So now I want a sound card...

[MagnusTheReD]

I want surround sound in video games, you see, to hear assholes sneaking up behind me.
Also, good sound quality for audio, and HD movies is much desired.

I had one of those bullshit "virtual 7.1 surround" gaming headsets (Razer Megalodon, specifically), but it doesn't do shit in FPS games, and the sound quality is not exactly what I would expect from 140$ headphones...
And now that it died on my (after just three months of use), time to try something else.
Just now I read that pairing a quality soundcard with some high-end headphones can do what all those expensive "gaming" headsets are advertised to do, but never deliver.

Question is, which card do I get?
I'm a total noob in this area (if that's not clear by now), so any advice at all would be welcome.
As it is, I have my eyes set at those two cards:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6829132014
and
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6829102019
Mainly because those are the two best cards that my local retailer has in stock (I find ordering sensitive electronics from abroad a bit... unnerving).

Which one of those better suits my needs, you suppose?
I don't have a problem paying more for the Asus one, but only if it actually offers something I would find useful.

With that said, if anyone can suggest anything better, I'll be glad to hear about it!

Thanks in advance.

[The Kernel]

It really depends on whether you are dead set on headphones or not. Most of the value proposition of the higher end soundcards are better OPAMPs which really come into play if you are going with the analog out route.

However, I've never found headphones really that compelling for surround sound purposes. Most of the "surround" headphones are junk and all of the true high end headphones are stereo only and don't bother with this surround business. If you are interested in real surround sound you probably want to go with actual speakers if that is an option. If you do go with a more traditional 5.1 system then you really don't need anything more than the X-Fi card--just pipe everything out over a digital optical connector and be done with it.

As far as speakers go, this really depends on your budget. Most computer gamers really like the various levels of Logitech speakers (mostly because they are highly integrated) and can be had for anywhere from $100 up to $300 depending on how much power you want.

If you want to take a step up from there you can go with an entry level home theater system like the excellently priced Energy 5.1 Take Classic system which you can get for $400. This is an amazing package for the price and much better than anything that Logitech or any other "computer" speaker might have, but the downside is that you will need to provide your own receiver. If you get something like the Onkyo TX-SR308 (which is perfectly fine for this purpose) it'll run you about $200. So figure $600 all in for the speakers and $100 for the sound card, but you'll have home theater grade sound in a nice package.

[Starglider]

7.1 output should be the last thing on your list. Unless you have spectacularly awful motherboard sound, a discrete soundcard should be the second to last thing on your list. The first and second things should be a good set of speakers and a good amplifier. If you have the budget for it, get a proper set of high-fi / home cinema speakers and an A/V receiver to drive them. The sound quality will be vastly superior to any crappy set of computer speakers Creative et al might try to sell you. If you have a decent graphics card that supports audio over HDMI use that to connect to the receiver, although for most most games and listening setups, 5.1 analog output via the three headphone jacks on the motherboard is fine. If you're stuck with headphones I'm afraid there's just not much you can do; no pair of headphones can give you a decent bass experience in games, and as Kernel mentioned there aren't any that do a really good job of surround sound either. It's actually physically impossible for even multi-driver headphones to get this completely right, because even relatively small changes in head orientation do matter for sound localisation.

Personally I have a set of six high end floorstanding speakers, two 15" active subs and a dual center in the games/movie room. My workstation has a 5.1 Creative computer speaker set. The former is vastly better sound quality, but switching the receiver between 7.1 and 5.1 mode is barely noticeable even on 7.1 content (the extra speakers are mostly there to fill the soundfield). Honestly the thing that makes the most difference in games is the subwoofers, gunshots and explosions are just awesome. Manufacturers try to pretend that crappy little underpowered subs will do the job if you overdrive them until they're clipping at least half the time, but this is bullshit. For decent bass there is no substitute for inches (specifically, subsonic roll-off), watts and stereo drivers.

[Seggybop]

If you're stuck with headphones I'm afraid there's just not much you can do; no pair of headphones can give you a decent bass experience in games, and as Kernel mentioned there aren't any that do a really good job of surround sound either. It's actually physically impossible for even multi-driver headphones to get this completely right, because even relatively small changes in head orientation do matter for sound localisation.

It is definitely possible to get accurate positioning for games (though much less likely with the ridiculous multiple driver gimmick headsets)-- many "pro" gamers consider a proper set of headphones to be critical to detecting the enemy's approach. Arguably it's actually easier to get a precise setup with headphones than speakers because you don't have to deal with the acoustics of your entire room.

I think a lot of the hate for using headphones for surround comes from people who bought sets advertised specifically as 5.1/7.1 and packed with a silly array of crappy little drivers. You really only want a pair of normal high-quality headphones + the processing necessary to simulate the attenuation from sound interacting with the ear differently based on direction/distance [Dolby Headphone for example]. The simulation works way better than attempting to actually emit sound from different locations within the earcup and doesn't compromise the quality of the driver.

There are a lot of threads on head-fi explaining various methods of getting proper surround sound from headphones if you feel like trying it out.

Personally, I don't care much at all about extreme positioning accuracy, so I'm quite happy sitting in the middle of my 8 large speakers.

Serious body-shaking bass is of course impossible with headphones, though it's not hard to find ones that can produce sufficiently low frequencies.

[The Kernel]

It is definitely possible to get accurate positioning for games (though much less likely with the ridiculous multiple driver gimmick headsets)-- many "pro" gamers consider a proper set of headphones to be critical to detecting the enemy's approach. Arguably it's actually easier to get a precise setup with headphones than speakers because you don't have to deal with the acoustics of your entire room.

Except that headphones can only process two channels of audio. It doesn't matter how good the acoustics are of the cans if they don't have positional audio data to work with.

I think a lot of the hate for using headphones for surround comes from people who bought sets advertised specifically as 5.1/7.1 and packed with a silly array of crappy little drivers. You really only want a pair of normal high-quality headphones + the processing necessary to simulate the attenuation from sound interacting with the ear differently based on direction/distance [Dolby Headphone for example]. The simulation works way better than attempting to actually emit sound from different locations within the earcup and doesn't compromise the quality of the driver.

Dolby Headphone and other downsampling techniques will not produce anything remotely like true positional sound, they are merely gimmicks. You just can't get accurate surround audio out of two channels--there is no conceivable way around this.

Headphones are fantastic for music and even home theater, but the OP mentioned the importance of positional information for gaming and for that you can't get around the need for real speakers.

[The Kernel]

Personally I have a set of six high end floorstanding speakers, two 15" active subs and a dual center in the games/movie room.

Dual 15" subs? Why on Earth would you possibly need that unless your movie room is 1000 sq feet? A single high quality 12" sub would be more than enough to fill any reasonably sized room (500 sq feet or less).

Subwoofers are critically important to great sounding home theater, but dual 15" subs is overkill in virtually any situation.

[MagnusTheReD]

Thanks for all your replies, guys.

I'm sorry, I should've made it clear from the beginning - speakers are absolutely out of the question for me.
Sound isolation is virtually non-existent in my place - I live on the ground floor, with a large apartment building less than 10 meters away from my single layer window, and on top of that, the room with the computer has a back door leading straight to the block's parking lot. That's a reinforced metal door, but I think it actually amplifies outside noises...
So basically, I can hear my neighbors breathe when they take a shit. Masturbating becomes a real challenge in those conditions

So I make do with headphones.
And I understand that this "rad soundcard+headphones" setup will never produce real surround, not in the quality of a set of real speakers, but I read testimonies of people who have this kind of setup, and they say that it's still possible to get some degree of accurate positioning effect.

So it may not be perfect, but the way I see it, it's the best setup for my needs, because a) it's the best kind of surround I'm ever gonna get in my situation, since "digital surround headphones" are useless, and b), sound quality in music and movies is not a small priority for me, which, if i understand correctly, is very much achievable with this setup.

So the only remaining question is - which card?
As I understand, the Creative card is not as good for sound quality as the Asus one, so my question is whether or not the Xonar can handle games well enough, because if I'm gonna get a set of high-end headphones, and want my card to be able to deliver the quality...

[starslayer]

If you get high impedance headphones, you'll want the ASUS for its built-in headphone amp. Otherwise you can save some money and get the X-Fi. Either should offer an audible improvement over onboard sound. Either soundcard will provide positional audio over headphones for games; I only have experience with the X-Fi's CMSS-3D, which worked very well. I have also heard good things about Dolby Headphone, which the ASUS uses. So really, the way I see it, your choice comes down to whether you need that headphone amp.

[MagnusTheReD]

So really, the way I see it, your choice comes down to whether you need that headphone amp.

Alright, thanks for mentioning that - I initially thought to get the soundcard before I choose the headphones, but now I see that it's gonna have to be the other way around.
Thanks for the info, buddy.

[The Kernel]

Which headphones you get entirely depends on your budget. How much do you want to spend?

Either way, I'd recommend something full size and open for the best performance. Sennheiser makes the best (at least as far as value and consistency across their range) so I would go with one of those.

Depending on the price, I would recommend the following:

Sennheiser HD448 ($100)
Sennheiser HD558 ($170)
Sennheiser HD595 ($230)
Sennheiser HD650 ($400)

You get what you pay for here, although any of these headphones will provide great sound. It all depends on how much you want to pay.

Also, if you are really serious about headphone performance, you may want to go with a soundcard from Auzentech. Both the X-Meridian and the X-Fi Forte will suite your needs and if the built in headphone amp isn't good enough for you they have a whole range of amp upgrades depending on how much you want to spend from $20 all the way to $200+.

[Seggybop]

Except that headphones can only process two channels of audio. It doesn't matter how good the acoustics are of the cans if they don't have positional audio data to work with.

And you only have two ears. Your brain determines positioning based on the way the shape of your ear interacts with the sound. Binaural recordings made with a dummy head like this are generally quite effective at replicating the original positioning.

Dolby Headphone and other downsampling techniques will not produce anything remotely like true positional sound, they are merely gimmicks. You just can't get accurate surround audio out of two channels--there is no conceivable way around this.

Dolby Headphone takes a 6/8 channel source and downsamples it to 2 channels while slightly modifying the output of each mixed channel to simulate how it would be attenuate from interacting with your outer ear. The additional channels exist; they're encoded for your brain. It's actually kind of similar to older surround matrixing techniques that would feed the receiver a stereo signal that it would decode into more discrete channels.

[The Kernel]

And you only have two ears. Your brain determines positioning based on the way the shape of your ear interacts with the sound. Binaural recordings made with a dummy head like this are generally quite effective at replicating the original positioning.

Your evading the point. With only two channels worth of audio data available there are strict limits to what you can conceivably do.

Dolby Headphone takes a 6/8 channel source and downsamples it to 2 channels while slightly modifying the output of each mixed channel to simulate how it would be attenuate from interacting with your outer ear. The additional channels exist; they're encoded for your brain. It's actually kind of similar to older surround matrixing techniques that would feed the receiver a stereo signal that it would decode into more discrete channels.

...I think you just made my point for me unless you honestly think that matrix Dobly ProLogic II is not total crap compared to true 5.1 encoding like Dolby Digital or DTS.

[MagnusTheReD]

Which headphones you get entirely depends on your budget. How much do you want to spend?

Either way, I'd recommend something full size and open for the best performance. Sennheiser makes the best (at least as far as value and consistency across their range) so I would go with one of those.

I'm thinking about something in the range of 200$ - around the price of the card itself.
Of the ones you mentioned, I like the HD595 set, but before deciding, I'm gonna take a stroll to the local electronics and music-stuff retailers, to see what they're offering.

Also, if you are really serious about headphone performance, you may want to go with a soundcard from Auzentech. Both the X-Meridian and the X-Fi Forte will suite your needs

The biggest problem for me is to find where I could get such a thing locally. Few shops around here offer anything more substantial by Creative than what I have already mentioned in the OP. The ones that do are kinda questionable, I'm reluctant to order anything from them...
I'll keep looking, though.

I did find something else at my fav shop:
http://www.asus.com.au/Product.aspx?P_I ... T9vTWHLHk8
What is that thing? Why is there an HDMI port on a sound card?

[The Kernel]

I'm thinking about something in the range of 200$ - around the price of the card itself.
Of the ones you mentioned, I like the HD595 set, but before deciding, I'm gonna take a stroll to the local electronics and music-stuff retailers, to see what they're offering.

I have the HD595s personally, they are a solid headphone and are very well constructed. They will serve you quite well.

I did find something else at my fav shop:
http://www.asus.com.au/Product.aspx?P_I ... T9vTWHLHk8
What is that thing? Why is there an HDMI port on a sound card?

The idea is that you can use the soundcard as a passthrough in case you want to hook your system up to a home theater receiver. Totally overkill for what you are doing.

Really, all you need is a soundcard with decent software processing and a good headphone amp.

[Seggybop]

Your evading the point. With only two channels worth of audio data available there are strict limits to what you can conceivably do.

It's more like you're evading the reality that human heads only have two inputs. No matter how many discrete sources of sound exist in the world, they're being downmixed into two channels and then upmixed in your brain. The factors the brain uses to determine what the original positioning was are fairly well understood and possible to simulate. It's understandable that maybe whatever system you tried didn't work out for you, but it's silly to claim that it's impossible to generate proper positional audio without > 2 channels.

...I think you just made my point for me unless you honestly think that matrix Dobly ProLogic II is not total crap compared to true 5.1 encoding like Dolby Digital or DTS.

Good thing human brains aren't running Dolby ProLogic, right? ...

[MagnusTheReD]

I have the HD595s personally, they are a solid headphone and are very well constructed. They will serve you quite well.

I like the reviews people give to this set.

Totally overkill for what you are doing.

That's what I figured, too.
It even looks... excessive, somehow...

Really, all you need is a soundcard with decent software processing and a good headphone amp.

So I'm rather off with the Xonar card, as it comes with a built-in amp, so I won't have to complicate my life any further by buying even more hardware I know nothing about...