Montreal School Refuses Prayer Rooms For Muslims

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Aaron
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Montreal School Refuses Prayer Rooms For Muslims

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CBC
CBC wrote: As the holy month of Ramadan begins, Muslim students will have to pray in cramped stairwells at two Montreal engineering schools because the institutions won't rent space to let them practise their faith.

Muslims gather to pray at Toronto's Ryerson University.
The post-secondary schools say they are secular institutions and do not need to accommodate religious practices.

Farid Ghanem, a former student at l' Ecole de Technologie Superieure, and more than 100 other Muslim students have taken the Montreal engineering school to the Quebec Human Rights Commission for failing to provide the students with a place to pray.

Their faith requires Muslims to pray five times a day, facing in the direction of the holy city of Mecca.

An extra prayer is added during Ramadan, when believers concentrate more on their faith life and less on the concerns of the outside world, and are not allowed to eat or drink during daylight hours.

The human rights commission is expected to rule on the issue in the next few weeks.

Its decision is likely to attract a lot of attention, given that Islam is Canada's fastest-growing religion and the largest non-Christian faith in Quebec.

The dispute has been dragging on for two years.

Partly as a result of not being allowed to rent space for devotions, Ghanem became fed up with l'Ecole de Technologie and dropped out to do his PhD elsewhere.

"We felt that we were not accepted here and it was hostile," said Ghanem.

A second engineering school in Montreal has taken the same position as Ghanem's former school on Muslim religious practice. The Ecole Polytechnique is not offering its Muslim students a special prayer room.

"We are a secular institution and our mission doesn't include religion. It's education and research, " said Chantal Cantin, the school's communications director.

Cantin also said the Polytechnique is short on space.

Montreal human rights activist Fo Niemi doesn't buy the argument about secularism.

"Being secular doesn't mean one has to ban religion...it means our institution shall have no official religion," he said.

Niemi said other universities are providing prayer rooms, but he's still worried by what he sees as religious intolerance within Quebec's educational system.

What's the policy at Quebec's High and Elementry schools? Are there rooms there for Muslims to pray? It was my understanding that all schools, save private schools in Canada are secular. And that if you want to practice your faith then you are to do it privately.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

They can't go outside to pray?
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
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Post by Temjin »

"Being secular doesn't mean one has to ban religion...it means our institution shall have no official religion," he said.
I love this part. Someone should tell the dimwit that just because they're ignoring it doesn't mean they're banning it. Secular means not dealing with religions at all.
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Post by Montcalm »

some says that since we removed ever Christian symbols out of public schools and government building,why should other beliefs enter
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Post by Darth Wong »

Why the fuck does the school have to give or rent them a special room to pray in? They're not OBLIGATED to make any special arrangements for ANY religion; these idiots obviously don't understand what secularism is.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Nor, do they grasp the simple premise that a school is for educational purposes. It is not for social soapbox competitions.
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Post by Executor32 »

Ugh. Are they deliberately not turning on their brains before they complain about this kind of shit? (Don't answer that question.) :wink:

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Post by Falkenhayn »

Hurray for the institution.

A high school near where I live provided a very illegal prayer room for Muslim students year round, while enforcing areligous policy on other faiths.
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Post by Montcalm »

Executor32 wrote:Ugh. Are they deliberately not turning on their brains before they complain about this kind of shit? (Don't answer that question.):wink:
Can't resist....must answer:wink: simple explanation,religios fanatics whatever beliefs they have don't know how to turn on their brains
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Post by sketerpot »

I notice a pattern here. Whenever some secular institution refuses to acknowledge religion, many (maybe even most) people of religions that are inconvenienced by this think that the institution is actively persecuting them and violating their right to freedom of religion. This is how a prohibition on school prayer becomes "silencing free speech", and refusing to teach Creationism/ID becomes "establishment of a religion---secular humanism".

Why is it that so many religious people seem to think like this? I used to think that it was just fundies, but if you hear almost anybody in this town get into a conversation about it, they'll confuse indifference with persecution. Is it just a widespread lack of understanding about what the terms mean?
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Post by Skelron »

I'm in two minds, I don't see why a room should not be provided, it dosn't seem that hard for the schools to do... Unless in these places space is at a 24hour premium rate you can usualy find a room somewhere in schools/Universityies that is not being used at a particular time.

I don't see it as being too much hassle to say... 'Okay you can go here' if nothing was occuring in the rooms anyway... I also don't see it as something that gets in the way of the secular status of the place either, it seems to me to be roughly the same as allowing a society the use of a room within the Union here at Trent. (Including the Christian Society, the Islamic society etc etc.) In this case you are meeting the Social needs of the students without commenting on the religious aspect.

Is it a case for the Courts... Maybe not... is the School in the right... No.
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Post by Sarevok »

The thing is most schools even here dont have prayer rooms. Heck many of them dont even have prayer breaks. If the students want to pray they go to nearby mosques. Demanding such a facility in a western country is an outrage.
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Post by Shinova »

Executor32 wrote: OT: Montcalm, that has to be the fucking coolest avatar I've ever seen. *saves* :D

I think it should be a middle finger instead, but this way's fine too. :)
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Post by salm »

Skelron wrote:I'm in two minds, I don't see why a room should not be provided, it dosn't seem that hard for the schools to do... Unless in these places space is at a 24hour premium rate you can usualy find a room somewhere in schools/Universityies that is not being used at a particular time.

I don't see it as being too much hassle to say... 'Okay you can go here' if nothing was occuring in the rooms anyway... I also don't see it as something that gets in the way of the secular status of the place either, it seems to me to be roughly the same as allowing a society the use of a room within the Union here at Trent. (Including the Christian Society, the Islamic society etc etc.) In this case you are meeting the Social needs of the students without commenting on the religious aspect.

Is it a case for the Courts... Maybe not... is the School in the right... No.
same here. what´s so bad about providing them with a prayer room. who cares if they pray in some room which isn´t used for other stuff is used for prayer? at least in the schools i was there would always be rooms which weren´t used permanently.

so just give them a room to pray in and if it´s needed for school stuff throw them out.
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Post by Batman »

salm wrote: same here. what´s so bad about providing them with a prayer room. who cares if they pray in some room which isn´t used for other stuff is used for prayer? at least in the schools i was there would always be rooms which weren´t used permanently.
so just give them a room to pray in and if it´s needed for school stuff throw them out.
I personally would have had no quarrel had the school done that.
What I do have a quarrel with is the Islamic student's arrogant assumption that they are entitled to it.
Which they're not. Being a secular institution it has no obligation to accomodate any religion on its grounds.Unless rooms for religious practises is provided for any religion the Muslims have, quite simply, nothing to complain about.
So they chose a high-maintenance religion. Tough cookies. That's their problem and not the universities. As The Shadow said, nobody's keeping them from going to a nearby mosque, our I dunno, how bout simply outside?
As far as I'm concerned the Uni may feel free to go ahead and do provide prayer rooms to Muslims, Christians, Wiccans, Burrito worshippers, as long as it's done fairly and has no impact on classes who cares?
It is, however, by no means required to do so.
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Post by Coyote »

Islam has a strong missionary commandment to it, and they have learned that in the West people have a soft spot for anyone that is "Persecuted".

When the Western Muslims want something, and they are denied, they put on the 'puppy-dog eyes' and let their lower lips tremble sadly and say, "but... but you're persecuting me for no reason!"

Thus they get their way and everyone has a warm fuzzy, and the Islamic aggresive conversion machine builds up a litle more steam.
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Post by Broomstick »

I am not aware of any requirement that Muslims have a dedicated or segregated prayer space.

It is not unknown for Muslims where I work to unroll a prayer rug next to their desk for a few minutes during Ramadan in order to make their observances. No one bothers them, and they don't bother us.
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Post by salm »

Batman wrote: I personally would have had no quarrel had the school done that.
What I do have a quarrel with is the Islamic student's arrogant assumption that they are entitled to it.
Which they're not. Being a secular institution it has no obligation to accomodate any religion on its grounds.Unless rooms for religious practises is provided for any religion the Muslims have, quite simply, nothing to complain about.
sure, they´re not entitled to it. anyway, the school could improve these students lives without costs (neither financial nor otherwise) at all.
it´s pretty unsocial to deny something which is valueable to somebody even though there are no negative side effects or costs for the one that gives or other people.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Islam has a strong missionary commandment to it, and they have learned that in the West people have a soft spot for anyone that is "Persecuted".

When the Western Muslims want something, and they are denied, they put on the 'puppy-dog eyes' and let their lower lips tremble sadly and say, "but... but you're persecuting me for no reason!"

Thus they get their way and everyone has a warm fuzzy, and the Islamic aggresive conversion machine builds up a litle more steam.
Rather similar to the way in which the rightist Christians have an annoying tendency to scream "persecution". Guess the Muslims learn from the best.
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Post by Next of Kin »

Darth Wong wrote:Why the fuck does the school have to give or rent them a special room to pray in? They're not OBLIGATED to make any special arrangements for ANY religion; these idiots obviously don't understand what secularism is.
I remember a pretty heated story in the news back in April or May of this year. A high school in Hamilton, ON gave the boots to an evangelical Christian group who was looking to meet on school time. The group made demands such as a room and a time frame yet the school said no. Good for them to stand up to a religious group. If you want to have a prayer group then take it off school property and go nuts.
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Post by salm »

Next of Kin wrote: If you want to have a prayer group then take it off school property and go nuts.
why? it doesn´t cost money to give them a room and if the room is needed otherwise they could be thrown out for that timeframe.
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Post by Coyote »

HemlockGrey wrote:
Islam has a strong missionary commandment to it, and they have learned that in the West people have a soft spot for anyone that is "Persecuted".
Rather similar to the way in which the rightist Christians have an annoying tendency to scream "persecution". Guess the Muslims learn from the best.
Indeed so- except that since in the US (or West in general), Christianity is the "dominant culture", they get little sympathy from the well-meaning but soft-hearted. But because Islam is typically asociated with non-Whites, they get an extra pass by playing the whit racial guilt card.

Religion has no place in a school... folks that want to usher it in are seeking confrontation, IMO.
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Post by Gandalf »

salm wrote:
Next of Kin wrote: If you want to have a prayer group then take it off school property and go nuts.
why? it doesn´t cost money to give them a room and if the room is needed otherwise they could be thrown out for that timeframe.
Could do what my school did, if you have a group like this you just found a room at lunchtime when there were no classes.

No one minded as long as everything was set as it was.
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Post by salm »

Gandalf wrote: Could do what my school did, if you have a group like this you just found a room at lunchtime when there were no classes.

No one minded as long as everything was set as it was.
my point is a different one. why shouldn´t an institution like a school give access to rooms for groups (be it religious or not) which are not used otherwise?
it´t not like the room would get worn down to a signifcant degree.
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Post by Gandalf »

salm wrote:
Gandalf wrote: Could do what my school did, if you have a group like this you just found a room at lunchtime when there were no classes.

No one minded as long as everything was set as it was.
my point is a different one. why shouldn´t an institution like a school give access to rooms for groups (be it religious or not) which are not used otherwise?
it´t not like the room would get worn down to a signifcant degree.
That's kind of what I meant, I was just providing an example of it working.
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