. And also, in fairness to the SS men who did not take part in atrocities, it is worth noting that there were SS units who apparently never took part in any atrocites (at least there is no evidence that they did), and can honestly claim to be just soldiers like any others (though perhaps a bit more elite). One of the SS foreign volunteer units, the Wiking division, composed mainly of Scandinavians, was one such units that came of the war with a clean record. Several German SS divisions did as well. There were many in the SS, both German and foreign volunteers, who joined the SS not becase they were ardent ideological Nazis, but because they were strong anti-communists, or because they just wanted to be part of an elite organization, which the SS was seen as being (and not altogether undeservedly when you look at their combat record).

Of course, there were also SS units, like the one that massacred the entire village of Oradour-sur-Glane in France, who committed bestial atrocities, and others which gained a richly deserved reputation for brutality on the Eastern front. And of course, the camps were run by the SS. This is regrettable for the SS troopers who conducted themselves honorably, as they will never be able to escape association with the SS men who acted like monsters.

If these Estonian veterans are the sort who fought honorably and bravely, against an enemy they had more than ample reason to hate bitterly, then I cannot begrudge them the wish to commemorate their honorable service as any other soldiers would wish to do. It's unfortunate that they fought beneath one of the most bloodstained and corrupted banners known to history, however.

[Plekhanov]

And yet your statement is akin to denying that African American groups have legitimate cause to criticize marches by members of the KKK - after all, most members of that organization have never actually killed a black person. And when we're talking about the Estonian SS, it's difficult to say even that much about them in relation to Estonian Jews, who, as the article points out, were subject to virtual removal from the face of the planet.

Comparing the Estonian to the KKK isn’t really valid, the KKK is an explicitly white supremacist racist organisation it has no other reason to exist other than to ferment racial hatred. In contrast the Estonian SS had many purposes for existence other than persecuting Jews foremost amongst these was fighting the Russians. It would seem that sections of the Estonian SS did commit war crimes that doesn’t meant that every section and every member did.

Did you read the article Thinkmarble posted? It helps illustrate just how impossible a situation the Estonians found themselves in during the war and when you consider how Estonians had suffered under the Russians and later under the Soviets for some of them to side with the devil they didn’t know is understandable.

[Axis Kast]

The way it is being made to sound, Estonians had two choices: join the SS, or succumb to the Soviets. That's ridiculous. The SS was far from the only formation out of Estonia to combat the Red Army.

[pellaeons_scion]

Im a little confused on this one. From what Ive read, most of the Waffen SS were combat units etc. Hard bitten fighters yes, but not the ones directly responsible for the atrocities.

I thought that was mostly down to the Todt-units and other Special units that were drawn from the regular SS which were far more interested in wiping out jews, homosexuals, deserters etc and generally useless on the front.

I dont know of any specific atrocities commited by the Waffen-SS. If anyone can enlighten me that would be appreciated.

[Plekhanov]

The way it is being made to sound, Estonians had two choices: join the SS, or succumb to the Soviets. That's ridiculous. The SS was far from the only formation out of Estonia to combat the Red Army.

That’s not what I’m arguing, but that the situation for the volunteers and the pressures they were under were so extreme that we should be careful before condemning them without a second thought just because they had “SS” on their uniforms.

What other choices were available to them anyway? Could you please supply some evidence. Also how many of the alternatives to the SS didn't also commit war crimes? It was a very dirty war in some the former Soviet republics.

[pellaeons_scion]

There was also the element of glamour and crusade that the Nazi propoganda machine was very good at putting across. Also as Plekhanov mentioned, Russia was a very dirty war.

We know all about the atrocities the SS commited, and Im not excusing them, but you also had the other side, the NKVD. The Russians themselves were scared of that organisation as much if not more than the SS. They commited acts possibly as heinous as anything the SS did.

I dont think any side in warfare can be truly excluded from Warcrimes.

[Ma Deuce]

Didn't something like this happen a few years ago, only that time it was with Latvian vets of the Waffen SS?