What if Ben Franklin had succeeded?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-12-06 03:36am

In the early 1770's, Ben Franklin and some of the founding fathers attempted to make a secret mission to Canada to get them to join the Revolution. But, Franklin had confided this mission to his son, the Royal Governor of New Jersey and he reported that to his superiors, and they intercepted the mission.

Now, what if Franklin had had a falling-out with his son earlier, and hadn't told him about it. The mission goes off, and Franklin's force of personality combined with some luck gets Canada to join the revolution?

How would history be different if the brits lost the whole continent?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-12-06 03:37am

edit: forgot to add-

With Quebec at the Continental Congress, would states be allowed to establish a religion while the federal government couldn't? Could there have been a different first ammendment?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-12-06 04:35am

If Canada's in on the deal, France might require Quebec as part of the bargain to enter the war, and I think that's a deal most people would be happy with.

Of course, then the Napoleonic wars come around, and while Napoleon will still probably sell Louisiana, we see more troop activity in North America as the British try to retake Quebec, starting from the first wars with Revolutionary France. Might lead to a more militarized early US, or a more favorable US result in 1812 (providing the Quebecois can keep British troops in NA adequately tied up).

Post by **Steve** » 2004-12-06 04:55am

Um, no, I really don't see the Colonials letting France have Quebec, and the French weren't dumb enough to ask for it, knowing full well the Colonials would be suspicious and unhappy with a restoration of French presence in North America. The French would rather concentrate on other points of interest, like the Caribbean and India.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-12-06 04:59am

Uh, that's not what I meant to say. I meant to say, "Quebec might want to rejoin France" but my brain must have switched it around or something.

It's possible that I'm just pulling that out of my ass, because it's not like the Quebecois really had a great time under Vandreuil near the end of the French and Indian War, but whatever.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-12-06 05:00am

Pity. I thought this thread was going to be about Franklin's effort to outlaw slavery shortly before he died.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-12-06 06:26am

My first thought as well.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-12-06 10:19am

France is bankrupt and getting more bankrupt with each passing day. They would not be able or willing to take on the expense of administering a huge continental territory once again. They consider their Carribean possessions far more valuable. So did the British, actually, which is one reason why they ultimately lost the war.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-12-06 11:09am

How is Franklin buying off the church?

The Catholic Church more or less ran Quebec and they had been given the freedom to continue doing so by Britain meanwhile in New England papists weren't thought of particularly fondly (which isn’t to say they were going to be hunted down and shot but it is something the church will keep in mind) and the declaration of Independence specifically complains about Britain allowing the French Canadians to keep their own laws.

The church was so much in Britain’s pocket that the Church announced that anybody helping the American cause would be excommunicated.

Lets also not forget that Quebec had been granted a large amount of land by the crown which the colonials were unhappy about and had their own claims upon, Franklin is going to have to make some huge concessions to pull this off and that is going to have huge repercussions for the continent as a whole and most likely the internal makeup of the US as well.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-06 11:15am

So tell Quebec to go screw itself and bring the rest of Canada on board. It's not like Canada = Quebec here.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2004-12-06 11:25am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:In the early 1770's, Ben Franklin and some of the founding fathers attempted to make a secret mission to Canada to get them to join the Revolution. But, Franklin had confided this mission to his son, the Royal Governor of New Jersey and he reported that to his superiors, and they intercepted the mission.

Now, what if Franklin had had a falling-out with his son earlier, and hadn't told him about it. The mission goes off, and Franklin's force of personality combined with some luck gets Canada to join the revolution?

How would history be different if the brits lost the whole continent?

Its actually not that far of a stretch. Apparently Nova Scotia had some revolutionary movements that might have joined up with the US (not sure about NB or PEI). The loyalists who fled to Nova Scotia pretty much stopped that in its tracks (too many people were now against them). But if they revolted along with the US, the loyalists would have no place to go.

Ontario was still pretty darn unpopulated by the white folk, and needed the fleeing loyalist population (who had free land offers) to become a real colony. At Franklin's time, it would be a non-issue

I can't see why France would want Quebec back. It was never that profitable - the fur trade had dried up, timber wasn't export friendly in the 1700s, and it didn't have any valuable resources. Personally, I'd expect Quebec to join the US - willingly or not.

The Louisana purchase could actually help Quebec, since you'd have two French speaking areas, and could work together to try to maintain the language.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-12-06 11:37am

Rogue 9 wrote:So tell Quebec to go screw itself and bring the rest of Canada on board. It's not like Canada = Quebec here.

At the time that was the case to a large degree, the other main part of Canada at the time was Nova Scotia which actually tried to rebel (or sent a few delegates to the convention at least) but the fact that it is a strategically isolated British military base put that issue to rest rather quickly.

The rest of Canada is pretty much Indian tribes who also knew which side their bread was buttered upon and were beyond the rest of the US anyway.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-12-06 12:16pm

When I read the title, I thought this was about Franklin successfully getting superpowers by harnessing the lightning...

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2004-12-06 03:15pm

Slartibartfast wrote:When I read the title, I thought this was about Franklin successfully getting superpowers by harnessing the lightning...

I thought it was about him trying to make the turkey our national bird.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-12-06 03:34pm

Well then, as the starter of this thread, let's open it up;

What if ALL of Franklin's ideas had been implemented? From abolishing slavery and including canada in the union to the national turkey and the phonetic alphabet!

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-12-06 05:08pm

Imagine how the development of music might have proceeded if his armonica had become popular instead of being condemned out of panic in the 1830s...

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-12-06 06:53pm

Yeah, why'd it get condemned? Beethoven and Mozart loved the thing?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-12-06 07:22pm

Superstition. The idea got around that the armonica's unusual tones were driving people mad, particularly it's performers. And it got tied up with the reputation of Anton Mesmer, who did use the instrument to deepen trance-states in his subjects. People began to fear it, and the instrument became virtually extinct until 1982 or thereabouts.

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What if Ben Franklin had succeeded?

What if Ben Franklin had succeeded?

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