D20 making violent actions hurt

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2004-11-18 02:09pm

an interesting article on how to tone violence down oin most D20 games

http://www.strike-to-stun.com/WFRP/3WFRPd20.htm

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-11-18 02:14pm

One: It doesn't seem to be talking about how to tone down violence at all.

Secondly:

If we use the new unarmed combat rules from Restless Dead or Apocrypha Now, they have a -20 penalty to their Weapon skill, so now they hit each other only on a 13 or less.

How old is this, anyway?

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2004-11-18 02:25pm

That was talking about old school WFRP. So <i>very</i> old.

The body of the text is about how to make parties run screaming when things turn ugly by including a lot of instant death. Not about toning down combat, just about making players think twice about charging into it.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-11-18 02:56pm

I will say that one of the reasons I went with a Shadow Run campaign was due to my players being a bit to eager to to rush into violence. Not that they've slowed down or anything.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-11-18 04:34pm

D20 will always be a system with distorted consequences no matter what you do to it. You would have to gut and rebuild the entire combat system in order for combat to be more lethal. Instead what I have seen people do is build a patchwork of cumbersome house rules to try to get d20 to behave more realistically. What people come up with may fix the problem, but it does so by breaking other things or by being very complicated and hard to remember, which undermines the sole benefit d20 has over other gaming systems.

This proposed solution is the former. It works by breaking other things. It fixes the problem of combat not being lethal enough by making it too lethal. The damage system is designed to go hand in hand with the hit point system. If you set HP equal to Constitution (as this article would suggest) or find other ways of drastically reducing it, then no one can take a single hit from the high amounts of damage most fighter-types are capable of dishing out. If you make all critical hits lethal, people will take feats giving them high threat ranges, and kill creatures that they should have no chance against in short order. What about the fact that if damage were made realistic, it would be too easy to make the to-hit roll, especially if armor made someone easier to hit instead of harder? You'd have to kludge together a rule for that. What about the fact that some spells now do far too much damage? You'd have to re-do them all.

There is simply no way to fix the poor combat outcomes of d20. A simple solution will break everything else, and a complete solution will be a kludgy, cumbersome mess.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2004-11-18 05:36pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote: There is simply no way to fix the poor combat outcomes of d20. A simple solution will break everything else, and a complete solution will be a kludgy, cumbersome mess.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-11-18 05:37pm

The best games are those in which the G/DM tells party members that they suddenly drop dead without any warning...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-11-18 05:40pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The best games are those in which the G/DM tells party members that they suddenly drop dead without any warning...

Not when you have Beefer as DM.

And besides, you can still do that in d20. Allow me to demonstrate.

"Rocks fall. Everyone dies."

"But we're in the middle of an open plain!"

"Rocks fall. Everyone dies."

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-11-18 06:07pm

Nah, that has no style.

*DM points to munchkin fuck of the group* "You, your character suddenly has a fatal brain aneurism and dies. You can't roll initiative."

"But I-"

"You're dead! And your team members split your belongings up amongst themselves and cut up your corpse for food."

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-11-18 06:24pm

Eat the munchkin? Do you hate your players or something Spanky? I mean what did they do wrong?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-11-18 06:45pm

No, I just find the subject of canibalism to be somewhat amusing.

Either that or they could use his corpse for the occasional sexual relief, sort of like a cum rag. You know, keep him warm by the fire, drag him out into the bushes...

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-11-18 08:07pm

Do the military uses of the corpse escape you? It's the perfect bait to lure monsters to their doom with some work (gotta keep it warm to lure those Drow you know).

Or has a blunt weapon (Yes I've done it.) Or if you got a friendly Necro, the body is the trap!

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-11-18 08:20pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No, I just find the subject of canibalism to be somewhat amusing.

Either that or they could use his corpse for the occasional sexual relief, sort of like a cum rag. You know, keep him warm by the fire, drag him out into the bushes...

Hehe, that reminds me of a cmpaign we did... we were in this dungeon with plenty of food, but we happen across this pot full of human stew....

What our group did, is we dont use hitpoints... at all. we use called shots, and an opposed defense roll.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-18 10:13pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:This proposed solution is the former. It works by breaking other things. It fixes the problem of combat not being lethal enough by making it too lethal.

So let me get this straight: D20 doesn't reflect damage in realistic lethality, so it sucks. When they fix it, it still sucks. That about right?

The damage system is designed to go hand in hand with the hit point system. If you set HP equal to Constitution (as this article would suggest) or find other ways of drastically reducing it, then no one can take a single hit from the high amounts of damage most fighter-types are capable of dishing out.

Star Wars D20 and Traveller D20 use this system, and guess what: combat is supposed to be deadly. Especially in the latter game system, which was designed for role players, not 'roll players'.

If you make all critical hits lethal, people will take feats giving them high threat ranges,

Yes, they will. No different from getting a magic +5 vorpal sword of ultimate slayage.

and kill creatures that they should have no chance against in short order.

Not really. Just because the threat range has increased doesn't mean it's going to end fights automatically.

What about the fact that if damage were made realistic, it would be too easy to make the to-hit roll, especially if armor made someone easier to hit instead of harder? You'd have to kludge together a rule for that. What about the fact that some spells now do far too much damage? You'd have to re-do them all.

If we're talking D&D D20, you'd be right. Introducing the wound/vitality system into it needs a major restructuring of the rules. But some D20 systems were built up WITH this new hitpoint system in place.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-11-18 10:33pm

Stofsk wrote:
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:This proposed solution is the former. It works by breaking other things. It fixes the problem of combat not being lethal enough by making it too lethal.
So let me get this straight: D20 doesn't reflect damage in realistic lethality, so it sucks. When they fix it, it still sucks. That about right?

Yes. It still sucks because it breaks the game.

The damage system is designed to go hand in hand with the hit point system. If you set HP equal to Constitution (as this article would suggest) or find other ways of drastically reducing it, then no one can take a single hit from the high amounts of damage most fighter-types are capable of dishing out.
Star Wars D20 and Traveller D20 use this system, and guess what: combat is supposed to be deadly. Especially in the latter game system, which was designed for role players, not 'roll players'.

I take it KOTOR is not faithful to Star Wars D20, then? Because combat was anything but lethal in that game. Besides KOTOR, I have no knowledge of either of those systems, but every attempt I have ever seen to make d20's combat system more realistic has followed one of the two patterns I outlined earlier.

If you make all critical hits lethal, people will take feats giving them high threat ranges,
Yes, they will. No different from getting a magic +5 vorpal sword of ultimate slayage.

Exactly. No different from that. You don't see the problem?

and kill creatures that they should have no chance against in short order.
Not really. Just because the threat range has increased doesn't mean it's going to end fights automatically.

If you have a rule that critical hits = instant death as the article suggested, then it does indeed mean that.

What about the fact that if damage were made realistic, it would be too easy to make the to-hit roll, especially if armor made someone easier to hit instead of harder? You'd have to kludge together a rule for that. What about the fact that some spells now do far too much damage? You'd have to re-do them all.
If we're talking D&D D20, you'd be right. Introducing the wound/vitality system into it needs a major restructuring of the rules. But some D20 systems were built up WITH this new hitpoint system in place.

I have not seen them, but I'd be astonished if the didn't fit one of these three patterns:

a. Broken and imbalanced
b. Disjointed and cumbersome
c. So different from D&D that it would be a stretch to even call them both part of the same system.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-11-18 10:56pm

Yet another reason why D6 rules and D20 blows.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-18 11:04pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I take it KOTOR is not faithful to Star Wars D20, then? Because combat was anything but lethal in that game. Besides KOTOR, I have no knowledge of either of those systems, but every attempt I have ever seen to make d20's combat system more realistic has followed one of the two patterns I outlined earlier.

Nope. KOTOR threw out things like: wound points, heavily damaging blaster pistols/rifles, other combat actions...

Exactly. No different from that. You don't see the problem?

Apparently not. But the problem you allude to comes from so called 'power gamers', who are always obnoxious. A guy who wants to role play a character might not take that feat you describe, and take something else because it fits his character more. Good for him. The power gamer will take that feat, and likely pick fights with everyone. He's not the sort of player who would be welcomed into my game.

If you have a rule that critical hits = instant death as the article suggested, then it does indeed mean that.

Ah. Well, fuck that rule. I actually didn't read the article.

Just to set the record straight: the SW D20 and T20 game systems don't have the 'critical hits = instant death'; there is a chance you can survive, and you can increase the chance by wearing armour. But critical hits are dangerous and cause heavy damage to you, which is as it should be.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2004-11-18 11:35pm

Stofsk wrote:
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I take it KOTOR is not faithful to Star Wars D20, then? Because combat was anything but lethal in that game. Besides KOTOR, I have no knowledge of either of those systems, but every attempt I have ever seen to make d20's combat system more realistic has followed one of the two patterns I outlined earlier.
Nope. KOTOR threw out things like: wound points, heavily damaging blaster pistols/rifles, other combat actions...

I see. Well then I have no context from which to argue about SW d20 or Traveller d20.

Exactly. No different from that. You don't see the problem?
Apparently not. But the problem you allude to comes from so called 'power gamers', who are always obnoxious. A guy who wants to role play a character might not take that feat you describe, and take something else because it fits his character more. Good for him. The power gamer will take that feat, and likely pick fights with everyone. He's not the sort of player who would be welcomed into my game.

It's the system that allows them to be power gamers. Frankly, I think the term is over-used, anyway. It's an attempt by D&D ostriches (meaning those with their hands in the sand) to marginalize anyone who uses the bone-stock rulebook to make powerful characters rather than admit that it's the game system that's the problem. I don't deny that powergamers exist, but I think the system encourages powergaming, and not everyone that receives that label deserves it.

If you have a rule that critical hits = instant death as the article suggested, then it does indeed mean that.
Ah. Well, fuck that rule. I actually didn't read the article.

Just to set the record straight: the SW D20 and T20 game systems don't have the 'critical hits = instant death'; there is a chance you can survive, and you can increase the chance by wearing armour. But critical hits are dangerous and cause heavy damage to you, which is as it should be.

And that would be the kludgy, cumbersome solution I was referring to. You can shore up one section of the house of cards that is D&D by knocking down another, or you can add so many cards that only your gaming group can make heads or tails of it. Either way, the result is even worse than stock D&D.