LOL - as much contact as Snoopy did with the Red Baron?

[MKSheppard]

http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2077

.................. “You were not on the same boat??" .....................

I continued to be amazed at the ridiculous statements used by the "talking
heads talking points” Democratic spokespersons concerning eyewitness
accounts of actions taken by John Kerry. Lanny Davis even went as far as
to categorize such accounts as lies because the eyewitnesses were “not
on the same boat as John Kerry.” As these images graphically illustrate,
one did not have to physically be on the same boat during a Swift Boat
operation to be intimately acquainted with both what was going on in an
accompanying boat or also with the people aboard those boats:



In addition, when the boats returned from a mission, everyone lived and
ate and bunked on/in the same living quarters: a berthing ship, LST or
small base. Swift Boat divisions were very small. Everybody knew all of
the other people intimately and well. Whether they got along with them or
not. The Swift Boat sailors that “served with John Kerry” definitely had as
much or more contact with him as any of his assigned crewmen.

Bob Shirley …. Officer-in-Charge PCF-45

[Tsyroc]

So this is basically saying that Snoopy & the Red Baron not only flew together they also hung out together in Marsailles pubs drinking root beer?

[Rogue 9]

The title is a crack at a remark made by our good friend Elfdart, IIRC.

[neoolong]

So this is basically saying that Snoopy & the Red Baron not only flew together they also hung out together in Marsailles pubs drinking root beer?

Wait, didn't Snoopy want to shoot down the Red Baron?

[MKSheppard]

The title is a crack at a remark made by our good friend Elfdart, IIRC.

Nope. Durandal said that.

[Tsyroc]

Right, it was in reference to the Swift Boat vets not having any real contact with Kerry which this appears to refute. Which is why I said that Snoopy & the Red Baron must have been hanging out a lot.

[Marksist]

Actually I believe Jon Stewart said it when taking a shit on the Vets for Truth.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Actually I believe Jon Stewart said it when taking a shit on the Vets for Truth.

Not to be confused with APC Drivers for Public Decency.

[JME2]

So this is basically saying that Snoopy & the Red Baron not only flew together they also hung out together in Marsailles pubs drinking root beer?

Wait, didn't Snoopy want to shoot down the Red Baron?

There's a Farside Comic - one of my all-time favorites - where the Red Baron is posing next to his plane, along with outlines of shot down planes on the plane, including a dog-house and its canine pilot.

[Tsyroc]

Wait, didn't Snoopy want to shoot down the Red Baron?

Yep.

The comment is basically saying that all of the other fast boat people who are criticizing Kerry weren't anywhere near him and weren't in any position to interact with him in the fashion that they claim.

Shep's pictures and article seem to show evidence that people on the other boats would have had a lot of contact with each other, hence my comment about the Red Baron (Swift Boat Vets) hanging out with Snoopy (Kerry).

[neoolong]

Wait, didn't Snoopy want to shoot down the Red Baron?

Yep.

The comment is basically saying that all of the other fast boat people who are criticizing Kerry weren't anywhere near him and weren't in any position to interact with him in the fashion that they claim.

That's what I thought. But it looked like they were saying they "served" together. Like how Kerry and the other vets were at least on the same side, even if they didn't "serve" together.

[Durandal]

http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2077

.................. “You were not on the same boat??" .....................

I continued to be amazed at the ridiculous statements used by the "talking
heads talking points” Democratic spokespersons concerning eyewitness
accounts of actions taken by John Kerry. Lanny Davis even went as far as
to categorize such accounts as lies because the eyewitnesses were “not
on the same boat as John Kerry.” As these images graphically illustrate,
one did not have to physically be on the same boat during a Swift Boat
operation to be intimately acquainted with both what was going on in an
accompanying boat or also with the people aboard those boats:



In addition, when the boats returned from a mission, everyone lived and
ate and bunked on/in the same living quarters: a berthing ship, LST or
small base. Swift Boat divisions were very small. Everybody knew all of
the other people intimately and well. Whether they got along with them or
not. The Swift Boat sailors that “served with John Kerry” definitely had as
much or more contact with him as any of his assigned crewmen.

Bob Shirley …. Officer-in-Charge PCF-45

Yes, and I'm sure that those veterans' memories of the days in question (which happened over 30 years ago) are crystal-clear. Give me a fucking break Shep. Do you really think that, in the midst of combat, and at a distance, you're going to recall everything accurately?

Why don't you just accept the fact that these guys are a pack of liars and cocksuckers still sore over John Kerry's Senate testimony 3 decades ago, and now they just want to undermine his chances at the presidency?

[SirNitram]

So Shep's position is to ridicule the comment that the 'serving with' qualifier is as accurate as Snoopy serving with the Red Baron.

So he shows evidence that one could look out of the side of your Swift Boat and see another Swift Boat. Sort of like how a WW1 fighter could see another WW1 fighter, and if you had good eyes, the pilot.

No evidence that the SBVT folks were assigned to similar tracts of area at the time so they could actually be considered viable witnesses. Just a 'Swift Boats moved in groups' assertion.. Which everyone already knew.

Yes, the SBVT folks, if any were assigned to the same regions as Kerry, could look over the side and see him. Just like Snoopy kept seeing the Baron as the bullets started flying.

[CaptainChewbacca]

So Shep's position is to ridicule the comment that the 'serving with' qualifier is as accurate as Snoopy serving with the Red Baron.

So he shows evidence that one could look out of the side of your Swift Boat and see another Swift Boat. Sort of like how a WW1 fighter could see another WW1 fighter, and if you had good eyes, the pilot.

No evidence that the SBVT folks were assigned to similar tracts of area at the time so they could actually be considered viable witnesses. Just a 'Swift Boats moved in groups' assertion.. Which everyone already knew.

Yes, the SBVT folks, if any were assigned to the same regions as Kerry, could look over the side and see him. Just like Snoopy kept seeing the Baron as the bullets started flying.

No, smart guy, the evidence is that a group of boats will be in close contact while on patrol, and the 75% of the time that they're not, they bunk and eat as a single unit.

Think of it in elementary school terms: You have a "work group" of four or five kids to work on your report on the donner party. So you have your desks together for 2 hours a day. The rest of the time, you're group joins the rest of the class.

I know elementary school analogies are easy for you to relate to

[SirNitram]

No, smart guy, the evidence is that a group of boats will be in close contact while on patrol, and the 75% of the time that they're not, they bunk and eat as a single unit.

Think of it in elementary school terms: You have a "work group" of four or five kids to work on your report on the donner party. So you have your desks together for 2 hours a day. The rest of the time, you're group joins the rest of the class.

I know elementary school analogies are easy for you to relate to

Not really, not having been there in a decade, but it's obvious why you chose it.

Again, for the brain damaged: Swift Boats travelled in groups. Yay. Are we to beleive every Swift Boat pulled into the same berthing ship? Assuming no, is there a shred of evidence the yokels in question were in a position to know what they claim?

I'll keep it in the grade school reference so you don't get lost: Sure, the 'work groups' come together into a class, but if we don't know if someone was in the class in question or on the other side of the city, why are we assuming he knows what he's talking about? When there's evidence the SBVT folks were actually in a position to know, I'll not make these posts.

[Perinquus]

So Shep's position is to ridicule the comment that the 'serving with' qualifier is as accurate as Snoopy serving with the Red Baron.

So he shows evidence that one could look out of the side of your Swift Boat and see another Swift Boat. Sort of like how a WW1 fighter could see another WW1 fighter, and if you had good eyes, the pilot.

And when the patrol or sortie was over you'd go back and land on the same airfield, eat in the same chow hall, sleep in the same barracks, sit in the same mission briefings, and generally live cheek by jowl with the other pilots and get to know them as well or better than your own family.

Note: all of the above also applies to the swift boat veterans.

No evidence that the SBVT folks were assigned to similar tracts of area at the time so they could actually be considered viable witnesses. Just a 'Swift Boats moved in groups' assertion.. Which everyone already knew.

Uh, okay. Could you please explain to me how boats can move in groups (we have your own admission that they do this, as well as photographs showing that they operated in close proximity to each other), and not be assigned to "similar tracts of area"?

Yes, the SBVT folks, if any were assigned to the same regions as Kerry, could look over the side and see him. Just like Snoopy kept seeing the Baron as the bullets started flying.

Nice strawman.

Assuming for a moment that Snoopy represents a Royal Flying Corps pilot and the Red Baron, of course, flew for the opposite side, that means that Von Richtofen would glimpse a British pilot for a few moments in combat, and they would then return to different aerodromes, assuming they both survived their mutual attempts to kill each other. So of course, they never spoke, never really met personally, never got to know each other, etc. The sum total of all their contact with each other would be distant glimpses of each others' faces in the air.

And this would apply to John Kerry and the men of his own unit how, exactly?

And of course we have a statement from a veteran of a swift boat unit saying the following:

In addition, when the boats returned from a mission, everyone lived and
ate and bunked on/in the same living quarters: a berthing ship, LST or
small base. Swift Boat divisions were very small. Everybody knew all of
the other people intimately and well. Whether they got along with them or
not. The Swift Boat sailors that “served with John Kerry” definitely had as
much or more contact with him as any of his assigned crewmen.

Bob Shirley …. Officer-in-Charge PCF-45

So Kerry and his fellow officers did share lving accomodations with each other, did see each other every day, did operate in close proximity with each other, did eat the same food in the same chow hall, did sit in the same mission briefings and after action reports, etc. In other words, they lived in conditions which permitted them to come to know each other very well indeed.

Now, I have not followed this swift boat matter all that closely, and I will admit that it is perfectly possible that some of the swift boat veterans' attacks on Kerry are motivated by politics. But I do find it interesting that Kerry, rather than directly refute the charges, and produce evidence to support his case, is instead calling on Bush to condemn the ads, filing an FEC complaint, calling on the publisher of Unfit for Command to withdraw the book, complaining that Republicans gave the group money, etc. In other words, he's attacking the people making the allegations, and calling their motives into question, but not actually responding in any sort of substantial way to the claims these veterans are making. I thought we called that sort of thing ad hominem attacks and appeal to motive fallacies. Doesn't it suggest anything to anyone that Kerry is responding with fallacious attacks instead of real, substantive arguments? Don't we usually recognize that as a sign of a weak position?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Not really, not having been there in a decade, but it's obvious why you chose it.

Again, for the brain damaged: Swift Boats travelled in groups. Yay. Are we to beleive every Swift Boat pulled into the same berthing ship? Assuming no, is there a shred of evidence the yokels in question were in a position to know what they claim?

A swift boat detachment WOULD put all its boats in the same place i.e. berthing ship or dock. That's naval doctrine.

[SirNitram]

Not really, not having been there in a decade, but it's obvious why you chose it.

Again, for the brain damaged: Swift Boats travelled in groups. Yay. Are we to beleive every Swift Boat pulled into the same berthing ship? Assuming no, is there a shred of evidence the yokels in question were in a position to know what they claim?

A swift boat detachment WOULD put all its boats in the same place i.e. berthing ship or dock. That's naval doctrine.

So there was only one detachment, or there has been evidence this group was in the same detachment? Wow, that would only cover what I was hoping to get. Will I be seeing it any time soon?

[MKSheppard]

A swift boat detachment WOULD put all its boats in the same place i.e. berthing ship or dock. That's naval doctrine.

And the OP states as much. I guess Nitram needs to brush up on his reading comprehension skillz

[SirNitram]

A swift boat detachment WOULD put all its boats in the same place i.e. berthing ship or dock. That's naval doctrine.

And the OP states as much. I guess Nitram needs to brush up on his reading comprehension skillz

Given that I've been asking if there is some reference to there being only one detachment, or proof the SBVT were in the same detachment as Kerry's, it looks like Shep, as usual, is the one having reading troubles.. Wonder if I'll ever actually see anything demonstrating what I've asked for...

[MKSheppard]

Given that I've been asking if there is some reference to there being only one detachment, or proof the SBVT were in the same detachment as Kerry's, it looks like Shep, as usual, is the one having reading troubles.. Wonder if I'll ever actually see anything demonstrating what I've asked for...

[imh]http://www.stardestroyer.net/Armour/brothers.jpg[/img]

But of course, that photograph is merely a FRAAAAAAAAUD concocted by the EEEEEEEEVIL Vast Right Wing
Conspiracy's photoshoppery department.

[SirNitram]

Given that I've been asking if there is some reference to there being only one detachment, or proof the SBVT were in the same detachment as Kerry's, it looks like Shep, as usual, is the one having reading troubles.. Wonder if I'll ever actually see anything demonstrating what I've asked for...

[imh]http://www.stardestroyer.net/Armour/brothers.jpg[/img]

But of course, that photograph is merely a FRAAAAAAAAUD concocted by the EEEEEEEEVIL Vast Right Wing
Conspiracy's photoshoppery department.

That only took pulling hen's teeth. Okay, these guys were present.

[MKSheppard]

That only took pulling hen's teeth. Okay, these guys were present.

I posted those two pictures in a thread a couple of weeks ago; thank
goodness I didn't delete them from the SDN server.

[SirNitram]

That only took pulling hen's teeth. Okay, these guys were present.

I posted those two pictures in a thread a couple of weeks ago; thank
goodness I didn't delete them from the SDN server.

Yes, because we all know I read and committ to memory every thread in the message board, just how you listen to Chopin and Beethovan constantly.

[Rogue 9]

Well, in fairness he doesn't listen to Beethoven and Chopin because he can't...