USAF playing cat/mouse with Iranian defenese

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2005-01-28 12:27am

Vympel, does Iran have SAM's capable of hitting US planes?

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-01-28 12:31am

My tentative answer would be maybe- I don't know if Iran has purchased any S-300P system variants from Russia, I've heard some rumours in the past, but even if not, they still have US SAMs at their disposal (HAWK mostly- they've almost certainly modified them beyond recognition, given other feats of the small Iranian defense industry) and more importantly, they somehow have kept a few of their F-14 Tomcats operational. Whether they'll risk them in combat against superior US aircraft is another matter though.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2005-01-28 02:39am

But I dont think they have Phoenix missiles for these Tomcats. Could they rig the Tomcat's systems to fire Russian made AAMs ?

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-01-28 04:21am

The Shadow wrote:But I dont think they have Phoenix missiles for these Tomcats. Could they rig the Tomcat's systems to fire Russian made AAMs ?

They do, actually- apparently that they couldn't use their Phoenix stocks because of sabotage was either a myth or simply no longer true to their own hard work. They haven't rigged them to fire any Russian AAMs, to my knowledge. They have rigged them to fire HAWKs, though ... I saw a picture of that.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-01-28 04:56am

Wait a year, if Bush doesn't get his head on, I wonder if we might see the first FA-22's in action. Its not impossible that the USAF might use it in some limited ways against Iran. Its an enemy that is going to be much harder then Iraq to dominate but not really a first grade air defence system, kind of a live fire test without too much risk for the USAF to show how kool it is....

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-01-28 05:08am

Yeah, I can see them just itching to use it, the USAF would certainly love to kill a USN fighter with it, though it's not a great christening, killing your own types.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-01-28 05:33am

Vympel wrote:Yeah, I can see them just itching to use it, the USAF would certainly love to kill a USN fighter with it, though it's not a great christening, killing your own types.

Their jubilation's gonna last until some stupid optically guided SA-3 gets lucky

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2005-01-28 07:41am

Frankly, I'm not surprised. General war or a conflict with Iran was inevitable once we invaded Iraq. It means the administration is serious about the "Axis of Evil." Now the most formidable foe spelled out by the administration is isolated. Divide and conquer. Bush didn't lie about this at least.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2005-01-28 09:31am

PFC Brungardt wrote:Frankly, I'm not surprised. General war or a conflict with Iran was inevitable once we invaded Iraq. It means the administration is serious about the "Axis of Evil." Now the most formidable foe spelled out by the administration is isolated. Divide and conquer. Bush didn't lie about this at least.

Only if you accept this White House's cartoon worldview as valid.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-01-28 09:59am

Vympel wrote:
The Shadow wrote:But I dont think they have Phoenix missiles for these Tomcats. Could they rig the Tomcat's systems to fire Russian made AAMs ?
They do, actually- apparently that they couldn't use their Phoenix stocks because of sabotage was either a myth or simply no longer true to their own hard work. They haven't rigged them to fire any Russian AAMs, to my knowledge. They have rigged them to fire HAWKs, though ... I saw a picture of that.

Waitaminnit! The Hawk's a big motherfucker of a SAM, right? How the fuck do you rig that thing to fire off of a plane?

If some of the more knowledgeable around here could advise regarding this...?

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2005-01-28 10:02am

Vympel - do you have a source for that remark about the PHOENIX?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2005-01-28 10:08am

PFC Brungardt wrote:Frankly, I'm not surprised. General war or a conflict with Iran was inevitable once we invaded Iraq. It means the administration is serious about the "Axis of Evil." Now the most formidable foe spelled out by the administration is isolated. Divide and conquer. Bush didn't lie about this at least.

The former Axis of Weavels wasn't all that allied with each other. So "divide and conquer" is kinda moot...

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2005-01-28 10:12am

Patrick Degan wrote:Only if you accept this White House's cartoon worldview as valid.

Meh, Bush takes himself seriously enough, occupies the Oval Office, and Republicans own the Congress.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2005-01-28 10:18am

Elheru Aran wrote:Waitaminnit! The Hawk's a big motherfucker of a SAM, right? How the fuck do you rig that thing to fire off of a plane?

The HAWK is not that big as far as SAMs go, at least not when compared to such monsters as the SA-4 and Nike-Hercules. It's only slightly bigger than the Pheonix AAM the F-14 was originally designed to carry. The HAWK is 3.81m long and has a launch weight of 635kg: the AIM-54A Pheonix is 3.9m long and has a launch weight of 454kg.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-01-28 10:29am

Ma Deuce wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:Waitaminnit! The Hawk's a big motherfucker of a SAM, right? How the fuck do you rig that thing to fire off of a plane?
The HAWK is not that big as far as SAMs go, at least not when compared to such monsters as the SA-4 and Nike-Hercules. It's only slightly bigger than the Pheonix AAM the F-14 was originally designed to carry. The HAWK is 3.81m long and has a launch weight of 635kg: the AIM-54A Pheonix is 3.9m long and has a launch weight of 454kg.

I remember it being pretty big... *shrugs* I guess it could work. I'd say the guidance system's probably a tad iffy, though, considering its age....

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2005-01-28 10:30am

Heck, the USN has fielded anti-radiation versions of the Standard SAM on their aircraft (Standard ARM) and that's one big missile -- 4.57 meters long, 620 kg in mass.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2005-01-28 12:48pm

The air-modified Hawks should only be capable of SARH right?

The_Last_Rebel · Post by **The_Last_Rebel** » 2005-01-28 09:17pm

Why invade? Just bomb the hell out of the nuclear facilities as often as necessary from Deigo Garcia. It would give the SAC bomber crews some good experience.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2005-01-28 09:21pm

kheegan wrote:The air-modified Hawks should only be capable of SARH right?

1960s vintage Hawks could intercept IRBMs, so I could actually imagine the Iranians employing Hawk-equipped F-14s to intercept cruise missiles (IIRC they have also jury-rigged some impressive downward-scan radars on those F-14s to use them as AWACS planes, so the idea that they could track and engage cruise missiles is perhaps not far-fetched).

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-01-29 07:18am

is there any legit reason no to shoot these air space violating aircrafts down? i mean a reson besides more US agression.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2005-01-29 09:35am

salm wrote:is there any legit reason no to shoot these air space violating aircrafts down? i mean a reson besides more US agression.

Sure the Iranians have a right to shoot down any foreign aircraft violiating their sovereign airspace without permission, or at least try, which is precisly what the USAF seems to want them to do, to goad the Iranians into switching on their radars so the USAF can have a look at the specific signature of each radar set (of particular interest would be the fire-control radars for SAM sites)...

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-01-29 09:56am

Axis Kast wrote:Vympel - do you have a source for that remark about the PHOENIX?

The guys at www.acig.org have made it pretty much their mission in life to catalog the achievements/status of the more obscure AFs like Iran- their forum is usually the place to go, I'm sure I read it there. Tom Cooper of ACIG (admin of the forum) has co-authored two books about Iran- one about their Tomcats specificially and one about the air war in general terms.

Of course, whether Iran still has any Phoenix AAMs in their stocks is an open question- we know they used them against Iraq though.

Ah, found it: Link to the AIM-54 Phoenix thread

Tom Cooper wrote:It - sadly - remains widely unknown that Iranians used a high number of AIM-54 during the war with Iraq, scoring a large number of kills, all of them against targets like MiG-21s, Su-20/22s, Mirage F.1EQ or even MiG-25, many of which maneuvered hard, while others were covered by modern and powerfull French- and Soviet-made ECM systems, very often capable to break the lock-on of AWG-9. All this without any technical-, instructional- or spare-parts support from the USA.

I wish I could find the picture of the HAWK underslung under an Iranian F-14 (or was it another type of fighter?) but my memory is foggy.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2005-01-29 10:23am

Well, there was a big scandal a while back in my area about embargo violations...

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2005-01-29 10:54am

If the Iranian AF had any AIM-54s left, it would be interesting to see how the USAF will deal with it....the AIM-54 has more than double the max range of AIM-120, so the Iranians get the first shot, unless the USAF manages to deploy F-22s or destroy the F-14s on the ground first....