So... A DND friend is trying to turn STGOD into a 'real' game

[Crossroads Inc.]

Ok so...Yeah, hear me out on this.

About two months ago, I was talking to a friend of mine who is a HARD CORE DND player as well as overall "Numbers" nerd, who designs games in his spare time. I was waxing wistfully about the Good Ol Days of our STGOD's, how they worked and how free and liberating they were for Role Play purposes. Well, as I said that was about Two months ago.
Two days ago, I get an email from him with this google-Doc link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tnY ... sp=sharing

It was apparently a "Work in progress" of a what he says is a marketable version of the STGOD concept... AND IT'S OVER THIRTY PAGES LONG!!!
Not sure if he is missing the concept of our free spirited game. But was damned impress with what he is laying out!

[madd0ct0r]

Have you checked he is ok with you sharing it?

[Crossroads Inc.]

Oh yeah I probably;y should mention that.
Yeah part of why he shared it with me in the first place was specifically to share it here to get peoples opinions of it.
He wanted to make sure no one would feel like he was stealing their ideas.

[Sea Skimmer]

Lol he's certainly not stealing the idea of a STGOD by having 33 pages of rules and everything laid out in less then ideal points charts, and notes that this is apparently not the limit of the planned rules!

This feels a bit like the perfect combination of math and not detailed enough to not be useful to anyone who would actually be willing to read 33 pages of rules though. It doesn't encourage developing unique civilizations with unique advantages, the points system is far too simple for that, yet this is what propelled the good STGODs forward, and it doesn't really let you play by the book either. Maybe that'd change with his full game guide. I can see how someone who has never physically seen a STGOD might come up with rules like this though, a valiant effort to ride down the Russian guns.

The most successful STGOD style games have all been ones where the people participating knew each other fairly well, so that they could be a dick, but not go too far, and be curbed by the others in a similar manner. The point of structure was that nothing you did could be a complete ass pull unlike a TGOD which was all about who could come up with the most outlandish ass pull. But if you make everything play wise static enough at a certain point you must realize you are no longer trying to play even a casual game. Your really just doing this as collaborative writing. That can be fun too, but it's not the same thing and it doesn't need rules at all, which probably would restore the fun factor too.

Luckily we've elected a grand master of TGOD gameplay to LARP being president of the United States so atl east everyone knows how that works now!


Anyway, not that this is relevant, but the scary thing is some insane people still use ASVS last I checked. I dunno how many of us from those days, and I was barely a part, are still around but lol at how long this has all lasted. Not what I expected when it helped me get through some real tough days back in Middle School.

[madd0ct0r]

I've printed it, will read and give feedback at somepoint.

[Sea Skimmer]

I was thinking more after the pre caffine thoughts above, and if this is to be serious it really needs a dedicated section on asymmetrical combat, and like, a limit on what this can do per turn since this is after all a deliberate exercise on rulemongering.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Ahoy!

So of the few responses I got, you gave the best actual "review" of what I had posted. I know a few others said they would read through it, but no word from them. In any case, the main part of what you said interested me here:

This feels a bit like the perfect combination of math and not detailed enough to not be useful to anyone who would actually be willing to read 33 pages of rules though. It doesn't encourage developing unique civilizations with unique advantages, the points system is far too simple for that,

You say "Perfect combination of Math" which, I infer as a good thing in regards to the application of certain rules. But then saying "Not useful" as well as "doesn't encourage developing unique civilizations" Well that is what I wanted to ask more about. The rules as developed would seem to give total creative freedom. A person could come up with any civilization their heart desire or imagination could dream up. So when you say "Unique" I am curious if you are more referring to the rules and points side of things?

Because going off of the second part of what you say:

yet this is what propelled the good STGODs forward, and it doesn't really let you play by the book either. Maybe that'd change with his full game guide. I can see how someone who has never physically seen a STGOD might come up with rules like this though, a valiant effort to ride down the Russian guns.

To me, and many others, it was the focus on the Role Play, and creativity that made for some of the most amazing STGOD. Now clearly, that level of pure role-play free form cannot exist outside of our very specialized environment, especially with people who do not know one another way. Hence the addition of various rules and the point system.


One last thing, in case it is not becoming obvious...
The "Friend" is basically mean. I do not always have the best cred, and sometimes I put forth ideas in the frame of "Someone else suggested this" as I am not always the most confident in myself. Silly I know. Although your last line is very truthful, but rather the reverse of perhaps what you mean.

When you said "I can see how someone who has never physically seen a STGOD might come up with rules like this though". I am someone who has never played DnD, only a few Palladium based RPG's and as such, I have a rather limited understanding of what would be needed to make a functional rule set.

[madd0ct0r]

Dnd would not be a ruleset to do an stgod off.

Dont get too hungup on mathy rules. The evogames fad on reddit didnt need them, and i largely ignored them times i did play stgods here and elsewhere .

But game design is fun.
Microscope and Kingdom would be two places to start. Theres a mimigame at the start of Romance in The Air that recreates the ww1 buildup that could be a good place too.

As a novice player i would appreciate ways to get interactions going quickly, tips to frame and write scenes quickly. Tips on generating fun figureheads. Common mistakes like starting too small or not invading because you are worried about breaking the social contract.

A "play unsafe" for stgods, and set of not generic options and seeds to choose from to help you start.

[Sea Skimmer]

You say "Perfect combination of Math" which, I infer as a good thing in regards to the application of certain rules. But then saying "Not useful" as well as "doesn't encourage developing unique civilizations" Well that is what I wanted to ask more about. The rules as developed would seem to give total creative freedom. A person could come up with any civilization their heart desire or imagination could dream up. So when you say "Unique" I am curious if you are more referring to the rules and points side of things?

It means no matter how much work you put into your creation, it can't do anything that someone who put in 1% of the effort can, a comparison of two sets of points decides everything. That's boring and frustrating fast. You aren't gaining creative freedom, you've gained certainty of results.

STGODs were never meant for balance, the whole point of a STGOD was that it was a structured TGOD which mean you just couldn't engage in blatant powergaming from nowhere, and should by good faith leave people with a way out. Which for lol, a rigid points based system actually doesn't encourage because the result is predetermined. The most interesting factions I ever saw varied radically in strength, size and power and got played out in different ways. And a TGOD was an outgrowth of OBS which was entirely predicted on the maximum power gaming possible per post. Those were frankly more fun anyway for the actual effort required.

To me, and many others, it was the focus on the Role Play, and creativity that made for some of the most amazing STGOD. Now clearly, that level of pure role-play free form cannot exist outside of our very specialized environment, especially with people who do not know one another way. Hence the addition of various rules and the point system.

If you don't have good people to play with in a closed environment the entire effort is pointless, these games are far too protracted for it to be otherwise. I know of places that engage in pure world building sort of 'games' for large numbers of people and just negate the entire idea of actual combat though. But they are all filled with abandon factions too.

When you said "I can see how someone who has never physically seen a STGOD might come up with rules like this though". I am someone who has never played DnD, only a few Palladium based RPG's and as such, I have a rather limited understanding of what would be needed to make a functional rule set.

Games like that are predicated on predetermined settings which allow for fairly tight rule sets without detracting from the actual game intent. STGOD isn't, and yeah the ones here turned into collective fan fiction really early on. More rules you throw at this the less and less it has anything to do with the original idea.

[Raw Shark]

I agree with most of that, but this man could possibly benefit from a look at GURPS.

[madd0ct0r]

I agree with most of that, but this man could possibly benefit from a look at GURPS.

Id say kill it with fire, but that requires adjudication of four rule interactions, rolling a bunch of dice, and looking up the result on the table.

Gurps is gurps, and a valuable historical document, but not something id advocate for stgods

[Jub]

I'd say kill it with fire, but that requires adjudication of four rule interactions, rolling a bunch of dice, and looking up the result on the table.

Gurps is gurps, and a valuable historical document, but not something id advocate for stgods

Don't forget to flip through the entire fire splat book a cross reference the type of fuel, ignition source, and wind speed first. Then roll against material type and check the condition every second leap round to see if you need to roll anything from the core system.

But at least it beats Palladium's rules...

[Raw Shark]

I run the largest GURPS group in the entire... oh fuck it, everybody who wants to play GURPS has already joined, still trying at this point is just geek vanity... [shrugs and goes home]

[Sea Skimmer]

I played GURPS a long time ago, middle school maybe when table top stuff was still credible competition with video games and warhammer models cost too much for me to afford. It was interesting... for a short period. STGOD style game with GURPS rules might actually take longer then present age of the universe.

This whole concept, going to back to the original topic, it strikes me probably angled towards 'create your own worlds to play a single character RPG inside of' more so then being all that great for actually building major factions to directly pit against each other. That's got a lot to do with how SDN STGODs ended up playing out anyway, you could tell at an early point that a lot of people were more character focused then anything else.

[Elheru Aran]

warhammer models cost too much for me to afford.

They STILL cost too much. Pack of 5 Sternguard Veteran Space Marines=$50. Pack of 5 Astra Militarium Command Squad=$35. Commander Gabriel Seth of the Flesh Tearers=$25. LolwutawhellNOPE.

...that hasn't stopped me from dropping probably close to $500 in the past year or so on the shit and paints, though...

[Sea Skimmer]

I have other toys I spend that kind of money on now. But while sure while it's still really expensive as far as a Warhammer prices go I feel like the prices have not actually gone up as much as inflation since ~1999. My income meanwhile is a lot greater then as a middle schooler with a broken family and a side job who had to think carefully about which video game I could buy, let alone warhammer models. I was a ship modeler for a while though, still have my best pocket battleship, KGV and Iowa combination in a box somewhere. God was that stuff cheaper then Warhammer.... and god does a Deutschland look about perfect for Warhammer logic anyway. Because of course, Warhammer didn't invent that much, it's brilliance in no small part comes from mashing together real stuff.

Of course if I'd had more money to blow on plastic I doubt I'd have spent as much time online learning factual stuff, reading books and generally becoming the person I am now. So try not to have regrets about various unpleasant things, let alone any that involve money. I really like the internet for the democratizing effect it has on society like that, when I was in middle school some people thought I was in college, and nobody knew my income, background or anything else unless I told them. They judged me on what I brought to the text-table. Too bad people are dumb enough to vote Trump because of blog posts, but that's hardly a new problem. Kinda like as old as writing kind of problem. Ah well, bring on the corvette missile tank submarine fighters. With racing stripes.

[Eternal_Freedom]

warhammer models cost too much for me to afford.

They STILL cost too much. Pack of 5 Sternguard Veteran Space Marines=$50. Pack of 5 Astra Militarium Command Squad=$35. Commander Gabriel Seth of the Flesh Tearers=$25. LolwutawhellNOPE.

...that hasn't stopped me from dropping probably close to $500 in the past year or so on the shit and paints, though...

Yeah, WArhammer stuff is pricey...if you just look at it as a set of models. In my experience, a good 2000-point list (enough for a game lasting a couple hours at least) like I'm building at the moment will run to ~£500, depending on faction. But once you've spent it, you can use that army for game after game after game, for years. I dropped that much on my first major army back in 2013, five years later I still play games with it and thoroughly enjoy it. Suddenly £100 a year for a hobby isn't so bad. It's certainly a lot cheaper than, say, being an avid football (soccer) fan and buying season tickets/football shirts and so on.

[Elheru Aran]

warhammer models cost too much for me to afford.

They STILL cost too much. Pack of 5 Sternguard Veteran Space Marines=$50. Pack of 5 Astra Militarium Command Squad=$35. Commander Gabriel Seth of the Flesh Tearers=$25. LolwutawhellNOPE.

...that hasn't stopped me from dropping probably close to $500 in the past year or so on the shit and paints, though...

Yeah, WArhammer stuff is pricey...if you just look at it as a set of models. In my experience, a good 2000-point list (enough for a game lasting a couple hours at least) like I'm building at the moment will run to ~£500, depending on faction. But once you've spent it, you can use that army for game after game after game, for years. I dropped that much on my first major army back in 2013, five years later I still play games with it and thoroughly enjoy it. Suddenly £100 a year for a hobby isn't so bad. It's certainly a lot cheaper than, say, being an avid football (soccer) fan and buying season tickets/football shirts and so on.

The problem is... I don't play.

I'm more of a painter/modeler/converter type.

I'm considering giving doing commission painting a try, but not until I can get better than three models in approximately two months

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah I can see why that would be a problem then

[Raw Shark]

I'm considering giving doing commission painting a try, but not until I can get better than three models in approximately two months

I have a gaming friend who does that stuff really well and makes some money at it. His living room is a veritable museum of lovingly-detailed figures, mostly anime girls. He will never, ever get laid, but... money, I guess?

[Elheru Aran]

I'm considering giving doing commission painting a try, but not until I can get better than three models in approximately two months

I have a gaming friend who does that stuff really well and makes some money at it. His living room is a veritable museum of lovingly-detailed figures, mostly anime girls. He will never, ever get laid, but... money, I guess?

I'm married so the sex isn't a problem. Usually.

[Elheru Aran]

I'm considering giving doing commission painting a try, but not until I can get better than three models in approximately two months

I have a gaming friend who does that stuff really well and makes some money at it. His living room is a veritable museum of lovingly-detailed figures, mostly anime girls. He will never, ever get laid, but... money, I guess?

I'm married so the sex isn't a problem. Usually.

Okay, ghetto edit because that sounded a bit smarmy.

I -could- have been that person. All too easily. Still could be on occasion. But I try not to be too crazy about my nerdy interests. It helps that I have some slightly more mainstream interests to balance those out. I just happen to be on a 40K rip at the moment. I do need to get going on some woodwork though for Christmas presents. But yeah, my wife helps balance out my nerdiness because she's like... nearly the total polar opposite of me in that direction. Maybe not a polar opposite, she's not very sporty, but still, she's barely interested in that stuff.

But once I get back into the painting groove, perhaps I'll start advertising commission work at the local game stores. Not that there are that many, there's only like... two or three, max. Might be worth it though. Speed-painting armies isn't hard if the customer is okay with a minimalist base-wash-secondary colour approach.

[Sea Skimmer]

I suspect the market for painting models might be bigger then you think, cost dependent, not many people can do that well and fewer still actually want to sit down and focus on it. I pretty much gave up model shipbuilding, which as expensive as it was was nothing like Warhammer prices, because I just couldn't paint them worth damn and it didn't look good displaying them without paint, it just looked better then my paint jobs so most of my models are blanks. I think you might get some people buying models precisely because they know someone else will paint them reasonably.

Ironic that I've since made a lot of money painting home interiors and a couple church buildings with excellent detail work. But the fine details in that kind of work are just way different to implement and you can wipe off certain kinds of mistakes in real time.