Vista any good?

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Resinence
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Post by Resinence »

Ok admittedly I got carried away with the bashing as I often do.
Do you have any idea how memory management works? Non used data gets paged to disk. All that fancy Aero stuff that lives in RAM? Gets paged. What do you think happens when you load up Crysis on your WindowsXP computer, alt-tab and load another memory heavy program?
While this helps, it doesn't handwave away the fact that aero uses 5x the memory of Beryl. And isn't going to be paged when you're doing anything but fullscreen applications that don't use the interface.
And, suprise, it doesn't. Most Vista benchmarks I've seen either show identical preformance, or near identical, with the key issue nearly ALWAYS being Graphic drivers. Do you realise that all the fancy stuff is paged to disk when games run?
While it's true vista does general work faster in some cases, better for gaming, it is not.

Image

I know it seems like nitpicking, but that 10-15% in performance can mean the difference between playable and frustrating in some of the games about to be released.
*snort*. I'll quote wikipedia simply because it's a nice compiliation and linking to several dozen MSDN articles on this would take too long.

EDIT:Part one,Part two and Part three of Mark Russinovich's cover of the Vista kernel. This is just barebones stuff.

EDIT2:Microsofts white paper on Kernel enhancements in Vista and Windows Server 2008,
And yet even with everything turned off it still fails to produce any noticeable performance improvement over XP and managing to be worse unless you're hardcore at Office and browsing the web, especially for gamers.
OSX gets a new incremental release every year, and I don't notice anyone saying it can be easily ran with 512MB, infact, everyone seems to say that throwing more RAM OSXs way is better.
Conceded, no one is going to argue that more RAM doesn't help performance.
Also, OSX is 'speeding up' due to moving more of the fancy animation effects onto the graphics card. It's still taking up more power, just in another peice of hardware.
This is one of the things I have a problem with, aero was promised to do the same thing for windows, yet CPU intensive tasks like file compression show no improvement at all.
New features require more RAM? Duh?
True, but why does aero use so much more memory than quartz extreme or beryl when it actually does less if not for sloppy coding.
Rolling Eyes You do realise the media DRM only goes into operation when shock, you're playing trusted content media? Do you imagine it's somehow insidiously running at all times and scanning your brainwaves for piracy? Rolling Eyes
Heh, I probably shouldn't have used "big brotherware", I don't actually believe that microsoft is reading my emails etc. I just dislike archaic DRM schemes in general.
Basically, if the next version of the program offers MORE then the previous version, then suprise, it demands higher requirments.
This isn't always true, I find it hard to believe that the old windows code was so perfect that they couldn't improve it at all to try and make up for resources lost to new features. Though they managed to break even in a few areas and it's never more than 5-10% performance loss, I guess thats something to commend.
And thats Vista's fault how? If you have your pageFile/swap partition on the same drive as the game, you would expect there to be I/O competition. Infact, with Vista's priorities I/O you'd expect this to go down.
Most that loss would be at startup or alt-tab. As the game is running normally, it shouldn't make a difference.
Conceded.
Also, tangent: you should put your page file on the most used partition of the least used disk, rather than giving it its own partition. That way, the drive heads have less seek time to get back and forth from it and your data.
I don't have my page file on the same disk as my software/OS, one of the first thing gamers do is move it of course.
Ridiculous. I, not e. Anyway, yeah, that would be ridiculous. Of course it can have complaints, but those complaints also aren't immune to counter arguments. Its resource usage is probably bigger, sure, but it also has a lot more to offer, and there are more to offer: RAM is pretty cheap, and like we said, in that case, it gets out of the way when not being used thanks to virtual memory, so in practice, it shouldn't be a big deal at all.
Sometimes I don't realise that I'm in a minority that prefers an extremely minimal system that can be extended with what I want later on. Rather than a system that has everything I want (as well as what I don't want), but I never have to worry about setting everthing up.
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General Zod
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Post by General Zod »

Resinence wrote:
While this helps, it doesn't handwave away the fact that aero uses 5x the memory of Beryl. And isn't going to be paged when you're doing anything but fullscreen applications that don't use the interface.
Then don't use Aero? It's a purely optional feature anyways.
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Vendetta
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Post by Vendetta »

It's also pretty fugly, all things considered..
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Post by Enigma »

Is Vista just a stop gap for the next Windows (I hear it is supposed to come out in '09)? In other words Vista=ME?
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Post by InnocentBystander »

Vendetta wrote:It's also pretty fugly, all things considered..
Its not bad; better than Mac OS, if you ask me.
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Post by Vendetta »

InnocentBystander wrote:
Vendetta wrote:It's also pretty fugly, all things considered..
Its not bad; better than Mac OS, if you ask me.
You're clearly fucking blind then. Those smoked glass window borders, which are not only fucking enormous, taking up masses of desktop space for a "look what I can do" feature (and can't be turned off without disabling Aero entirely, unlike the window flash in OSX), but also clash horribly with almost anything behind them, being that sort of institutional puke green that they are.

Seriously, Vista only looks nicer than Mac OS if you turn the fucking monitor off.
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Post by Ariphaos »

Enigma wrote:Can't wait. XP keeps crashing and stalling during setup. That latest stop error was from "DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL", 0x000000D1
There should be four numbers after that. Could tell more from them, but seriously, if you're getting this from setup, Vista will tell you the same thing. It's often faulty RAM but in theory any device in your system could be the culprit, depending on exactly when and where it crashed.
Is Vista just a stop gap for the next Windows (I hear it is supposed to come out in '09)? In other words Vista=ME?
XP is NT 5.1, where Win2K was NT 5.0. Vista is 6.0. Depends on how you take it, I suppose.
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Post by InnocentBystander »

Vendetta wrote:
InnocentBystander wrote:
Vendetta wrote:It's also pretty fugly, all things considered..
Its not bad; better than Mac OS, if you ask me.
You're clearly fucking blind then. Those smoked glass window borders, which are not only fucking enormous, taking up masses of desktop space for a "look what I can do" feature (and can't be turned off without disabling Aero entirely, unlike the window flash in OSX), but also clash horribly with almost anything behind them, being that sort of institutional puke green that they are.

Seriously, Vista only looks nicer than Mac OS if you turn the fucking monitor off.
It's purely a matter of taste. I perfer the modular look of vista over mac OS, and I admit to being somewhat partial to its glossy look. Sorry if you don't agree.
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Post by Glocksman »

After having tried it again on my laptop, I went back to XP for a second time.
The first time I put it on, I went back because of immature video drivers and buggy printing.

This time, the video drivers improved, but even on a fully patched and up to date setup, I still had the printing issue.
The print issue is simply this; if I run a print job and then shut the machine down after it's over, the job fucking repeats itself when I reboot the laptop.
The printer involved is an old Laserjet 1200 using plain jane PCL 6 drivers that aren't 'host based'.

Can you imagine my 'WTF?' moment the first time it did this and my printer sprang to life after firing up my laptop?

Thank God for Acronis drive imaging.
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Post by General Zod »

Glocksman wrote:After having tried it again on my laptop, I went back to XP for a second time.
The first time I put it on, I went back because of immature video drivers and buggy printing.

This time, the video drivers improved, but even on a fully patched and up to date setup, I still had the printing issue.
The print issue is simply this; if I run a print job and then shut the machine down after it's over, the job fucking repeats itself when I reboot the laptop.
The printer involved is an old Laserjet 1200 using plain jane PCL 6 drivers that aren't 'host based'.

Can you imagine my 'WTF?' moment the first time it did this and my printer sprang to life after firing up my laptop?

Thank God for Acronis drive imaging.
If the equipment is old enough then there'd be no profit motive to develop drivers for it. Doesn't seem so much like a valid complaint against the OS as all new OSs will have incompatible driver issues with old hardware. :P
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Post by Glocksman »

The PCL 6 driver is XP, true, but MS said that most (host based drivers are the main exception) XP drivers will work with no issue in Vista.
The LJ1200 is not host based.
It installed no problem and it didn't even pop up with a 'this driver is not for Vista' warning.
IIRC, when I installed Vista for a 30 day 'preview' on my desktop machine it did the same thing with the built in PCL 5 driver.

I think it has something to do with how it won't immediately delete the print spool after completion of a print job.
Surely you've noticed that the 'printers' icon stays in the system tray for a little bit after the printjob is done, and the job still shows 'printing' despite you holding the printout in your hand. :roll:

There's a lot to like about Vista, but like I've said before I have the feeling I'm working with a beta RC instead of a 5 month old shipping OS.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

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Post by Enigma »

Xeriar wrote:
Enigma wrote:Can't wait. XP keeps crashing and stalling during setup. That latest stop error was from "DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL", 0x000000D1
There should be four numbers after that. Could tell more from them, but seriously, if you're getting this from setup, Vista will tell you the same thing. It's often faulty RAM but in theory any device in your system could be the culprit, depending on exactly when and where it crashed.
Is Vista just a stop gap for the next Windows (I hear it is supposed to come out in '09)? In other words Vista=ME?
XP is NT 5.1, where Win2K was NT 5.0. Vista is 6.0. Depends on how you take it, I suppose.
That is ok I found out it was bad RAM.
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