Shadowrun: Returns Alpha

[TheFeniX]

What we've got so far is X-Com:EU with more ugly. I don't have a lot to add, except there are ways to bring old games and IPs into the 21st century without having them look and play marginally better than Fallout 2.

[Stark]

It'd be fine if the UI didn't intentionally suck so bad. Amusingly the SNES game had no UI at all and is arguably better that way. :v

[weemadando]

I love the area of effect UI that doesn't actually help at all.

[TheFeniX]

It's an alpha, so maybe we'll get a better UI..... yea... anyways:

I like how they play up the interaction system of the guard who lets a person, somehow concealing a 4-foot-long straight blade while wearing what I assume is skin-tight leather and sporting a ridiculous mohawk (fuck, even FASA writers make fun of that shit in numerous source-books), run up to them and all he says is "Scan your SIN." Because, that's totally what a Renraku security guard protecting a "super-secret base of evil" would do. He would then also stand still while the sword is drawn and he's murdered. IMMERSION!

These guys never had a RP session with a decent GM, if they ever RPed at all.

The Genesis version kind of had the same issues (I did however love the random encounters), but we're talking like 1994 people. This is 2013, step your shit up. Then again, it's not like AAA devs don't pull shit like this all the time.

[Stark]

The best is all the fapping over screen-obscuring menus full of RPG bullshit stats and crap. Shadowrun COULD be a really fast paced game of quick thinking and situation management but DERP nerds like their shit the same.

What's up with the art design anyway? Is not 80s chic PCBs and lasers and it's not ultramodern HD workflows. It's grey rectangles full of reams of boring spreadsheet. Giant lol at the huge up and down arrows.

[TheFeniX]

Shadowrun could easily be a great 3rd person cover-shooter with an in-depth character system. Basically, Mass Effect with less suck in the combat area. The problem would be handling reaction enhancing cyberware and magic (which was a huge imbalancer in early builds of the PnP system and hard to translate to a real-time system). Hell, even a NWNs system would work better than what we're seeing so far (turn-based, yet real-time action) and it wouldn't be doomed to look "stylized" (Read: dated).

But there's likely two reasons they went with what they have:

1. As you said, they think nerds want a slow-paced turn based port of the old tile and turn-based D&D computer games. But Shadowrun was always designed to be fast-paced and deadly, and FASA kept moving towards that with later releases.

2. They don't have to compete with anyone using their current isometric system. No one will compare the game to Mass Effect, Gears of War, Skyrim, etc. No stupid internet posts of "lol Trolls are just rip-offs of Krogans." It's safe and going to doom this game to about as much fame as it's 360 counterpart.

[Stark]

Turn based can be fast. Turn based doesn't have to be boring, it doesn't have to be clunky team management and tile counting. It turns out computers can do maths real good, so the player shouldn't have to worry about that shit. But like you said, game is Jagged Alliance 2.

What's particularly sad is the lack of interaction - desks are obstacles, walk around them. It's fucking Shadowrun; blow the desk up. Dive over the desk. Set the desk on fire. Naaaaaaa. Just make it like we remember Jagged Alliance!

And seriously, giant green arrows of AK select. What's a right click? What's a context menu? It's TOTT HARD that's what.

[TheFeniX]

They're developing for iphones and shit too: the concept of right-clicking can't be brought to those system (even though it totally fucking can).

And you're right about the interactive environment. Some of the most fun we had in RP sessions was using the environment to our advantage and the failures that come when dice rolls go bad. Like Shelley's Psyad fucking up an athletics roll when trying to vault a bar (the drink serving kind) to get into cover and knocking himself unconscious after he broke through to the other side when he slammed into it.

I can't think of the last game developer that understood the actual reason people RP (besides being unpopular): the advantage to having a game and rules that account for when shit goes wrong (or right) and allowing the characters to do crazy shit. Instead it's: "Hey, let's just do what the one game developer did 20 years ago with 1990s technological limitations." Good lord, even X-Com:EU lets you vault low cover. I'll honestly be surprised if they even implement spells outside the combat tree.

Don't get me wrong: I'm totally buying this game no matter how terrible it is.

[Stark]

Yeah, it totally fucking can. Indeed, those platforms are usually way better at context shit because a) necessity and b) not hidebound to 1992 mouse 'experience'. SIGH.

And 'modern' RP systems are almost always built on the hook LIKE XYZ POPULAR ACTION FLICK. It was forgivable years and years ago that people didn't interact much with the environment (and in JA going through a window took way too much of your TIME JUICE to be very useful) but nowadays there's no reason why every such motion shouldn't be a paper-cloud creating, monitor-smashing path of dive. Without good environment interaction, a whole type of play is useless anyway (ie the remote spirits/rigging/hacking business). Fucking SIGH. Just make Fallout but with BLUE GLOWIES. Failure states (considering the game shouldn't be a tacticool high lethality game) shouldn't even be a big deal! Oh noes I fell off my precarious roof perch... so what? It's not like the badguys will get a free turn and wipe out your whole team now like in Xcom.

By buying it you're just making yourself a dot point on the 'all the market wants is same same same' graph. Everyone who buys it belongs on a fucking list we can pull out next time someone says WHY NO INNOVATORS.

[TheFeniX]

It amuses me the "free move" mechanic from X-Com made the combat even slower rather than speeding it up like it was intended to do. It's like they really didn't understand that player's would react to it by slow moving their forces up 1-2 per turn rather than charging for flanks and cover like the hilariously contrived tutorial. But in that game, we did see a movement system that didn't make me want to kill myself.

And I won't attempt to justify my decision to buy this game, except to say I'll only skip it if it decides to go the same route as Shadowrun 360 by being a Shadowrun game in name only, which I think is impossible at this point. I will say that you will never catch me posting anything near the line of "why doesn't the market innovate?"

[Stark]

Yeah, it was probably supposed to make the game faster, but by punishing an 'incorrect' opening of a monster closet with complete destruction it made the game hugely save scummy. Hooray for Firaxis, our lords and masters? Who could have POSSIBLY FORSEEN this would happen? Not 200 beta testers high on getting in first, that's for sure.

And look so long as you know that you are owned by brands that's fine. Not only wasting money but proving everyone who wants to make backwards games from 1991 right.

[Lord Pounder]

I saw the video on IGN at the weekend. Looks almost like a direct port of the SNES version, graphics look like Fallout Tactics.

I'm a huge fan of the old Genesis version, I still have my Megadrive and a US/UK adapter just to play it, the last Shadowrun game sucked monkey balls, I hope this doesn't go the same way.

[TheFeniX]

I dug up this old interview I missed out on earlier. I won't quote it, but there are a few things that interest me. Are Mages losing the ability to summon? Why are all the spirits listed under shaman? Also, Toxics are fun, but will likely just be a stronger than average mob, which is a shame. Is there literally going to be no planning or legwork, two large staples of Shadowrun the older games missed out on?

“Rather, players start with a representative Shadowrun character archetype and are then free to grow their character as they wish, spending Karma points to choose any skill or ability available in the game.”

You don't start as an archetype in Shadowrun. Those merely exist to give new player's a fast "in" to the game. You aren't ditching a class system if you have to chose one at the start, even if you can learn other skills as you go. I don't care if my mage can learn "Firearms: SMGs," because every mage I ever made had some type of non-magic combat skill. You know, otherwise you're useless in numerous situations.

Weisman Says: “Physical Adepts are more than mere martial artists, they are highly specialized spell casters with combat spells such as Killer Hands, Distance Strike, Mystic Armor, Traceless Walk, and Quick Strike.”

Yea, um. The whole point of physical adepts was that they channeled their mana inward, not outward. Hence, they don't cast spells. Maybe it was a wording fail. Also, no elemental or sorcery adepts? Shame really. I think Initiation and Cybermancy might have made nice additions.

Meh, this game is really shaping up to be a reskinned combination of the SNES and Genesis games and I still have the Genesis version.

[Stark]

Everyone should just go play Syndicate anyway. I got my copy back recently, and it's all the cybershots you could want.

[The Dark]

Weisman Says: “Physical Adepts are more than mere martial artists, they are highly specialized spell casters with combat spells such as Killer Hands, Distance Strike, Mystic Armor, Traceless Walk, and Quick Strike.”

Yea, um. The whole point of physical adepts was that they channeled their mana inward, not outward. Hence, they don't cast spells. Maybe it was a wording fail.

Probably. Killer Hands and Mystic Armor are adept powers from the 4e rulebook (page 188). Distance Strike, Quick Strike, and Traceless Walk are all adept powers from Awakenings (pages 117-118). So everything he mentioned is an existing adept power, despite his calling them spells.

[TheFeniX]

Everyone should just go play Syndicate anyway. I got my copy back recently, and it's all the cybershots you could want.

I've been talking to my gaming buddies about this, but I've not found anywhere to buy a digital copy, event though I will put up with EA's bullshit for $9.

Probably. Killer Hands and Mystic Armor are adept powers from the 4e rulebook (page 188). Distance Strike, Quick Strike, and Traceless Walk are all adept powers from Awakenings (pages 117-118). So everything he mentioned is an existing adept power, despite his calling them spells.

This is a gameplay issue though. I'm assuming he misspoke due to Killing Hands. Having to "cast" Mystic Armor defeats a major benefit to adept powers: they cannot be countered, don't require sustainment, nor use spell locks that can be targeted through Astral Space. I doubt much of that will make it into new Shadowrun though. Adepts will likely just be spellcasters for ease of programming.

[Stark]

On 360 the only people in pub servers are the guys who could never work out your wireless hacking chip could work from more than 1m away, so it's a bit tragic. It definitely needed work on the balance/progression front but its fast and has constant hacking of shit and huge explosions. Just watch out for the electron mace.

[The Dark]

Probably. Killer Hands and Mystic Armor are adept powers from the 4e rulebook (page 188). Distance Strike, Quick Strike, and Traceless Walk are all adept powers from Awakenings (pages 117-118). So everything he mentioned is an existing adept power, despite his calling them spells.

This is a gameplay issue though. I'm assuming he misspoke due to Killing Hands. Having to "cast" Mystic Armor defeats a major benefit to adept powers: they cannot be countered, don't require sustainment, nor use spell locks that can be targeted through Astral Space. I doubt much of that will make it into new Shadowrun though. Adepts will likely just be spellcasters for ease of programming.

On a similar for ease of programming note, I could see them being set up as similar to spells, but having them be "toggles" rather than spam-casts, and reducing Essence when toggled on. It wouldn't quite mesh with how Shadowrun adepts are supposed to work, but it would give the adept player more greeblies to play with, which designers seem to like, particularly if they allow adepts to take more powers than their Essence could fuel (so that some have to be off at any given time).

edit: there is a preview button for a reason.

[Stark]

I'm not sure how important its adherence to awful dice rules will be to whether or not it sucks; its deliberately backward so whatever implementation they use will probably be clunky and terrible. One day RP ports will realise that heaps of stupid mechanics aren't necessary when you have a computer.

[Serafina]

On a similar for ease of programming note, I could see them being set up as similar to spells, but having them be "toggles" rather than spam-casts, and reducing Essence when toggled on. It wouldn't quite mesh with how Shadowrun adepts are supposed to work, but it would give the adept player more greeblies to play with, which designers seem to like, particularly if they allow adepts to take more powers than their Essence could fuel (so that some have to be off at any given time).

edit: there is a preview button for a reason.

Thats actually a houserule i have seen used in various versions: Give Adepts a pool of powers, and they can activate the amount they could normally have (=equal their Essence). Most commonly seen is just a pool of Essence x2, but i've also seen it as Initiation metamagic. Swapping generally requires some sort of ritual that is long enough that it doesnt fit into combat, again with different versions and some causing burn.

Regardless of version, it has the nice effect to make Adepts more versatile and more than just a "magical street samurai"

[TheFeniX]

I'm not sure how important its adherence to awful dice rules will be to whether or not it sucks; its deliberately backward so whatever implementation they use will probably be clunky and terrible. One day RP ports will realise that heaps of stupid mechanics aren't necessary when you have a computer.

It's not the dice rules, it's the role Psyads play in the game because they are at the basic level a Street Sam without a lot of the drawbacks. They are notoriously hard to spot for what they are, which makes them excellent for clandestine roles. They also outshine mages in many areas due to low amounts of "build-up" and their ability to keep going for far longer. Part of this is that there's no "flash" to a Psyad: no big mana surges from spell casting nor loud bangs from gun-fire (or just one extremely good shot). They also have little to no issues passing for a normal person which is extremely useful in SR and they could do so and still be extremely lethal.

It's cool they were dumped in the original games considering the time, but I don't see the point in just having a melee-range spellcaster.

Thats actually a houserule i have seen used in various versions: Give Adepts a pool of powers, and they can activate the amount they could normally have (=equal their Essence). Most commonly seen is just a pool of Essence x2, but i've also seen it as Initiation metamagic. Swapping generally requires some sort of ritual that is long enough that it doesnt fit into combat, again with different versions and some causing burn.

Regardless of version, it has the nice effect to make Adepts more versatile and more than just a "magical street samurai"

That seems hideously broken considering 2nd and 3rd edition rules. Maybe 4th edition toned them down (like 3rd addition tried and failed to), but even 3rd edition Psyads were murder-machines even before factoring in Initiation and Weapon Foci. But it wasn't really just their combat prowess that broke them. It was that, unlike a Sammy who would set off a metal detector from a mile away or twitch like an addict with Reflex increase and unlike mages who were easy to pick off due to focus overuse and the ability to fight off spells from the Astral, Psyads had little to no "build-up" before they could literally murder an entire room of people. If a player was smart enough to put points into Charisma and fast-talk.... dear lord... That's hard to balance as a GM for role-play purposes because you just don't see a decently built Psyad coming.

If one of my players had the ability to swap 6-12 magic points in powers around at creation, even requiring a day or two to do so, he would seriously overshadow the rest of my players and I would have little recourse besides just dumping other overpowered Psyads at him or fudging a lot of dice-rolls, which would be railroading.

[TheFeniX]

Game is coming out in a month and things just keep getting.... I don't know, make your own decisions. But I just read a bunch of "we'd have done X, but we'd need more monies to do so" style comments from the devs that annoyed me more than a bit. Now, I don't understand what's involved in game development or how many boxes of doughnuts are needed each day to keep things running. But considering what we (aren't) getting for $2 million, what would there be if they only got the original $400K? Copies of SNES and Genesis emulators and the original ROMs?

Right now, there's no looting of corpses which isn't a huge deal since infinite ammo, but it's their excuse that gets me: we need more money. The matrix looks like a reskinning of the default game because "we needed more money." Sidenote: I always liked how decking in the Genesis version felt like you were playing a completely different game, so this RPG-Maker version is extremely disappointing.

The unofficial FAQ is worth a chuckle as well.

[A-02] Q: Are there any downsides to picking a metahuman race for your character?
A: We reflect the pros and cons of each metahuman race in terms of stats bonuses at character creation.

I don't think he understood the question.

[A-02] Q: What will the save system be like?
A: We're planning a checkpoint system. No one on the team likes checkpoints better than save any time you want. But we're a small team with a LOT to do and save games are complicated. Thanks for understanding.

"We totally hate what we implemented but programming is haaaaard."

Backers got jacked as there is no update process for the non-DRM copies, requiring the game to be redownloaded for each patch..... Also, no DLC integration unless you get the DRM version due to a contracting issues with Microsoft. I think this one might be a $1.24 buy like with Legendary.

[Stark]

Maybe they REALLY want to be able to savescum and are sad that checkpoints don't let you. ;V