Bush team 'knew of abuse' at Guantánamo in 2002

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2004-09-16 11:40am

DISCLAIMER: This is the Guardian, so this is either the biggest story of our time or the biggest pile of horseshit of our time. Take with salt.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/st ... 05,00.html

www.POE-News.com wrote:Evidence of prisoner abuse and possible war crimes at Guantánamo Bay reached the highest levels of the Bush administration as early as autumn 2002, but Donald Rumsfeld, the defence secretary, chose to do nothing about it, according to a new investigation published exclusively in the Guardian today.

The investigation, by the veteran journalist Seymour Hersh, quotes one former marine at the camp recalling sessions in which guards would "f*ck with [detainees] as much as we could" by inflicting pain on them.

The Bush administration repeatedly assured critics that inmates were granted recreation periods, but one Pentagon adviser told Hersh how, for some prisoners, they consisted of being left in straitjackets in intense sunlight with hoods over their heads.

If this is true, Bush is fucked. But this IS the Guardian, so that already throws this issue in doubt...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-09-16 11:46am

Bush isn't fucked. This story could be 110% true and Bush wouldn't be fucked. I'm convinced that Bush is simply immune to any charges that are thrown at him by virtue of the sheer fanatical loyalty of his followers. You could find videotape of Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush sitting around and laughing about detainee abuse and his followers would just shrug it off. The longer this campaign goes on, the more obvious that is.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-16 11:48am

Darth Wong wrote:You could find a videotape of Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush having hot man sex and his followers would just shrug it off. The longer this campaign goes on, the more obvious that is.

I think that's a more accurate quote, Mike, sorry for doing this, I know how
you hate that, but GODDAMN that was an opportunity I couldn't pass up

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-09-16 11:54am

Mike's right. I'll go "But CLINTON" on this one and say, if clinton had charges levelled against him as Bush has, he would have been impeached...impeached....impeached...impeached... Clinton lied about fucking an intern. Bush lied and fucked the whole country.

Yet Bush is unscathed. I believe he remains in office because he's so goddamned stupid he's as malleable as play-doh, big boyz use him like a puppet. Could you almost see the devil horns sprout from his head when he gave that speech that said, in effect, "now, now, now, kiddies, we never actually said the WORDS 'there are WMD's™ in Iraq, you drew that conclusion yourselves'"

Result:
So, 1000 american lives later, here we are.

"I...Did not...have...sexual...relations...with that woman....Ms. Lewinsky."

Result:
Media circus. CNN has a field day, CSPAN finally gets decent ratings. Clinton finishes term. Begin dark ages.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2004-09-16 11:56am

Darth Wong wrote:Bush isn't fucked. This story could be 110% true and Bush wouldn't be fucked. I'm convinced that Bush is simply immune to any charges that are thrown at him by virtue of the sheer fanatical loyalty of his followers. You could find videotape of Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush sitting around and laughing about detainee abuse and his followers would just shrug it off. The longer this campaign goes on, the more obvious that is.

You have an extremely strong point there. After all, Bush's Fundycrat followers have his exact same childish hostility towards leaving innocent people the fuck alone as he does.

It also doesn't help that Kerry abso-fucking-lutely REFUSES to catch all of Shrubby's perfectly-thrown interceptions, much less run 'em back for a Touchdown.

WHERE THE FUCK IS KUCINICH AND ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE!!? THIS TWO-PARTY SYSTEM IS BULLSHIT!!

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-09-18 08:53pm

The source isn't really the Guardian, it's Seymour Hersh -arguably the greatest journalist of our age. He broke the story of My Lai and numerous others. Watching him on Bill O'Liely's show was like watching a real actress such as Gwyneth Paltrow at an AVN awards show.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-09-18 09:16pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You could find a videotape of Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush having hot man sex and his followers would just shrug it off. The longer this campaign goes on, the more obvious that is.
I think that's a more accurate quote, Mike, sorry for doing this, I know how
you hate that, but GODDAMN that was an opportunity I couldn't pass up

And then Michael Moore would speed it up, set it to Yackity Sax and sell it on street corners for a dollar.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-09-18 11:20pm

I think Bush's approval would go up if the public found out he was behind the abuse of those bunch of terrorist commie sand monkeys.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2004-09-19 02:19pm

The levels of rhetoric are simply amazing. All of the arguments simply disappear under a cloud of "speculation". Bush could do anything he wanted to with idiots like that.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-09-19 02:44pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:WHERE THE FUCK IS KUCINICH AND ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE!!? THIS TWO-PARTY SYSTEM IS BULLSHIT!!

Kucinich was a fucking head-in-the-clouds joke.

And if we had multi-party, I'd be rather grumpy with each of my leaders only being chosen by 40% or so of the populace.

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2004-09-19 02:52pm

Sorry, but where were you people ?

Prisoner abuse in Gutamano Bay, Iraq and Afgahnistan, People in custody killed all over the place, the torture memo, people being disappeared on the orders of Rumsfeld.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-09-19 02:52pm

Don't blame me, I voted for Dean.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-19 03:16pm

Darth Wong wrote:Bush isn't fucked. This story could be 110% true and Bush wouldn't be fucked. I'm convinced that Bush is simply immune to any charges that are thrown at him by virtue of the sheer fanatical loyalty of his followers. You could find videotape of Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush sitting around and laughing about detainee abuse and his followers would just shrug it off. The longer this campaign goes on, the more obvious that is.

I think that's part of it.

And part of it is you'll have a one hell of a hard time convincing the American people in general that we ought to be absolutely appalled at the abuse of terrorist-barbarians. After the litanty of beheadings and sadisitc murders I think most people are just going to shrug off the abuse of detainees.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-09-19 04:08pm

Stormbringer wrote:And part of it is you'll have a one hell of a hard time convincing the American people in general that we ought to be absolutely appalled at the abuse of terrorist-barbarians. After the litanty of beheadings and sadisitc murders I think most people are just going to shrug off the abuse of detainees.

Thing is, they were shrugging it off even before the beheadings began. Now they are just an excuse to keep pretending there's nothing wrong.

Edi

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-09-19 04:33pm

Stormbringer wrote:And part of it is you'll have a one hell of a hard time convincing the American people in general that we ought to be absolutely appalled at the abuse of terrorist-barbarians.

I don't think the American people in gerneral are that stupid. I think they recognize that human rights are not only for US citizens or for those people you like. And the majority of Americans know that not every Afghani is a terrorist. Those that aren't shocked at hearing about the abuse of Afghan taxi drivers, fathers and children are just the usual crowd of zealously nationalistic brickheads that don't give a damn about the rights of others.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-19 04:38pm

Iceberg wrote:Don't blame me, I voted for Dean.

That should be a Tshirt.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2004-09-19 05:53pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:I think Bush's approval would go up if the public found out he was behind the abuse of those bunch of terrorist commie sand monkeys.

I believe the racist term you're looking for is towelheads.

And knowing the american populace, they would just start jerking off if they found a video of Bush in a gimp mask whipping some random arab.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-19 07:15pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:I believe the racist term you're looking for is towelheads.

RAGHEAD you damn dirty COMMIE

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-09-19 07:20pm

I prefer camel jockeys, personally. Or rock chuckers, for Palestinians.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-19 09:46pm

Edi wrote:Thing is, they were shrugging it off even before the beheadings began. Now they are just an excuse to keep pretending there's nothing wrong.

Actually, things like the Daniel Pearl kidnapping and beheading had already occurred before there was any credible reportings of abuse. And there were plenty of other terrorist outrages other than the beheadings.

September 11th comes to mind.

GySgt. Hartman wrote:I don't think the American people in gerneral are that stupid. I think they recognize that human rights are not only for US citizens or for those people you like.

Most of the American people do, at least on an intellectual level. The problem is applying that to terrorists who have pertrated, or are least part of the organizations that have, is another thing entirely. It's quite frankly against human nature to feel sympathy for a bunch of homicidal religious lunatics that are going after you and yours.

So in short, yes there are people that do care. But it's hard to overcome the notion that it's fair game because of their behaviour. Especially considering that there's no way in hell the terrorists are going to observe anything but their most barbaric interpertation of the Koran.

GySgt. Hartman wrote:And the majority of Americans know that not every Afghani is a terrorist.

Yes, they do. But we're talking about terrorists or at least those that likely to be. That changes things drastically.

GySgt. Hartman wrote:Those that aren't shocked at hearing about the abuse of Afghan taxi drivers, fathers and children are just the usual crowd of zealously nationalistic brickheads that don't give a damn about the rights of others.

If these were innocents then that'd have a point. As it is their concern is far more with the fathers, mothers, and children the terrorists have killed and the fathers, mothers, and children serving in our Armed Forces.

Post by **Edi** » 2004-09-20 02:01am

Stormbringer wrote:
Edi wrote:Thing is, they were shrugging it off even before the beheadings began. Now they are just an excuse to keep pretending there's nothing wrong.
Actually, things like the Daniel Pearl kidnapping and beheading had already occurred before there was any credible reportings of abuse. And there were plenty of other terrorist outrages other than the beheadings.

September 11th comes to mind.

Well, I forgot about Pearl, and I don't see it as being very relevant to abuses in Iraq because he was killed in Afghanistan (or was it Pakistan?). As for September 11th, what has that got to do with Iraq other than that Bush lied about Saddam's AQ connections to get his war? The fact is, a large majority of Americans don't give a shit about American soldiers abusing and torturing people who they identify as having any connection with the September 11th terrorists, and connection here means just being the same broad ethnicity or from the same broad geographical region.

Edi

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-09-20 10:50am

Stormbringer wrote:If these were innocents then that'd have a point. As it is their concern is far more with the fathers, mothers, and children the terrorists have killed and the fathers, mothers, and children serving in our Armed Forces.

AFAIK the only thing the people imprisoned in Guantanamo have done is that they were in Afghanistan during the war. There were no trials to determine guilt, the US simply offered money in exchange for terrorists, so some people decided they could make a good deal by snatching people they didn't like and selling them to the US; basically the same thing as during the witch hunts.
I am not saying that everyone imprisoned there is really innocent, but they are at least innocent until proven otherwise. No (fair) trial, no guilt.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-20 02:17pm

Edi wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Edi wrote:Thing is, they were shrugging it off even before the beheadings began. Now they are just an excuse to keep pretending there's nothing wrong.
Actually, things like the Daniel Pearl kidnapping and beheading had already occurred before there was any credible reportings of abuse. And there were plenty of other terrorist outrages other than the beheadings.

September 11th comes to mind.
Well, I forgot about Pearl, and I don't see it as being very relevant to abuses in Iraq because he was killed in Afghanistan (or was it Pakistan?). As for September 11th, what has that got to do with Iraq other than that Bush lied about Saddam's AQ connections to get his war? The fact is, a large majority of Americans don't give a shit about American soldiers abusing and torturing people who they identify as having any connection with the September 11th terrorists, and connection here means just being the same broad ethnicity or from the same broad geographical region.

Edi

You do realize that this article and the allegatios are talking about Guantanamo Bay right?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-09-20 02:19pm

Stormbringer wrote:It's quite frankly against human nature to feel sympathy for a bunch of homicidal religious lunatics that are going after you and yours.

Here's part of the problem, everyone.

Bush and his goons have convinced everyone that everyone in X-Ray and in that prison is a dirty AQ raghead terrorist, which is quite simply untrue.