DoW II retribution beta

[xthetenth]

Erm, I'd say it extremely accurate actually. But people are moaning because it automagically wipes setup teams (no mention of hitting the retreat button obviously) and bunkers (it's a goddamn huge rocket, what do you expect?) and neatly blows up big blobs of units.

Then they're just whiny and haven't been thinking about it. I haven't seen it wipe a squad without burning the whole allotment of missiles. In contrast, an assault squad can tear the face off a set up team merrily and continue to try and roll the firing line. Or the equivalent for the other non-nid races, the dreadnaught, can go tearing in and screw over an army on its own if the enemy isn't careful, and just blowing up one heavy weapon squad pales in comparison. I mean really, I'm pretty sure that a dreadnaught will make it through to charge a lascannon team and can beat things to a pulp all while soaking a bunch of fire. A manticore is really probably the least capable in that role because it has similar hitting power without the ability to stick around or soak fire.

[Shinova]

Manticore is really hit or miss. Had noise marine squad survive more than six barrages over the course of the game, while in another one a leveled, tooled-out CSM squad got annihilated from a single missile.

[xthetenth]

Manticore is really hit or miss. Had noise marine squad survive more than six barrages over the course of the game, while in another one a leveled, tooled-out CSM squad got annihilated from a single missile.

Frankly I think they should change it, maybe to a bit more AoE, less damage and less accuracy, so you know you're going to hit something, but that you're not going to be able to concentrate firepower on a single squad to wipe it, so just similar damage to a middling to poor dreadnaught attack.

[Meest]

I made the mistake of trying a DoW2 mod in the same style as one for part 1, a codex edition. It did the same thing, makes vanilla play terrible, so many extra units/wargear and I like the changes in armor/weapon rules and ups the population caps. Just based on MP I wouldn't get it so hoping campaign is fleshed out enough, the IG is cool but not enough.

[Hawkwings]

The problem with trying to wipe a squad with the manticore is that it throws them. Of course if you're aiming for a target that can't be thrown then it's great, but it typically doesn't do much damage to them. I use the manticore for softening up big blobs of units before sending my guys in, or for covering a retreat, or for scaring the enemy (assuming he notices the targeting indicator).

[xthetenth]

The problem with trying to wipe a squad with the manticore is that it throws them. Of course if you're aiming for a target that can't be thrown then it's great, but it typically doesn't do much damage to them. I use the manticore for softening up big blobs of units before sending my guys in, or for covering a retreat, or for scaring the enemy (assuming he notices the targeting indicator).

Yeah, it's very hit or miss if you're trying to hammer one squad. It can be done but that's basically the entire missile load and some careful aim, and considering the reload, that's it's entire contribution to the battle. I tend to massively prefer stuff like ogryns because they actually stick around to deliver their hurt instead of the manticore delivering some underwhelming pain before being done.

[Hawkwings]

This just in: I suck at this game. I can't win 1v1 to save my life, and I only do marginally better in 3v3 because I have teammates to do all the heavy lifting for me. Also, apparently I play a different game than everyone else because when I use "totally op" units and tactics I still lose. Maybe I should stop playing IG?

I did successfully spot a Manticore strike incoming on my heavy weapons team though, and retreat them. They made it back to base and reinforced. Still lost that match.

[xthetenth]

Who were you playing with? If you were playing against space marines, that's no shame, space marines brutalize IG if the guard don't really know what they're doing. Hooray for nothing that isn't a hideously vulnerable to assault marines heavy weapons squad or a very late T1 catachans squad that still is barely on even ground being able to actually hurt a tactical squad. Other than marines, the guard is pretty competent though.

[Commander 598]

News: Calls for Manticore nerf turning to Calls for Manticore removal. Clint Tasker, who I seem to recall being mocked quite a bit by the community for his BAD IDEAS on the subject of balancing, says there is no problem.

[Serafina]

Well, as long as they replace it with Deathstrike Missile systems instead

[HMS Sophia]

See, thats just silly... what map would ever need intercontinental range missiles... apart from all of them...

[xthetenth]

News: Calls for Manticore nerf turning to Calls for Manticore removal. Clint Tasker, who I seem to recall being mocked quite a bit by the community for his BAD IDEAS on the subject of balancing, says there is no problem.

So what's the replacement people want, or are they just going to leave the Guard nothing as a punchy t2 vehicle with decent capability against everything?

[Hawkwings]

It's typical whine-a-lot-and-don't-offer-a-solution talk. I honestly liked the Basilisk from DoW1 a lot better, but I make do.

In other news, I seem to be getting marginally better at this game. Or maybe I've just been getting terrible opponents?

[xthetenth]

It's typical whine-a-lot-and-don't-offer-a-solution talk.

Oh how I hate those folks. I hope Relic doesn't listen to those idiots, they probably haven't even played guard more than once. If you're suggesting a change, you absolutely need to suggest an alternative, because the entire point is changing it so there needs to be a better alternative to change it to, and partly so they can tell whether you're talking out of your ass. I don't care too much because ogryns are more my style though.

[Commander 598]

I offer alternatives...in fact, I keep coming up with more.

1. Basilisk
2. Griffon
3. Mortar Teams
4. [DoW1]Whirlwind Manticore
5. Or just make the damn thing slightly less microy and less accurate (They're arguably a function of each other). You can even keep your stupid micro ability.

If you must an AV replacement give the Guardsmen squads a missile launcher. If that presumably never completely Steel Legion mod for DoW1 vanilla can pull it off I think RELIC ENTERTAINMENT can manage it.

My problem with it has nothing to do with it's firepower (To which I suggested make it less accurate so it doesn't alpha a target 4x over all the time, but apparently that's an even worse idea than making an already largely useless unit take longer to be not useless), it should have never been in the first place for numerous reasons. All I'm saying is that it was a bad choice to put in, it was badly implemented, and now it's badly defended. Of course, when you get down to it, all anyone wants is for a notoriously bad balancer to say something other than "EVERYTHING IS FINE HERE." when plenty of people are finding fault with it...before it's even been released.

Anyway, it's not my only problem with Retribution, they all appear to be clear cases of shoddy work though. Maybe when it's actually released the voice work will actually be something worth noting, maybe they'll have done something to make me view half of the Guard's units as something other than a waste of time and resources, maybe the Guardsmen models will actually be at least as good as their NPC predecessors, and maybe the heavily advertised multi-faction campaign won't just be a copypaste of every complaint about DC's campaign.
Spoiler

No hope.

Thus far the only thing Retribution has inspired me to do is reinstall DC...but I met them halfway and reinstalled CR...and then installed the Codex Edition mod on top of it. It's been a lot more fun.

[xthetenth]

I think that most of those suggestions are going to run into similar complaints just because they're artillery and somehow things that can strike without being struck themselves instantly triggers the whining not fair impulse in people even if they have more useful stuff. One thing that might actually work is a devil dog. It'd provide a somewhat similar role to the dreadnaughts everybody else gets, with enough aoe with the main gun and hull flamer that it can mess with infantry and enough meltay goodness to provide something capable of fighting the dreads. Hmm. I actually like that idea and it doesn't give everyone a target to nerf into oblivion because they somehow think it's unfair that they get to shoot at an army missing one of its major units on the firing line and without an armored unit to tie down enemies in their front line.

Anyway, it's not my only problem with Retribution, they all appear to be clear cases of shoddy work though. Maybe when it's actually released the voice work will actually be something worth noting, maybe they'll have done something to make me view half of the Guard's units as something other than a waste of time and resources, maybe the Guardsmen models will actually be at least as good as their NPC predecessors, and maybe the heavily advertised multi-faction campaign won't just be a copypaste of every complaint about DC's campaign.

The voice work didn't seem bad to me, but tastes vary. The guardsmen models didn't really seem all that bad either, but I'm really wondering which units you consider a waste of time and resources. I'd say that all the tier 1 units are relatively useful, the stormies are debatable, the chimaera is useful, the manticore is bad but not useless, the ogryns are great, the russ is great and the baneblade is great. 2 units I don't consider worthwhile is actually about average to low for me if I haven't forgotten one.

[Molyneux]

I need to give the beta a shot...but I really want to finish DoWII first.

[Wing Commander MAD]

I think that most of those suggestions are going to run into similar complaints just because they're artillery and somehow things that can strike without being struck themselves instantly triggers the whining not fair impulse in people even if they have more useful stuff. One thing that might actually work is a devil dog. It'd provide a somewhat similar role to the dreadnaughts everybody else gets, with enough aoe with the main gun and hull flamer that it can mess with infantry and enough meltay goodness to provide something capable of fighting the dreads. Hmm. I actually like that idea and it doesn't give everyone a target to nerf into oblivion because they somehow think it's unfair that they get to shoot at an army missing one of its major units on the firing line and without an armored unit to tie down enemies in their front line.

Anyway, it's not my only problem with Retribution, they all appear to be clear cases of shoddy work though. Maybe when it's actually released the voice work will actually be something worth noting, maybe they'll have done something to make me view half of the Guard's units as something other than a waste of time and resources, maybe the Guardsmen models will actually be at least as good as their NPC predecessors, and maybe the heavily advertised multi-faction campaign won't just be a copypaste of every complaint about DC's campaign.

The voice work didn't seem bad to me, but tastes vary. The guardsmen models didn't really seem all that bad either, but I'm really wondering which units you consider a waste of time and resources. I'd say that all the tier 1 units are relatively useful, the stormies are debatable, the chimaera is useful, the manticore is bad but not useless, the ogryns are great, the russ is great and the baneblade is great. 2 units I don't consider worthwhile is actually about average to low for me if I haven't forgotten one.

Ogryn are the Guards version of the walker for all intents and purposes, except they can be suppressed, disrupted, and suffer from decreasing DPS as model loss weakens the squad.