I'm working on a mod

[defanatic]

Hey guys

I'm currently working on a mod for C&C Generals. It's a total conversion, and I've done a decent amount of the coding (enough now that I'm not going to throw my arms up in the air and give up).

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has criticism, pointers, or anything else to say on it.

All the information is on this blog, which I currently update once a week with information on it, and various thoughts of my own on it.

Link is here.

The blog is very tldr, and penmanship is poor.

[Samuel]

First, a disclamer- I am not really qualified to critique games. Maybe porno games, but strategy games, not so much.

First off, are you sure it is a good idea to have each group a specific team? It means you can't adapt during the game.

Also, the other two factions have their economies based around military units, effectively getting a two-for-one deal when they spend their money.

The exception is the anti-air infantry, which are the only anti-air unit that Rush has access to.

Rush lacks planes and flak vehicles, correct? That is... problematic. Is there any scud weaponary or choopers in the game, because if there is, they would crush this player. Or even worse, an anthrax chopper... okay, that might be cool enough to add.

However, an upgrade can be acquired that enable the light tank to gain a lot of "frontload" damage, that is damage that is delivered up front, although it gains little "DPS", which is average damage per second.

How is this done? Is it counted as a special ability with a cool down time?

The last ground vehicle that Rush has access to is the Rush IFV, which can transport two infantry (upgradeable to three), and these infantry can shoot out. The vehicle is fast and lightly armoured, so it effectively allows Rush to have fast artillery, or fast AA for supporting the troops.

Well, that deals with the copter issue. To reduce micro, you migh consider giving the player the option of building these units with infantry inside.

Also, only 8 units? Easier to balance, but it seems sparce.

The structure generates money over time (presumably from the ether).

No, from "protection money" paid by the owners.

They only get money (and General's Points) through killing. You kill an enemy unit, you get money equal to the value of the target. This is the only way to get money, is by killing.

What happens with multiple stealth players? There is a limited resource pool that gets passed around...

Against a human player, though, their imagination often gets in the way of the idea of a perfect defensive line. Thus, turtling is much less popular than attacking and rushing.

You phrased it badly. What happens is a human player uses artillary and cracks the fragile shell to scoop out the delicious insides.

The main problem I see is a simple one- the balance for the groups is going to depend heavily upon the maps avaible to play on.

When will it be up?

[defanatic]

How is this done? Is it counted as a special ability with a cool down time?

Done by adding another weapon which does lots of damage, but has a very poor reload time. Would having it as an ability that you have to actively use be better, or should it be used simply by attacking?

Well, that deals with the copter issue. To reduce micro, you migh consider giving the player the option of building these units with infantry inside.

That did give me a bit of food for thought, but that does open up a bit of rortability as people would be able to build infantry on the front line and evacuate them continuously.

Also, only 8 units? Easier to balance, but it seems sparce.

Well, those units can switch weapons and what-have-you, so they fill more roles than any single one. The other two teams have more units each.

No, from "protection money" paid by the owners.

I haven't really thought of fluff reasons why things should be, just the way things should be to remain interesting. That's a fun one, though.

What happens with multiple stealth players? There is a limited resource pool that gets passed around...

Haha. Yeah, as players get eliminated, the remaining ones get stronger and stronger. Everything in the stealth team is able to kill stuff, so it's fairly difficult to stalemate. But I did think about this, and Stealth does have more readily available and versatile stealth detection than the other two teams.

You phrased it badly. What happens is a human player uses artillary and cracks the fragile shell to scoop out the delicious insides.

Yeah. There are counters to that, but I would like to hammer the point that you can't turtle indefinitely to victory.

The main problem I see is a simple one- the balance for the groups is going to depend heavily upon the maps avaible to play on.

When will it be up?

Balance will definitely be very weird, especially given how different the teams are. Currently, in test games (with an incomplete mod, so obviously nothing to go by), combat happens around a minute into the game.

It will be up in a while, as I have done a decent amount of coding, but not enough to be near releasable. I'm going to say a few months or so, but it's too early to project.

[Samuel]

Done by adding another weapon which does lots of damage, but has a very poor reload time. Would having it as an ability that you have to actively use be better, or should it be used simply by attacking?

I'm not a programer- I was just curious.

It will be up in a while, as I have done a decent amount of coding, but not enough to be near releasable. I'm going to say a few months or so, but it's too early to project.

Well, O guess I have to wait. Try to make sure it doesn't obverwrite other mods though.

[D.Turtle]

Done by adding another weapon which does lots of damage, but has a very poor reload time. Would having it as an ability that you have to actively use be better, or should it be used simply by attacking?

The best solution would be to make it toggable so that it either auto-shoots, or only if you press the button - the best of both worlds.

And the idea sounds interesting. And probably will be quite a bitch to balance.

[Samuel]

I wonder, could you make a steam roller faction?

Money source- vehicles. Every vehicle has the ability to produce cash in a manner similar to Rise of the Reds Arms Dealers.

Does not have a builder unit- rather they take over civilian buildings and convert them into their own.

Also, I took a look at some other proposed mods and one had an interesting concept- units that gain veterancy buff other near by units. It would be a useful thing to give the stealth side.

[defanatic]

Well, turtle is intended to be the steamroller faction, as it's sort of one of those things people do if they turtle. Either build up superweapons to take out the enemy, or steamroll.

Obviously the teams are not intended to be only their namesakes, but also multiple other things as well. The game should be reasonably balanced through-out, the exception being with turtle in the extreme late game running out of resources. So Rush doesn't just Rush, but also has wide area map control. Turtle doesn't just turtle, but can steamroll and do very heavy-handed attacks. Stealth isn't just sneaky, it is also ambush and mind games (e.g. disguising your AA vehicles as AT vehicles, making sure your opponent gets a good look at them before he send out some aircraft to deal with the threat).

But you could do that, feasibly with the engine. In fact, you can attach the money making module to whatever you like. For instance, you could make it so that whenever you shoot an AA missile, that missile generates $1/second as long as it is in the air, or something equally convoluted and silly.

The taking over civilian buildings thing is a bit harder. Kinda like the company of heroes forward barracks thing...

Veterancy for other units may be a bit difficult (ala Act of War: High Treason), but it would be possible to give other units a frenzy buff of sorts only if the giving unit is a veteran.

[Samuel]

But you could do that, feasibly with the engine. In fact, you can attach the money making module to whatever you like. For instance, you could make it so that whenever you shoot an AA missile, that missile generates $1/second as long as it is in the air, or something equally convoluted and silly.

We will bomb them... with cash!

Sorry. You are right- steamroller is contained within Turtle. I guess making all one sides units produce funds would be a bit unbalanced in the end game when they achieve exponential growth.

How does veterancy work in the game? I know it has 3 levels- can you alter it so there is more and change its effects?

[defanatic]

I believe you can have various effects triggered by veterancy, although the amount of health gained and damage increases are global.

And I am trying to avoid exponential economies. It's one of the things from generals that I didn't really like (the others including proliferance of stealth detection, AA, insta-clearing garrisons, unavoidable free support abilities etc.).

Technically, veterancy has four levels, including level0, which is your standard rookie drone. I should really consider increasing the amount of effort it takes to increase units' level, because currently they do it very quickly.

[D.Turtle]

One thing you will probably need to do is make neutral building indestructible and only be damaged and thereby be useless for some time before being reactivated. Otherwise it would be quite easy to permanently destroy the economy of the rusher - without him being able to stop it.

[Teleros]

Two suggestions...

1. Give each faction some kind of regular income for very late in the game. The last thing you want as any faction is to be stuck there at the end of a (very) long game with no cash. This would also make it easier on the Turtle faction if they screw up - if you only have $50k to spend (for example), then every failed attack will cost. Similarly, if the Rush faction have their neutral buildings destroyed, they're in trouble too.
Obviously however it's implemented it'll have to be a very late game option, but perhaps not that expensive (perhaps like the Tier 4 vehicle upgrades in DoW, but 10% of the cost). Thus if it's needed, players can get it out even if their economy isn't looking too hot currently.

2. For the mutually exclusive Turtle upgrades, can you use the US tank drone logic? They're mutually exclusive unless / until shot down.

[defanatic]

The need for a permanent economy should become apparent with playing. Most games shouldn't run down, hopefully.

For the civilian buildings, I could implement some sort of invisible GLA hole style mechanic, so you need to continually deny their economy, or (for the lazy man) take those buildings yourself, and thus give incentive to take the building yourself.

For Turtle, I was considering a support ability that dropped in supply packages. This would stop the economy from being exponential. Having something attached to a global timer is better than attaching it directly to a structure that you could build a lot. Or possibly tie it to the Turtle upgrade structure, of which you may build one. But it appears pretty early in the game, so maybe make it the last upgrade. I wonder what could tie in with it to be an alternate very-late-game upgrade. Suggestions?

And I managed to get the upgrade to work. Mostly, the problem was stopping the player from getting the second upgrade. If they got the second upgrade, they'd have lost the money, but it wouldn't have any effect. And I rather like this, since it potentially gives me the opportunity for an infinite research tree.